Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Brad Johnson on April 10, 2017, 11:41:50 AM
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Overbooked a flight then had an employee wanting a seat. Asked for pax to voluntarily get off the flight. When none did they picked one and dragged him off by force.
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/04/10/police-violently-drag-man-from-united-plane-after-airline-reportedly-overbooked-flight.html
Their Facebook page is starting to smoke.
https://www.facebook.com/United/
In United's attempt to save face I'm guessing said passenger will eventually get an enormous apology from United corporate and a flight crew will be "enrolled in customer service training". If I were him I would insist on a free lifetime supply of family-size first class ticket vouchers.
Brad
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In United's attempt to save face I'm guessing said passenger will eventually get an enormous apology from United corporate and a flight crew will be "enrolled in customer service training". If I were him I would insist on a free lifetime supply of family-size first class ticket vouchers.
Brad
On some other airline other than United.
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Holy *expletive deleted*it...
I know what I'd have...
I'd have a team of lawyers and a lawsuit for, oh say, $100 million...
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Looks like United has already sanitized their facebook page, because I'm not seeing anything on it at all.
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Looks like United has already sanitized their facebook page, because I'm not seeing anything on it at all.
Comments on unrelated posts have taken a pointed and very unsavory tone.
Brad
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I was thinking in the past I had heard of airlines offering people incentives to get bumped to a later flight. Like cash or first class voucher or something. I figure someone would have volunteered if the incentives were good enough.
I wonder if they bothered to pull his luggage off the plane (assuming he had any).
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Many passengers filmed the incident on their phones, and one said the man was a doctor who was required to fly home for work.
Tyler Bridges tweeted, "Not a good way to treat a doctor trying to get to work because they overbooked."
"He told the police and the United employees he had to be at the hospital in the morning to see patients," Bridges further explained.
Yeah, because everyone knows doctors don't have enough money to afford good lawyers. :facepalm:
I would say the United employees chose poorly.
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Looks like United has already sanitized their facebook page, because I'm not seeing anything on it at all.
Page down a little.
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Comments on unrelated posts have taken a pointed and very unsavory tone.
Brad
Yea they have...Jeremy Griffith
Jeremy Griffith Hello, I am into BDSM, do I have to pay extra for the punch in the face? I noticed the doctor had three hired goons, is that a package deal or do I pay a la carte? All kidding aside, I am never, EVER flying United again, I could only imagine that happening in front of my kids, or god forbid happening to me. I used to fly you guys solely when you were Continental for business, but I can guarantee you Southwest will be getting my business in the future. No excuse is good enough for what you guys did.
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I was thinking in the past I had heard of airlines offering people incentives to get bumped to a later flight. Like cash or first class voucher or something. I figure someone would have volunteered if the incentives were good enough.
Yes, I've done that once before, for a free round trip to anywhere in the continental US, and I believe it was even on United. I've only done it once because on the probably 7-10 times I've been on a flight where they asked for someone to stay behind, other people got there ahead of me. A couple of times they started with stuff like "1000 frequent flyer miles" and worked their way up from there until they hooked a fish.
Nothing in the story indicates they offered an incentive. I have to wonder if for some reason they didn't, because I've never seen one turned down by the time they get to "free round trip ticket". There's pretty much always at least one person on a flight who's not in a big hurry.
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This is one instance where the Airline likely acted completely lawfully.
And are going to pay for it, good and hard.
Just a reminder, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's a good idea.
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OK, I was looking for a separate thread....
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This is one instance where the Airline likely acted completely lawfully.
And are going to pay for it, good and hard.
Just a reminder, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's a good idea.
This.
There are many ways to be right, but this is the worst way to do it.
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This is one instance where the Airline likely acted completely lawfully.
And are going to pay for it, good and hard.
Just a reminder, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's a good idea.
I seriously question that. What right do they have to get the police to force a paying passenger out of his seat, against his will? Seems that the police should also be paying very hard on this one, as well, since they were responding not to a security issue but a business practices issue.
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Seems United's attention has been gotten'd
https://www.facebook.com/United/photos/a.218041034900113.48865.199504650087085/1327123630658509/?type=3&theater
Comments range from brutally direct to outright hostility. Up less than ten minutes and already over 500 responses.
Brad
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The Blaze is reporting airline offered $400, then $800 and some free tickets. 2 of the 4 people needed to be bumped took the incentive.
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The Blaze is reporting airline offered $400, then $800 and some free tickets. 2 of the 4 people needed to be bumped took the incentive.
I don't ever recall cash offers when I ran into those circumstances. Hard to believe they could only find two people who were willing to be a little late to wherever they were going for $800 cash and free tickets. I'd do that in a heartbeat, including changing appointments and stuff if it were business travel. I would expect at least 25% of the passengers on that flight were just going home or to some leisure activity.
I'm not excusing United dragging the guy off the plane, but geez, I guess I'm out of touch with the definition of "good deal".
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This was posted in Brad's third link:
(https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17883841_10202808327565644_1849938854759907164_n.jpg?oh=b5e6417ccabae3e80c9c0b436aaedba6&oe=5952E998)
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I seriously question that. What right do they have to get the police to force a paying passenger out of his seat, against his will? Seems that the police should also be paying very hard on this one, as well, since they were responding not to a security issue but a business practices issue.
Yep. If the police are smart, they settle that one quick. It's not the coal mining days were the police were expected to be corporate goons. Cameras and regional newspapers made life hard for cops that saw themselves as the enforcement arm of whatever the local big business was. United Fruit still holds the world record, they practically owned the USMC for a couple decades.
The guy was demanding the service he paid for. While United legally can probably cancel a ticket for any or no reason, doing so to a doctor because they want to send an employee... That's just bad PR, right there. If a patient died, that'd be hilariously bad PR to the point were it would likely end up in a textbook somewhere.
Guy did nothing wrong other than being unhappy about being bumped. And he had a fairly correct view of the situation. I'm rarely one to believe certain classes deserve special treatment. "Doctor on the way to a hospital" warrants consideration. Ditto nurse, EMTs, whatever. Maybe if United was sending an emergency flight crew, mechanics, etc. But seriously, they couldn't find someone OTHER than a doctor to ask to give up their seats?
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"I'm not excusing United dragging the guy off the plane, but geez, I guess I'm out of touch with the definition of "good deal"."
I've not flown since the early 1990s (and I never intend to fly again), but I get the feeling that for a lot of people, given the monumental amount of *expletive deleted*it that they have to deal with security wise (squeeze your balls today, sir?) and the ever growing number of fees that people are less and less likely to respond to offers like this because it means doubling or even tripling down on the amount of *expletive deleted*it you have to go through.
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I seriously question that. What right do they have to get the police to force a paying passenger out of his seat, against his will? Seems that the police should also be paying very hard on this one, as well, since they were responding not to a security issue but a business practices issue.
The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force.
Just because a person has a ticket for a flight, that does not mean that person has a right to be on that flight. If United decides to remove a passenger for any legal reason, then United may do so and may request the police assist.
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"I'm not excusing United dragging the guy off the plane, but geez, I guess I'm out of touch with the definition of "good deal"."
I've not flown since the early 1990s (and I never intend to fly again), but I get the feeling that for a lot of people, given the monumental amount of *expletive deleted*it that they have to deal with security wise (squeeze your balls today, sir?) and the ever growing number of fees that people are less and less likely to respond to offers like this because it means doubling or even tripling down on the amount of *expletive deleted*it you have to go through.
Maybe. Or they were holding out for more money.
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Normally I view BuzzFeed on par with World Weekly or other trash grade tabloids, but this made me laugh:
"When asked why the airline had the man forcibly removed, and whether that was standard procedure in cases of overbooked flights, United refused to comment.
Instead they told BuzzFeed News all further questions should be referred to Chicago Police. BuzzFeed News contacted Chicago Police and were told to contact the Chicago Department of Aviation. When BuzzFeed News contacted the Chicago Department of Aviation they were transferred to a TSA message bank. A TSA spokesperson later told BuzzFeed News they were not involved and to contact Chicago Police."
Ah, yes, start the blame game. How the TSA got involved is a mystery. They're not cops, they're screeners.
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Normally I view BuzzFeed on par with World Weekly or other trash grade tabloids, but this made me laugh:
"When asked why the airline had the man forcibly removed, and whether that was standard procedure in cases of overbooked flights, United refused to comment.
Instead they told BuzzFeed News all further questions should be referred to Chicago Police. BuzzFeed News contacted Chicago Police and were told to contact the Chicago Department of Aviation. When BuzzFeed News contacted the Chicago Department of Aviation they were transferred to a TSA message bank. A TSA spokesperson later told BuzzFeed News they were not involved and to contact Chicago Police."
Ah, yes, start the blame game. How the TSA got involved is a mystery. They're not cops, they're screeners.
Not just blame but distance, as in let's get as far away from this one as we can, it won't end well. ;)
bob
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"The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force."
No.
MAJOR difference.
The passenger has already paid to be sitting in that seat. He's entered into a service contract with the airline (something you don't do just by walking into a brick and mortar store location).
Where's the due justification and cause for the police to be called into what is not a police matter?
It cannot be considered an trespassing issue, because A) the financial contract that exists between the passenger and the airline and B) because quietly sitting in your seat refusing a general cash offer to vacate the seat is NOT grounds to involve police.
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The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force.
The doctor was not looking for a gay wedding cake, and United is not a Christian Bakery. Therefore the doctor may be frog marched off the plane and bloodied up a bit. /sarc
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Meh. Grope 'em before they get on. Grab 'em & throw 'em out later on. Same-same.
The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force.
Just because a person has a ticket for a flight, that does not mean that person has a right to be on that flight. If United decides to remove a passenger for any legal reason, then United may do so and may request the police assist.
He should have had a wedding cake with him, with two grooms on it.
Ah, Doggy Daddy beat me to it.
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Ah, Doggy Daddy beat me to it.
24 seconds, bay-bee!! =D =D
And I see that in keeping with the topic you chose to phrase it as "beat me to it."
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"The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force."
No.
MAJOR difference.
The passenger has already paid to be sitting in that seat. He's entered into a service contract with the airline (something you don't do just by walking into a brick and mortar store location).
Where's the due justification and cause for the police to be called into what is not a police matter?
It cannot be considered an trespassing issue, because A) the financial contract that exists between the passenger and the airline and B) because quietly sitting in your seat refusing a general cash offer to vacate the seat is NOT grounds to involve police.
There's an entire section of United's Contract of Carriage (https://www.united.com/web/en-us/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec5) about overbooked flights and denying boarding/travel. The contract you alluded to gives them the right to kick him off the plane. They would have been required to offer him some compensation for doing so , but not once he broke the law. That gives them the right to just heave him off.
And had you flown recently you would have remembered the part in every flight where they say: "Failure to follow the Flight Crew's instructions is a violation of Federal Law". Once the crew told him to leave, and he didn't it was a criminal matter and the police were correct to be involved.
Not saying it's a good idea on United's part, nor that it looks good on the police, but both groups are very likely on pretty solid legal footing. The coming PR shitstorm should be epic, however.
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"The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force."
No.
MAJOR difference.
The passenger has already paid to be sitting in that seat. He's entered into a service contract with the airline (something you don't do just by walking into a brick and mortar store location).
Where's the due justification and cause for the police to be called into what is not a police matter?
It cannot be considered an trespassing issue, because A) the financial contract that exists between the passenger and the airline and B) because quietly sitting in your seat refusing a general cash offer to vacate the seat is NOT grounds to involve police.
My understanding of the law is the airline reserves the right to revoke the ticket for any reason. (With due compensation required.)
They enacted that clause in order to forcibly bump him off the plane and replace him with an employee.
From what I've been reading, the clauses MIGHT require that it be done pre-boarding, so there may be dispute about the legality of the bumping. (Which is why I said they "likely acted completely lawfully".)
My point was that, even if they were completely within the law (which there is some dispute), this was a monumentally stupid decision.
Also, they called the CHICAGO police. I'm seriously doubting they can legitimately claim to be surprised that violence ensued.
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And had you flown recently you would have remembered the part in every flight where they say: "Failure to follow the Flight Crew's instructions is a violation of Federal Law". Once the crew told him to leave, and he didn't it was a criminal matter and the police were correct to be involved.
And if they had instructed him to deboard at 30,000' ... ?
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And if they had instructed him to deboard at 30,000' ... ?
COMPLY!! CITIZEN!!!!
What? I don't make the rules, nor am I defending them. I just fly a lot, and unlike some folks I listen when they tell me the rules. It's the Feds. You can probably be arrested for failing to D.B. Cooper if told to.
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The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force.
Just because a person has a ticket for a flight, that does not mean that person has a right to be on that flight. If United decides to remove a passenger for any legal reason, then United may do so and may request the police assist.
Absolutely, the airline was 100% in the right legally.
Ethically? PR wise? Yeah, not so much. The airline industry generally relies on public bailouts every couple decades to remain 'profitable'. Kicking customers TOO much in the teeth isn't the best business decision, even if generally you get the government to foot the bill if things don't work out. Generally, this isn't meant literally.
Airlines gamble on overbooking. They assume X percent of people will cancel, and they get to keep the cancellation fees. It's legal but DOT legally requires the airlines to ask for volunteers in exchange for compensation. Of course, the compensation isn't mandated, so it could be one stale peanut. Then yes, they can involuntary bump folks. That is actually regulated. If they get you to your destination within an hour, you don't get squat. If one to two hours, 200% of one way fare. >2 hours, 400%, but only up to a $1350 max. Offering $800 is significantly cheaper than offering $1350 because the government makes you do so. Airlines don't complain about 'burdensome regulations' because they know they make far more off gaming overbooking. That's even without folks forgetting to get written confirmations and filing appropriately for the compensation.
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights
Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's a smart idea. It's an optics issue. The airlines logically shouldn't expect happiness or sympathy from the public with the overbooking thing. Calling the cops on someone sane, mostly law bidding and rational is a wild card. In this case, the airlines lost because the Chicago cops acted like... well, Chicago cops. It's not 1990's LAPD, but still.
Mal: You called the Feds.
Jayne: I got pinched!
Mal: Which is what happens when you call the Feds.
Fairness and whatnot doesn't matter to the public. If the guy was an oil company exec or on his way to a furry convention, this wouldn't be a consideration. Doctor is respectable enough. Airlines aren't usually beloved. United should just be very very thankful they arranged to have an Asian minority beat down on their aircraft. I'm quite sure that as bad as this is, their CEO was very very grateful the Chicago cops didn't beat down a law abidding black man on camera in their aircraft. THAT would have been a truly epic PR situation.
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And if they had instructed him to deboard at 30,000' ... ?
There is a fee for that.
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There's an entire section of United's Contract of Carriage (https://www.united.com/web/en-us/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec5) about overbooked flights and denying boarding/travel. The contract you alluded to gives them the right to kick him off the plane. They would have been required to offer him some compensation for doing so , but not once he broke the law. That gives them the right to just heave him off.
And had you flown recently you would have remembered the part in every flight where they say: "Failure to follow the Flight Crew's instructions is a violation of Federal Law". Once the crew told him to leave, and he didn't it was a criminal matter and the police were correct to be involved.
Not saying it's a good idea on United's part, nor that it looks good on the police, but both groups are very likely on pretty solid legal footing. The coming PR shitstorm should be epic, however.
My point is that United very likely violated their own policy, as it seems that technically they did not oversell the flight. They wanted to ship an employee somewhere else, and employees on company business don't pay.
You can't claim a violation of policy by the passenger if the airline didn't meet the standards required by its policy, either. If they get a pass to do that, essentially it means that there are no rules, and the airline could simply - and possibly legally - collect your money and simply fail to provide a flight at all, claiming everyone was "bumped."
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There is a fee for that.
That wins the internets for the day.
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My point is that United very likely violated their own policy, as it seems that technically they did not oversell the flight. They wanted to ship an employee somewhere else, and employees on company business don't pay.
You can't claim a violation of policy by the passenger if the airline didn't meet the standards required by its policy, either.
I don't know how UAL books their must-ride travelers, but at my airline the airline pays itself a fee. When I go to training, my reservation information shows a fee paid to book me positive space. Maybe that is the airline loophole.
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Then we still have the curious question of why were the Chicago police called instead of TSA?
Aren't airliners under Federal jurisdiction?
Makes you wonder if TSA was called and told them to SOD THE F'OFF so they went enforcement shopping.
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I imagine that next time United goes to the fed.gov hat in hand, asking for yet another bailout, they better hope that this video doesn't somehow show up ALL OVER THE NEWS again.
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Then we still have the curious question of why were the Chicago police called instead of TSA?
Aren't airliners under Federal jurisdiction?
Makes you wonder if TSA was called and told them to SOD THE F'OFF so they went enforcement shopping.
From one of the articles I read it wasn't Chicago PD. Rather, it was Chicago Aviation Police. Sworn LE, go through the same police academy (hence the same beat first ask questions later approach as regular CPD) but not allowed to carry firearms. Which is just about the only way this thing could have gotten worse.
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I don't know how UAL books their must-ride travelers, but at my airline the airline pays itself a fee. When I go to training, my reservation information shows a fee paid to book me positive space. Maybe that is the airline loophole.
Line item transfer between company accounts. Same thing happens when I go for required off-site training which, thank God, doesn't happen much anymore.
Legally I'm not sure whether it would be considered to be the same thing as a third-party paying customer. I would tend to think not.
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Then we still have the curious question of why were the Chicago police called instead of TSA?
Aren't airliners under Federal jurisdiction?
Makes you wonder if TSA was called and told them to SOD THE F'OFF so they went enforcement shopping.
TSA doesn't have any arrest powers (except Fed Air Marshals), that is why the airport police are there.
http://blog.tsa.gov/2016/07/tsa-myth-busters-do-tsa-officers-arrest.html (http://blog.tsa.gov/2016/07/tsa-myth-busters-do-tsa-officers-arrest.html)
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"I'm not excusing United dragging the guy off the plane, but geez, I guess I'm out of touch with the definition of "good deal"."
I've not flown since the early 1990s (and I never intend to fly again), but I get the feeling that for a lot of people, given the monumental amount of *expletive deleted*it that they have to deal with security wise (squeeze your balls today, sir?) and the ever growing number of fees that people are less and less likely to respond to offers like this because it means doubling or even tripling down on the amount of *expletive deleted*it you have to go through.
Quite possible it's not as good a deal as it used to be. I'm only looking at flying once or so a year these days, and only in First, because I can't sit in back anymore. I can't. I won't. So I can see wanting to just get it over with.
Even when flying was a little easier, I recall one time I was holding out for a better deal and someone else took a round trip ticket because I was on my way back from a bad work trip to DC, had already been screwed once (ORD is the worst airport in the country) and just wanted to finally make my last leg home. I would have needed way more than a free ticket to the lower 48 to make me stay behind, even just 4-5 hours.
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TSA doesn't have any arrest powers (except Fed Air Marshals), that is why the airport police are there.
http://blog.tsa.gov/2016/07/tsa-myth-busters-do-tsa-officers-arrest.html (http://blog.tsa.gov/2016/07/tsa-myth-busters-do-tsa-officers-arrest.html)
I know TSA doesn't have arrest powers. I should have been more precise, I was using TSA as a catch all for everything evil in the Fed lane in airports...
I thought airplanes were under Federal jurisdiction, so what's up with the local bum rush squad being called in? Or is it a joint and several kind of thing?
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I know TSA doesn't have arrest powers. I should have been more precise, I was using TSA as a catch all for everything evil in the Fed lane in airports...
I thought airplanes were under Federal jurisdiction, so what's up with the local bum rush squad being called in? Or is it a joint and several kind of thing?
On the ground, local police have jurisdiction. Every airport has their choice of who they use. Boston uses MA State Police. DFW has their own police force (with guns!). Orlando uses Orlando PD. Etc.
In the air, it is up to the Feds. And by that I mean it is up to the Feds to try to pawn it off to local cops once we land.
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In case you want some more laughs: https://twitter.com/hashtag/UnitedMovieLines?src=hash (https://twitter.com/hashtag/UnitedMovieLines?src=hash)
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On the ground, local police have jurisdiction. Every airport has their choice of who they use. Boston uses MA State Police. DFW has their own police force (with guns!). Orlando uses Orlando PD. Etc.
In the air, it is up to the Feds. And by that I mean it is up to the Feds to try to pawn it off to local cops once we land.
Well damn.
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In case you want some more laughs: https://twitter.com/hashtag/UnitedMovieLines?src=hash (https://twitter.com/hashtag/UnitedMovieLines?src=hash)
Those are hilarious. I am so happy that I am not involved in that. What a sh1tshow.
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Those are hilarious. I am so happy that I am not involved in that. What a sh1tshow.
(https://cdn.meme.am/instances/76546533.jpg)
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In case you want some more laughs: https://twitter.com/hashtag/UnitedMovieLines?src=hash (https://twitter.com/hashtag/UnitedMovieLines?src=hash)
"Every time a passenger's bell is rung a United agent gets his wings."
Is there a way to get this to display and have the animation stay active? I don't think I've ever, in my entire 49 years, seen something so funny and so true at the same time.
https://twitter.com/who__dat/status/851500354076364801
Brad
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That image has been reseated to my Facebook page.
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On the legal issue, if United had bumped the guy from the flight before boarding, I guess that happens all the time. Once they allow him to board, I don't see it. I am sure there is some fine print in the agreement that they can bump you at any time. Aside from legalities, United could have offered incentives a good bit higher than $800 cash and been in the black compared to what this will cost them.
1. I am curious what was so important about this United employee that they had to forcibly eject paying customers. Was their no other way to get that employee to the destination? A chartered flight might be cheaper by the time this is all over. I would have thought they could put him on a cargo flight or work a deal with a competing airline. I am sure they have negotiated rates for just this thing.
2. I am curious how they chose this doctor to be the one who had to go. Was he already flying standby? Was he flying with free airline miles? Surely they could find a nun or pregnant mother to physically manhandle off the plan.
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On the legal issue, if United had bumped the guy from the flight before boarding, I guess that happens all the time. Once they allow him to board, I don't see it. I am sure there is some fine print in the agreement that they can bump you at any time. Aside from legalities, United could have offered incentives a good bit higher than $800 cash and been in the black compared to what this will cost them.
Pax can be bumped at any time. It sure is easier and cheaper to do it without force though. As to the compensation, I am guessing that the local agent is only authorized to offer a certain amount of compensation and no more.
1. I am curious what was so important about this United employee that they had to forcibly eject paying customers. Was their no other way to get that employee to the destination? A chartered flight might be cheaper by the time this is all over. I would have thought they could put him on a cargo flight or work a deal with a competing airline. I am sure they have negotiated rates for just this thing.
He was probably a must-ride crew member. May have been four of them, according to other articles. Most likely, they were being positioned to operate another flight or to get back to base. It happens fairly often. We do have agreements with other airlines, but those are usually for customers, not crew, and typically only used when a flight is canceled or has a long delay.
2. I am curious how they chose this doctor to be the one who had to go. Was he already flying standby? Was he flying with free airline miles? Surely they could find a nun or pregnant mother to physically manhandle off the plan.
The rules are spelled out in UAL's Contract of Carriage, but typically the last person to check-in for the flight is the first one to get bumped.
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The rules are spelled out in UAL's Contract of Carriage, but typically the last person to check-in for the flight is the first one to get bumped.
Well that isn't right, why don't they use the last on first off rule all the time. ;)
Personally I have only flown 2 times since 1992 and that was because they haven't built that damn road to Hawaii yet. :(
bob
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Chicago Aviation Security officer on leave pending an investigation.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/04/10/chicago-aviation-officer-placed-on-leave-after-dragging-man-off-plane/
Key quote... "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
Brad
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Chicago Aviation Security officer on leave pending an investigation.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/04/10/chicago-aviation-officer-placed-on-leave-after-dragging-man-off-plane/
Key quote... "The incident on United flight 3411 was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department."
Brad
Well, it'll be interesting to see if he actually did act outside of the scope of his authority and the historical way the ORD cops handle stuff like this, or if he's just the guy the bus ran over as it pulled out of PR central.
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Additional details that I had not yet read:
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2017/04/10/video-shows-man-forcibly-removed-united-flight-chicago-louisville/100274374/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=
The man was able to get back on the plane after initially being taken off – his face was bloody and he seemed disoriented, Bridges said, and he ran to the back of the plane. Passengers asked to get off the plane as a medical crew came on to deal with the passenger, she said, and passengers were then told to go back to the gate so that officials could "tidy up" the plane before taking off.
I knew that he had gotten back on the flight, because I'm pretty sure the employees realized JUST HOW BAD THIS WAS GOING TO BE, when the bloodied man was dragged through the aisles and hoped to just sweep this under the rug.
I didn't know EVERYONE had to get off the flight, but it makes sense because they can't be taking chances with blood.
WOW, was this poorly thought through. Let's make EVERYONE on the flight angry in order to get four employees on board and ensure worldwide coverage of our lack of foresight. :facepalm:
A whole lot of people should be seeking new employment posthaste.
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Additional details that I had not yet read:
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2017/04/10/video-shows-man-forcibly-removed-united-flight-chicago-louisville/100274374/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=
I knew that he had gotten back on the flight, because I'm pretty sure the employees realized JUST HOW BAD THIS WAS GOING TO BE, when the bloodied man was dragged through the aisles and hoped to just sweep this under the rug.
I didn't know EVERYONE had to get off the flight, but it makes sense because they can't be taking chances with blood.
WOW, was this poorly thought through. Let's make EVERYONE on the flight angry in order to get four employees on board and ensure worldwide coverage of our lack of foresight. :facepalm:
A whole lot of people should be seeking new employment posthaste.
I was coming over to post this exact thing. The guy is going to have a field day in court or more likely mediation, when a giant settlement check is written.
United f*cked up not once, but twice.
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"The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force."
No.
MAJOR difference.
The passenger has already paid to be sitting in that seat. He's entered into a service contract with the airline (something you don't do just by walking into a brick and mortar store location).
Where's the due justification and cause for the police to be called into what is not a police matter?
It cannot be considered an trespassing issue, because A) the financial contract that exists between the passenger and the airline and B) because quietly sitting in your seat refusing a general cash offer to vacate the seat is NOT grounds to involve police.
I will bet dollars to donuts that the right to refuse service or bump you from a flight at random is buried in the terms and conditions when you buy a ticket.
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I was coming over to post this exact thing. The guy is going to have a field day in court or more likely mediation, when a giant settlement check is written.
United f*cked up not once, but twice.
Not to worry. Doctor's are poor and unable to hire the best lawyers. =)
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I will bet dollars to donuts that the right to refuse service or bump you from a flight at random is buried in the terms and conditions when you buy a ticket.
https://www.united.com/web/en-us/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec5 (https://www.united.com/web/en-us/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec5)
At their discretion:
RULE 25 DENIED BOARDING COMPENSATION
Denied Boarding (U.S.A./Canadian Flight Origin) - When there is an Oversold UA flight that originates in the U.S.A. or Canada, the following provisions apply:
Request for Volunteers
UA will request Passengers who are willing to relinquish their confirmed reserved space in exchange for compensation in an amount determined by UA (including but not limited to check or an electronic travel certificate). The travel certificate will be valid only for travel on UA or designated Codeshare partners for one year from the date of issue and will have no refund value. If a Passenger is asked to volunteer, UA will not later deny boarding to that Passenger involuntarily unless that Passenger was informed at the time he was asked to volunteer that there was a possibility of being denied boarding involuntarily and of the amount of compensation to which he/she would have been entitled in that event. The request for volunteers and the selection of such person to be denied space will be in a manner determined solely by UA.
Boarding Priorities - If a flight is Oversold, no one may be denied boarding against his/her will until UA or other carrier personnel first ask for volunteers who will give up their reservations willingly in exchange for compensation as determined by UA. If there are not enough volunteers, other Passengers may be denied boarding involuntarily in accordance with UA’s boarding priority:
Passengers who are Qualified Individuals with Disabilities, unaccompanied minors under the age of 18 years, or minors between the ages of 5 to 15 years who use the unaccompanied minor service, will be the last to be involuntarily denied boarding if it is determined by UA that such denial would constitute a hardship.
The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment.
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https://www.united.com/web/en-us/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec5 (https://www.united.com/web/en-us/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec5)
At their discretion:
That seems centered around denying boarding...he had already boarded, so how does that apply?
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That seems centered around denying boarding...he had already boarded, so how does that apply?
They were still in the process of boarding, since the doors were not closed. Once the doors close the aircraft is considered in flight and the rules change.
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A quick scan of their Contract of Carriage indicates nothing which applies to removal of passengers in good standing after they've boarded. There are a bunch of conditions dealing with removal of boarded passengers because of violence, drugs, not going through security, use of illicit substances, etc., but nothing which talks about removing boarded passengers simply because the airline feels they need the seat for someone else. It does address refusal of boarding privileges for any number of reasons but does so in the implied context of "before you set foot on the plane". It addresses voluntary deplaning in various ways but doesn't mention that "voluntary" may also include having your face smashed in and being dragged down the aisle by uniformed officers.
Brad
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I will bet dollars to donuts that the right to refuse service or bump you from a flight at random is buried in the terms and conditions when you buy a ticket.
I think you are correct on this point. But if they were going to make that play, they should have stuck with it. Letting him back on shows they didn't actually need to do it--or at least that's why the check will be so huge.
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Seems United's attention has been gotten'd
https://www.facebook.com/United/photos/a.218041034900113.48865.199504650087085/1327123630658509/?type=3&theater
Comments range from brutally direct to outright hostility. Up less than ten minutes and already over 500 responses.
Brad
Comments fast approaching 25k. Not a single positive one on the several pages I scrolled through.
Brad
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United has been saved further immolation! It is Trump's fault (freakin' all the Sulus are whack, yo)!
http://twitchy.com/sd-3133/2017/04/10/brace-yourselves-guess-who-star-trek-star-john-cho-blames-for-united-mess/
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United has been saved further immolation! It is Trump's fault (freakin' all the Sulus are whack, yo)!
http://twitchy.com/sd-3133/2017/04/10/brace-yourselves-guess-who-star-trek-star-john-cho-blames-for-united-mess/
TDS has reached epidemic proportions.
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At least he didn't have a guitar.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/xUA7bj8UXAYlHBraes/giphy.gif)
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The same right a business has to kick you out of their store. If you don't leave voluntarily, you will be forced out by those authorized to use force.
Just because a person has a ticket for a flight, that does not mean that person has a right to be on that flight. If United decides to remove a passenger for any legal reason, then United may do so and may request the police assist.
Yes, but was the reason legal?
Maybe United should think about revamping their crew scheduling so they don't have to beat down paying passengers to get a 4-person crew where they need to be for their next flight.
Or maybe not overbook every flight?
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They were still in the process of boarding, since the doors were not closed. Once the doors close the aircraft is considered in flight and the rules change.
This is correct. The boarding process was still occurring, and it really doesn't matter when the "deny boarding" process begins. We can return to the gate to add/remove customers as necessary.
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Yes, but was the reason legal?
Maybe United should think about revamping their crew scheduling so they don't have to beat down paying passengers to get a 4-person crew where they need to be for their next flight.
Or maybe not overbook every flight?
Odds are it was a last minute change or cancellation that required the crew to deadhead. The flight was probably sold out weeks ago.
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They were still in the process of boarding, since the doors were not closed. Once the doors close the aircraft is considered in flight and the rules change.
But the passenger who was beaten up had already boarded and was in his assigned seat. Further, the article doesn't say where he fell in their stated order of priorities. In fact, the earlier article I read indicated that he was selected by a random lottery -- which is NOT in accordance with the written priority system in the contract.
If they needed four seats for a crew, they should have not boarded four paying passengers.
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Circling the wagons:
http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2017/04/10/uniteds-fiasco-prompts-apology-suspension/100295216/
NBC News said the Chicago Police Department issued a statement Monday that said the passenger who was removed from the flight was 69 years old and was taken to a hospital with non-life-threatening injuries after Sunday's altercation. The police said aviation officers tried to carry the man, who had become irate, off the plane "when he fell," and his "head subsequently struck an armrest causing injuries to his face," according to NBC News.
Probably only a Chicago cop could be dumb enough to falsify a report regarding how the subject was injured when he knows full well that the incident was witnessed by an entire plane load of people. Other passengers have alreay reported that the third officer "threw" the doctor against the armrest -- so he filed a report saying the guy "fell"?
Not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
I hope I never have to fly again.
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I was thinking of an old Myth-busters program where they compared flying time to driving time for San Fran to LA I think and the comparison was within minutes of each other. Driving sounds more and more like a better idea. =) (within reason at least)
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After all the news this weekend, it seems someone had an idea. Not sure if it would be cheaper than cruise missiles as there would be no discounts or miles allowed.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9E8EFaV0AAlEoo.jpg)
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(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/67adb5ee60b83819abdc5064ebdf913b105d39ac21e081bfb7b9bc05395df1fc.jpg)
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My dad had a plane when I was young and he had it down to an exact number on time vs driving.
Him and a coworker would leave work and one would heard for point b the other would head to the airport. Once there check the plane over do preflight wait for ground control and takeoff.
I don't remember the distance needed to be even but it was a ways out. I'll ask next week when I see him.
I guess the rich guys have the plane fired up waiting for them to get off the chopper.
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Over certain distances it doesn't make sense to drive, but stuff like this makes the distance people would be willing to drive a little longer.
People were talking about a high speed train again in Texas recently. I wonder how much of that discussion is fueled by hatred of air travel.
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Fly the Friendly Skies! Free Dental Work!
(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fe9687b0e01931bb53a3ad1a3ee6270a9a385d10cdca90f5be6175021f06beb5.jpg)
I guess it might be perfectly legal, but the jokes are just too easy and this guy ought to come out ahead in the end.
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Over certain distances it doesn't make sense to drive, but stuff like this makes the distance people would be willing to drive a little longer.
People were talking about a high speed train again in Texas recently. I wonder how much of that discussion is fueled by hatred of air travel.
After the fiasco I endured with American Airlines on my way to AND FROM the SHOT Show in January, I told my colleagues that if the boss wants me to cover the show next year, I'll rent an econo-box from Enterprise and drive to Las Vegas. It'll take me three days, maybe four, but actual cash costs will probably be less than flying, and I'll be happier and healthier.
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After the fiasco I endured with American Airlines on my way to AND FROM the SHOT Show in January, I told my colleagues that if the boss wants me to cover the show next year, I'll rent an econo-box from Enterprise and drive to Las Vegas. It'll take me three days, maybe four, but actual cash costs will probably be less than flying, and I'll be happier and healthier.
Really do it on the cheap and make arrangements to couch surf at various APS member's fortified compounds along the way.
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Fly the Friendly Skies! Free Dental Work!
(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fe9687b0e01931bb53a3ad1a3ee6270a9a385d10cdca90f5be6175021f06beb5.jpg)
I guess it might be perfectly legal, but the jokes are just too easy and this guy ought to come out ahead in the end.
Dr. looks Asian, obviously a hate crime.
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Fly the Friendly Skies! Free Dental Work!
(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fe9687b0e01931bb53a3ad1a3ee6270a9a385d10cdca90f5be6175021f06beb5.jpg)
I guess it might be perfectly legal, but the jokes are just too easy and this guy ought to come out ahead in the end.
Is that an actual photo of the Dr.? I didn't realize he'd been injured to the point of being bloodied! Good grief....it's worse than I thought it was from the video I saw on Fox.
Yea~~~~~refering to earlier post: it is like Negan was in charge! [tinfoil]
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I seriously question that. What right do they have to get the police to force a paying passenger out of his seat, against his will? Seems that the police should also be paying very hard on this one, as well, since they were responding not to a security issue but a business practices issue.
It's right on the back of each ticket.
You have a choice. You can do it our way or you can do it our way harder....
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It's right on the back of each ticket.
You have a choice. You can do it our way or you can do it our way harder....
Yeah, but normally they don't take you off the plane for that.
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Yeah, but normally they don't take you off the plane for that.
You can pretty much be removed for any or no reason as the airline sees fit. Yes, they have to compensate you for getting bumped (I disremember the $$$ amount), but if they say "Remove yourself from our plane", you better remove yourself. It doesn't matter how bad you have to get to your destination.
Again. Our way or our way harder. Sorry Doc, you don't have any sympathy from me. Next time listen.
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The way the airline operated is an affront to common decency. Remember common decency?
Any "bumping" should be done prior to seating, and never with threats of violence. Legal or not it was wrong. Offering a better compensation package to another less stubborn passanger would have probably made things go more smoothly.
What's next? Waiters making you spit out your food and kicking from you table because someone else needs to be prioritized? :lol:
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fuploads.tapatalk-cdn.com%2F20170411%2F499d08adc373545d9e87c94270619c9a.jpg&hash=b47721b8c92cc55bc48a2e861010cddf898aa2bc)
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OK, Neegan as Chicago Aviation Police is one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time.
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The way the airline operated is an affront to common decency. Remember common decency?
Truth. And decency works both ways.
Any "bumping" should be done prior to seating,
That makes things easier, but it doesn't always work out that way. Nothing prohibits us from bumping pax who are already on the plane.
and never with threats of violence. Legal or not it was wrong.
There are only two ways to get people to do something: coercion or force. Coercion didn't work. Force was required.
Offering a better compensation package to another less stubborn passanger would have probably made things go more smoothly.
Compensation was offered to everyone. No one accepted the offer. The compensation was raised; no one accepted the offer. Everyone was told that if no one volunteered to be bumped, then people would be selected to be bumped. No one volunteered. Someone was involuntarily bumped and asked to deplane. He refused. He was told to deplane. He refused. He was told to deplane by law enforcement. He refused. All coercion efforts had failed, the next step was to use force. He was forced off the plane.
I don't know why UAL didn't raise the compensation offer, but they didn't and all the passengers were warned what could happen. They all chose to take their chances and one guy lost.
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If you want to be treated with common decency, there's a $45 fee (each way) for that.
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I don't know why UAL didn't raise the compensation offer, but they didn't and all the passengers were warned what could happen. They all chose to take their chances and one guy lost.
Just think that since they knew that they still had an overbooked flight why they even started the boarding process. Been a lot easier to bump someone involuntarily before they are seated on the plane with a couple hundred more passengers.
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Truth. And decency works both ways.
That makes things easier, but it doesn't always work out that way. Nothing prohibits us from bumping pax who are already on the plane.
There are only two ways to get people to do something: coercion or force. Coercion didn't work. Force was required.
Compensation was offered to everyone. No one accepted the offer. The compensation was raised; no one accepted the offer. Everyone was told that if no one volunteered to be bumped, then people would be selected to be bumped. No one volunteered. Someone was involuntarily bumped and asked to deplane. He refused. He was told to deplane. He refused. He was told to deplane by law enforcement. He refused. All coercion efforts had failed, the next step was to use force. He was forced off the plane.
I don't know why UAL didn't raise the compensation offer, but they didn't and all the passengers were warned what could happen. They all chose to take their chances and one guy lost.
Good lord do normal people not want to hear logic, reason or whatnot. APS is pretty good about it compared to... well, just about everywhere.
At this point, people would react more calmly if United had intentionally ran the entire plane into a mountain.
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If UA upped the bid one more time, I'm betting someone would have taken it.
Now they will spend millions trying to fix their image stemming from them trying to save a few hundred dollars.
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I don't know why UAL didn't raise the compensation offer, but they didn't and all the passengers were warned what could happen. They all chose to take their chances and one guy lost.
And here was where they made the mistake. From reporting, they offered $800 and it wasn't enough, so they stopped offering.
$800 was the line where they thought that forcing people from the flight was a better choice than offering more compensation.
Just how much is that choice going to cost them? I'm willing to bet it's going to be millions.
Now, not every time is that choice going to be THAT costly, but forcing people off the flight unwillingly is ALWAYS going to cost them more than the extra incentive.
For want of a nail the shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe the horse was lost.
For want of a horse the rider was lost.
For want of a rider the message was lost.
For want of a message the battle was lost.
For want of a battle the kingdom was lost.
And all for the want of a horseshoe nail.
This was monumentally a bad choice.
Incidentally, I'm on the side of the airline can kick anyone off for whatever reason (legally) that they want. But it had better be a REALLY good reason if you're going to do so because the consequences are dire.
(Note, I'm not certain that, legally, the doctor here has any recourse against the airline. But not paying out to him doesn't mean they don't pay. I'm pretty sure United is already paying for this choice. On the plus side, they're probably not going to have to worry about overbooked flights for a while.)
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If UA upped the bid one more time, I'm betting someone would have taken it.
Now they will spend millions trying to fix their image stemming from them trying to save a few hundred dollars.
It's rather funny, because it appears the airline made the incentives for the crew revolve ONLY around those few hundred dollars.
I'm sure they'd have been docked for spending more than $800 on the bumping, so OF COURSE, from their view, it's now time for force. Because they aren't paid to think about the future of the airline, but to get that plane (and the spare crew, it seems) to Louisville, as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Individuals respond to incentives and costs and the employees acted as though there were keenly aware of what the extra few hundred dollars would cost them. I'm willing to bet they'd have been reprimanded for offering too much.
The people in charge of them are the ones who ought to be thinking about the airline as a whole and should have aligned the crews incentives with that. They failed.
Fly320s, am I guessing right here?
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Just think that since they knew that they still had an overbooked flight why they even started the boarding process. Been a lot easier to bump someone involuntarily before they are seated on the plane with a couple hundred more passengers.
We don't know when UA noticed the flight was oversold. It is possible that the deadheading crew was a last minute add on. I've been in that situation myself several times and even had to bump paying passengers. Poop happens. And I have had passengers removed from flights after boarding due to oversold flights. Again, poop happens.
Point of order: the flight was operated by a United Express code-share partner, not actually United Airlines. In the videos, the plane appears to be a regional jet, such as a CRJ or Embraer, seating about 50 people, not hundreds.
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If UA upped the bid one more time, I'm betting someone would have taken it.
Now they will spend millions trying to fix their image stemming from them trying to save a few hundred dollars.
You are probably right, but hindsight is 20/20.
Do you have any idea how many people UAL or AA or Delta or the other airlines bump each year? I'd guess in the low 1,000's range. The only reason this bump is getting so much attention is because one passenger got a fat lip from a cop. From a cop. Not from UAL. UAL will pay for this, big time, but the cops and the passenger are the ones to blame.
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If you want to be treated with common decency, there's a $45 fee (each way) for that.
Credit card only. Cash not accepted.
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https://t.co/N1TbohuRc3
While again, he's probably right... But it won't help their PR after the news company picks out choice quotes.
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It's rather funny, because it appears the airline made the incentives for the crew revolve ONLY around those few hundred dollars.
I'm sure they'd have been docked for spending more than $800 on the bumping, so OF COURSE, from their view, it's now time for force. Because they aren't paid to think about the future of the airline, but to get that plane (and the spare crew, it seems) to Louisville, as cheaply and efficiently as possible. Individuals respond to incentives and costs and the employees acted as though there were keenly aware of what the extra few hundred dollars would cost them. I'm willing to bet they'd have been reprimanded for offering too much.
The people in charge of them are the ones who ought to be thinking about the airline as a whole and should have aligned the crews incentives with that. They failed.
Fly320s, am I guessing right here?
Pretty much. Just to clarify: the SOPs for bumping/compensating pax are already in place. I don't know much about the details, but I doubt that the front-line gate agents are allowed to determine the amount of offered compensation. The agents follow the script as written by the corporate office. And this works 99% of the time. We've all seen/heard the stories of passengers throwing fits because they were bumped from flights. Those are rare events. Having to physically remove a passenger is even more rare. This news story is a news story only because there is video of a man with a bloody lip. If it bleeds, it leads.
As to the crew movement issue: The deadheading crew (I assume they were deadheading and not flying standby on their own time) needed to be in Louisville (or whatever the destination was. I've seen three cities mentioned.) to operate a flight the next day. Bumping 1-4 passengers today is normally better/easier/cheaper than cancelling a flight tomorrow for 50 people.
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https://t.co/N1TbohuRc3
While again, he's probably right... But it won't help their PR after the news company picks out choice quotes.
Oh, yeah, this will get worse. Mr. CEO needs to run his emails through his PR group before hitting 'send.'
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They needed four seats, one guy got beat up then allowed back on the plane. Where did the crew that "needed" to be some where go. Wherever they went, seems that should have been the answer from the beginning.
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They needed four seats, one guy got beat up then allowed back on the plane. Where did the crew that "needed" to be some where go. Wherever they went, seems that should have been the answer from the beginning.
The only info we get is from the news. WE don't know what happened to anyone else, because all the news cares about is the bloody lip. Maybe three other people got off quietly, with no fuss, and the crew was on board. Maybe MR. Bloody Lip was later removed from the plane and missed the flight. I did read one quick account somewhere that said he was taken to a hospital. I also read the entire plane was emptied to clean up the blood.
We won't know the majority of the story for a few days. We have to wait for the drama to die down first.
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No one has asked the most important question.
Is the good Doctor a liberal, conservative or a libertarian.
If he's just a other whiney butt liberal why do we care?
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Oh, yeah, this will get worse. Mr. CEO needs to run his emails through his PR group before hitting 'send.'
It's worse.
http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/04/11/united-ceo-defends-actions-staff-in-viral-video-as-lawmakers-call-for-investigation.html
When it doubt, double-down on Teh Stoopid by blaming the person beaten and dragged forcefully off a plane because of your crew's piss poor handling of the issue. I see a special Board Of Directors meeting in his future.
Brad
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Point of order: the flight was operated by a United Express code-share partner, not actually United Airlines. In the videos, the plane appears to be a regional jet, such as a CRJ or Embraer, seating about 50 people, not hundreds.
Interesting info. To a regional carrier, $800 could be equivalent to $8000 for United itself. How does it work if United wants to deadhead on one of their regional carriers? I don't know how intertwined United is with its partners regarding finance, etc.
Also, we seem to be heavily focusing on United. Not that they don't share responsibility for a bad business move, but it was a government employee who dragged the guy off the plane.
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How does it work if United wants to deadhead on one of their regional carriers? I don't know how intertwined United is with its partners regarding finance, etc
The flight booking is seamless. For all intensive porpoises, it is the same airline.
Finances are separate, though. Two different companies. UAL runs the organizational side of things, the express carrier runs their flight side of things and gets paid to fly the United colors.
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Interesting info. To a regional carrier, $800 could be equivalent to $8000 for United itself. How does it work if United wants to deadhead on one of their regional carriers? I don't know how intertwined United is with its partners regarding finance, etc.
Also, we seem to be heavily focusing on United. Not that they don't share responsibility for a bad business move, but it was a government employee who dragged the guy off the plane.
Apparently, quite a few people think it was United employees who beat the man senseless. Chicago airport PD is probably very thankful for that. United's (or their affiliated subregional partner) role is solely being the folks who dialed 911.
Seriously, their CEO is a complete moron. If their CEO, marketing and PR were on point, they would have pulled an Obama and threw the police under the bus. That they deplore the violence inherent in the system and they feel terrible that the police would do something like that. Maybe Chicago police needs to re-evaluate their sensitivity training, etc. Admitting no guilt to drive down their settlement costs while trying to look good in front of the camera. Absolute incompetence.
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Regardless of anything else, I laughed out loud at this response:
"We're altering our seating arrangements, pray we don't alter them any further"
:rofl:
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Apparently, quite a few people think it was United employees who beat the man senseless. Chicago airport PD is probably very thankful for that. United's (or their affiliated subregional partner) role is solely being the folks who dialed 911.
Seriously, their CEO is a complete moron. If their CEO, marketing and PR were on point, they would have pulled an Obama and threw the police under the bus. That they deplore the violence inherent in the system and they feel terrible that the police would do something like that. Maybe Chicago police needs to re-evaluate their sensitivity training, etc. Admitting no guilt to drive down their settlement costs while trying to look good in front of the camera. Absolute incompetence.
Yep. He keeps saying "WE WERE COMPLETELY IN THE RIGHT!!!" which, although it may be true, is monumentally bad publicity.
You PROBABLY don't want to send the message to your customers that if you don't cooperate in our screwing you over, we'll have you beaten.
Yes, you might have the right to screw people over, but you REALLY want to downplay that part. The beating just highlights the fact you were screwing the passenger over and willing to use force to do so.
This isn't a "Push through the negative until it becomes a positive" situation. The "rights" you are exercising are already disliked by the public and saying "It was MY RIGHT!" works about as well as this:
[Lord Bottoms had claimed the right of Prima Nocte and raped Morrison's bride on the first night of their marriage]
Morrison: Do you remember me?
Lord Bottoms: [scared] I never did her any harm. It was my right!
Morrison: Your right? Well, I'm here to claim the right of a husband!
[kills Lord Bottoms]
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Poor doc thought he had a redeye flight didn't know it was the black eye.
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Poor doc thought he had a redeye flight didn't know it was the black eye.
Only because he gave the cops some lip. =D >:D
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The story I thought I heard (I think it was from twitter or the Facebook comments so you know it is true) is that 3 people took the $800 and one person offered to leave for $1600, but they were not taken up on it. The guy was picked by lottery or something instead of just last one on.
My biggest issue is that United's business model assumes they will kick a certain number of people off flights because they were oversold or because they need to move employees around. I realize the numbers are low compared to total passenger numbers, but it is still a pretty cold way to do business. You would think they would find a way to do it better or handle it before letting people on the plane.
I am still curious if the doctor's luggage was taken off the plane or it continued on the flight.
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"If they just raised the offer, then someone would have taken it."
BULLSHIT. They bumped it up several times and no one bit. They hit the top end of the offer scale and at that point, the computer picked four seats. Congrats, you lose.
Also it is my understanding that Dr. Fat Lip got off and then when he ran back on and got in the seat before they got the crew there and on-board.
And this won't cost United a dime. What alternative do people have ?? Take the bus?? Most flights are already full or close to full. There's not a lot of alternatives depending on where you want to fly to. People will bitch, whine and moan, but in the end they'll shut-up and fly.
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The brutality of the police involved is probably nothing they haven't done plenty before. They just normally do it to "criminals" and not in view of dozens of normal people. It sucks, but I am surprised people are so shocked by it. The same thing could happen on the side of the road and does.
I do admit that the doctor could argue and complain, but once the cops show up, you pretty much need to realize compliance is no longer optional and you are going to have a bad day if you continue to resist. It is something to remember when flying on an airline I guess. Expect good service, but understand you could be chose as the one to be bumped and there is no point in arguing beyond getting a few allowed incentives.
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"If they just raised the offer, then someone would have taken it."
BULLSHIT. They bumped it up several times and no one bit. They hit the top end of the offer scale and at that point, the computer picked four seats. Congrats, you lose.
Also it is my understanding that Dr. Fat Lip got off and then when he ran back on and got in the seat before they got the crew there and on-board.
And this won't cost United a dime. What alternative do people have ?? Take the bus?? Most flights are already full or close to full. There's not a lot of alternatives depending on where you want to fly to. People will bitch, whine and moan, but in the end they'll shut-up and fly.
IMO, United's best hope is to get this dismissed or settled. If it goes to a jury, I doubt they will get any sympathy regardless of what the rules/laws are.
And "close to full" wouldn't have been an issue. It was full.
The alternatives are all at United's feet. They could choose to handle flight booking and employee movement differently. They could choose to offer more incentives or give the local people more flexibility if that was part of it. What I would be curious to know is what alternatives there were that day/night to get those employees to the destination. Was that flight the ONLY choice?
What is on the doctor is resisting police. That gets you nowhere and often results in what he got.
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MechAg,
The checked luggage can stay on board. I assume it did get removed, though, because RJs don't have much baggage to sort through.
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The brutality of the police involved is probably nothing they haven't done plenty before. They just normally do it to "criminals" and not in view of dozens of normal people. It sucks, but I am surprised people are so shocked by it. The same thing could happen on the side of the road and does.
I do admit that the doctor could argue and complain, but once the cops show up, you pretty much need to realize compliance is no longer optional and you are going to have a bad day if you continue to resist. It is something to remember when flying on an airline I guess. Expect good service, but understand you could be chose as the one to be bumped and there is no point in arguing beyond getting a few allowed incentives.
I believe that the term is "You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride." When Officer Friendly says to get off the plane. It's time to get off the plane.
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And here is an article about the doctor: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4401980/Dr-dragged-United-swapped-drugs-secret-gay-sex.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4401980/Dr-dragged-United-swapped-drugs-secret-gay-sex.html)
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Also it is my understanding that Dr. Fat Lip got off and then when he ran back on and got in the seat before they got the crew there and on-board.
I've just started hearing about this. Again, not excusing anyone, but the tarring and feathering is based on a couple of short video snippets -- both from around the same timeframe - making the rounds. I wonder, if such existed, how a "start to finish" recording would change things?
As was pointed out, once the cops are called, the best thing to do is follow directions and then call the lawyer. Going limp and being dragged out is kind of an SJW move.
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Sounds like the lessons so far are:
1. "Police" are not your friends when you resist.
2. "Victims" are sometimes not sympathetic figures and often deserve just as much blame as the bad guy.
3. Air travel can suck sometimes. Take what you can get and go with the flow.
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MechAg,
The checked luggage can stay on board. I assume it did get removed, though, because RJs don't have much baggage to sort through.
I guess I was thinking if you had a family of 4 on the flight, $800 each is a pretty good incentive. However, you might need your luggage if you get stuck overnight.
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Why does the Dr remind me of Chow from The Hangover?
Chris
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(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.campidiot.net%2Fdump%2Fphoto%2FFlySouthwest.jpg&hash=b8675a6593c67299b6efdf5617a8c65f5102b517)
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The story I thought I heard (I think it was from twitter or the Facebook comments so you know it is true) is that 3 people took the $800 and one person offered to leave for $1600, but they were not taken up on it.
Depending on profession and location needs, $1600 might be a pittance compared to potential financial losses should the passenger not make their destination. A physician simply making patient rounds can clear more than that in an hour.
Brad
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Apparently, United's CEO is a PR genius:
http://www.prweek.com/article/1426909/united-airlines-ceo-oscar-munoz-named-prweek-us-communicator-year
The award was for communicating well with employees, not customers.
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Depending on profession and location needs, $1600 might be a pittance compared to potential financial losses should the passenger not make their destination. A physician simply making patient rounds can clear more than that in an hour.
Brad
Yet there were probably at least a dozen people on the flight that make $800 or less a week that didn't want to make $800 for ~12 hours of their time. The incident aside, I'm still a little perplexed that they didn't get more people to volunteer. If the next flight doesn't leave till the next day, that should mean hotel and per diem would be included as well.
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I'm waiting for the police brutality case (this probably isn't it) where the person who called the cops gets sued because they knew (or should have known) that beating people up or shooting them without any justification is what CPD does (or NOPD, or Baltimore, or Philly, etc.) :police:
"They have qualified immunity, you don't."
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Yet there were probably at least a dozen people on the flight that make $800 or less a week that didn't want to make $800 for ~12 hours of their time. The incident aside, I'm still a little perplexed that they didn't get more people to volunteer. If the next flight doesn't leave till the next day, that should mean hotel and per diem would be included as well.
Small flight, Sunday night. Probably lots of people unable to take and extra day of vacation.
Bosses look askance at people suddenly adding another day to their vacation.
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Could have been how the subject was broached. If someone had come on a loaded plane & announced that "four of you peons have to get off to make room for more important people because we screwed up", you can bet you'd have to fight me off the plane.
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Well...
This just got WAY more interesting...
http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/
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Small flight, Sunday night. Probably lots of people unable to take and extra day of vacation.
Bosses look askance at people suddenly adding another day to their vacation.
Seems like a good way to blame it on United though. =D
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^^^Wow, having read the source article, I find it interesting that Kentucky still allows him to have a medical license. He had a good lawyer. Sexual contact with patients is bad enough, but then with the narcotics issues on top of that.
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Semi-related:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RL6b-QgceE
https://youtu.be/FwPdWEdbgxY?t=272
"You do what we say, when we say, and there won't be a problem. Capiche?"
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well I know the stock can bounce back but it has cost them over 600 million so far.
If they keep making it worse heads are going to roll even if it was legal.
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http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article143948159.html
This story states that over 40K fliers were bumped last year.
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The passenger has already paid to be sitting in that seat. He's entered into a service contract with the airline (something you don't do just by walking into a brick and mortar store location).
Right; this would be more akin to a store forcing you to leave without the merchandise you've already paid for, on a promise that they'll let you come pick it up some other time.
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Small flight, Sunday night. Probably lots of people unable to take and extra day of vacation.
Bosses look askance at people suddenly adding another day to their vacation.
$800 and a ticket to wherever? Bump me to first class on the next available flight and I'll figure out an excuse for the boss. TSA issues are believable if the boss flies at all.
That nobody else was taking that deal should have indicated to them that maybe it's their employees who should get bumped, or cut a deal with another airline.
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http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article143948159.html
This story states that over 40K fliers were bumped last year.
The percentage is really small out of all the passengers for a year, but 41,000 tickets that had to be inerted on another flight is a lot of potential lost revenue. I guess if the next available flight had empty seats, the loss isn't so much, but it is still some loss. It is just small compared to the total.
United actually had a lower rate of involuntary bumping than the two largest carriers, Southwest and American. One in every 10,000 Southwest passengers was involuntarily bumped last year. Only Expressjet Airlines had a higher rate. United’s rate was 0.43 passengers in 10,000.
Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article143948159.html#storylink=cpy
My only thought is there has to be a different or better way to manage moving personnel around, but it isn't my business.
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$800 and a ticket to wherever? Bump me to first class on the next available flight and I'll figure out an excuse for the boss. TSA issues are believable if the boss flies at all.
That nobody else was taking that deal should have indicated to them that maybe it's their employees who should get bumped, or cut a deal with another airline.
That was my thought. If you didn't have to pay for a hotel room and you just got delayed a few hours, $800 means a pretty nice new pistol. I just saw a Glock 19 Gen 4 with the MOS red dot mounting plate. =)
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Yet there were probably at least a dozen people on the flight that make $800 or less a week that didn't want to make $800 for ~12 hours of their time. The incident aside, I'm still a little perplexed that they didn't get more people to volunteer. If the next flight doesn't leave till the next day, that should mean hotel and per diem would be included as well.
Four people; $3200 cash plus whatever the value of the tickets offered, plus lodging, plus whatever. It's just under 5 hours to drive from Chicago to Louisville, so why the heck not rent the employees the nicest car available at OHare for a few hundred and let them get a nice meal on the way? Two get to sleep the whole way and the other two half each, at worst, or they all take a turn and get just under four hours rest each. Heck, how much would a driver and a comfy van be for that trip? Just not seeing much in the way of common sense on United's part here.
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Legal or not, intentionally sellng more than you can provide in any service is a dishonest practice... so we are off to a bad start already.
Being that travel is not only about cash but also the consumer's time, people are right to demand the service on the date and time advertised by the seller. Clearly, compensation offered in this case was not enough (according to the market- the passengers on board) and needs to be reviewed if it failed ot create sufficient incentive, not forced by goons. If UA "bumping" procedure leads to physical confrontation in the cabin of their planes, then that procedure is ass backwards. Backing up a dishonest -yet legal- business practice with force is just slimy.
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Legal or not, intentionally sellng more than you can provide in any service is a dishonest practice... so we are off to a bad start already.
I don't think that in itself is dishonest. From what I've seen, on a flight that size, statistics indicate that 4-5 people will not show up, hence they overbook to cover the no-shows. I don't think there is anything wrong with that business practice based on the math. It's how you handle it when the math is wrong and the no-shows show up.
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From articles I've read, the airlines are "encouraged" by the government to offer up to $1300/person for bumping them... So why the airline employees stopped at offering only $800 and called the cops is problematic, to say the least. I get that they have the right to kick anyone off for any reason... But trying to save $500/person at the cost of millions in lost stock and lost revenue is, well, dumb.
Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk
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The payout is in airline credit, not cash.
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The payout is in airline credit, not cash.
Which if the case most of your vacation travelers would not take because when would they be able to use it.
I was on a flight a couple of weeks ago from KC to Indy where Southwest was offering $300 cash and if I heard correctly credit for the ticket they had purchased to bump to a later flight.
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I don't think that in itself is dishonest. From what I've seen, on a flight that size, statistics indicate that 4-5 people will not show up, hence they overbook to cover the no-shows. I don't think there is anything wrong with that business practice based on the math. It's how you handle it when the math is wrong and the no-shows show up.
If the airline discloses the percentage of overbooking at the time you are looking to buy the Ticket, and the explicit caveat that your odds of being bumped to boarding that flight are X:Y, then that would be more honest and you would be an informed gambler =D, not a sucker.
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The payout is in airline credit, not cash.
I rarely fly anywhere for work or vacation and I don't care if work gets a discounted plane ticket. If it isn't cash, it means nothing to me. I don't think I would try to wrestle with police though.
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The payout is in airline credit, not cash.
Welcome to the company store. Please leave your pick outside.
Still have trouble believing it wouldn't have been cheaper for them to move their crew some other way with zero backlash. Rent a van for one day and give the janitor 10 hours of overtime to drive so the crew gets to rest; what would that take, $600, tops, including fuel and a meal for everybody at IHOP?
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If the airline discloses the percentage of overbooking at the time you are looking to buy the Ticket, and the explicit caveat that your odds of being bumped to boarding that flight are X:Y, then that would be more honest and you would be an informed gambler =D, not a sucker.
Well and also, I have no idea what their overbooking numbers are. If they have a flight that statistically averages five no shows, then overbooking by 3-4 is reasonable to me. Overbooking by 6-7 would not be. This is all from my armchair of course. I'm sure there are lots of calculations I don't understand regarding costs of an empty seat vs costs of "bumping bribes" all multiplied by thousands of flights per day.
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Point of order: the flight was operated by a United Express code-share partner, not actually United Airlines.
I think more and more of us are developing zero tolerance for the "it wasn't us, it was our contractor/partner/whatever that we somehow can't have any control over at all despite the very detailed contractual relationship" excuse. You employ (as in pay them to do something, regardless of the details) them to serve your customers under your name, you're responsible for making sure they do it.
In the videos, the plane appears to be a regional jet, such as a CRJ or Embraer, seating about 50 people, not hundreds.
E170, so 70-80 depending on layout, but there's more than enough room for a spare flight crew to lay down in the baggage compartment*.
* http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/03/aviation/trapped-baggage-handler/
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I guess a flood of social media outrage, a barrage of negative major media coverage, and more than a billion in stock value loss finally got the point across that half-axed apologies ain't gonna cut it.
https://hub.united.com/united-express-3411-statement-oscar-munoz-2355968629.html?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral
Brad
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Welcome to the company store. Please leave your pick outside.
Still have trouble believing it wouldn't have been cheaper for them to move their crew some other way with zero backlash. Rent a van for one day and give the janitor 10 hours of overtime to drive so the crew gets to rest; what would that take, $600, tops, including fuel and a meal for everybody at IHOP?
Maybe cheaper, but that would require advanced planning. This sounds like a last minute problem.
Driving that far is out od the question. DOT rest rules don't allow that time to be counted as rest. I don't know the pay rules of that airline, but at my job the entire crew would have to be paid their hourly wage for the whole drive. That would be about $450/hr and the we would be illegal to work the next day.
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Maybe cheaper, but that would require advanced planning. This sounds like a last minute problem.
Driving that far is out od the question. DOT rest rules don't allow that time to be counted as rest. I don't know the pay rules of that airline, but at my job the entire crew would have to be paid their hourly wage for the whole drive. That would be about $450/hr and the we would be illegal to work the next day.
Don't feed the troll.
Chris
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Driving that far is out od the question. DOT rest rules don't allow that time to be counted as rest. I don't know the pay rules of that airline, but at my job the entire crew would have to be paid their hourly wage for the whole drive. That would be about $450/hr and the we would be illegal to work the next day.
Call it a very low altitude flight. Pick the right driver and that might sort of be true.
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Pretty much. Just to clarify: the SOPs for bumping/compensating pax are already in place. I don't know much about the details, but I doubt that the front-line gate agents are allowed to determine the amount of offered compensation. The agents follow the script as written by the corporate office. And this works 99% of the time. We've all seen/heard the stories of passengers throwing fits because they were bumped from flights. Those are rare events. Having to physically remove a passenger is even more rare. This news story is a news story only because there is video of a man with a bloody lip. If it bleeds, it leads.
As to the crew movement issue: The deadheading crew (I assume they were deadheading and not flying standby on their own time) needed to be in Louisville (or whatever the destination was. I've seen three cities mentioned.) to operate a flight the next day. Bumping 1-4 passengers today is normally better/easier/cheaper than cancelling a flight tomorrow for 50 people.
At least two articles I've read reported that one of the congenial United personnel (don't know if it was a gate agent or a flight attendant) announced that if nobody "volunteered," the flight wouldn't take off. I rather suspect that if they had simply followed through with that strategy, someone would have felt pressured enough to accept the $800 bribe and get off the plane.
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Yet there were probably at least a dozen people on the flight that make $800 or less a week that didn't want to make $800 for ~12 hours of their time. The incident aside, I'm still a little perplexed that they didn't get more people to volunteer. If the next flight doesn't leave till the next day, that should mean hotel and per diem would be included as well.
But people on the low end of the income scale generally aren't frequent fliers. To someone who gets on a plane maybe once every five or ten years, a voucher good for $800 off your next flight (on United) is pretty useless if you don't plan to fly anywhere. If the $800 was a cash offer, that might be a different story.
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Well...
This just got WAY more interesting...
http://nypost.com/2017/04/11/doctor-dragged-off-flight-convicted-of-trading-drugs-for-sex/
It wouldn't be admissible in any trial. His status, sexual orientation, and psychological history weren't known to any of the players, and weren't especially relevant to the incident. (Except possibly his anger management problem.)
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But people on the low end of the income scale generally aren't frequent fliers. To someone who gets on a plane maybe once every five or ten years, a voucher good for $800 off your next flight (on United) is pretty useless if you don't plan to fly anywhere. If the $800 was a cash offer, that might be a different story.
Noted. When this started I thought there were cash incentives. I see where fly320s said otherwise. Cash offers were something I'd never seen when I flew a lot, and for that matter, I don't recall dollar value vouchers being offered either back when I was on overbooked flights. It was always frequent flyer miles on the low end, and then just tickets "good for anywhere within X for Y time" (usually a year).
Though if you are low income, an $800 voucher can make for a nice long weekend somewhere that you might otherwise not be able to afford. Instead of going to the local lake for the weekend, fly somewhere new and exciting.
I do recall one time United got me to LAX way late and made me miss my connection, and to make up for it, the gate agent said he would "bump me to first class for the next available flight". The next available flight was a Brasilia. :facepalm:
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Don't feed the troll.
Chris
?
Do please elaborate.
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well I know the stock can bounce back but it has cost them over 600 million so far.
If they keep making it worse heads are going to roll even if it was legal.
Just looked it up. Interestingly, in general their stock has been improving.
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Legal or not, intentionally sellng more than you can provide in any service is a dishonest practice... so we are off to a bad start already.
Being that travel is not only about cash but also the consumer's time, people are right to demand the service on the date and time advertised by the seller. Clearly, compensation offered in this case was not enough (according to the market- the passengers on board) and needs to be reviewed if it failed ot create sufficient incentive, not forced by goons. If UA "bumping" procedure leads to physical confrontation in the cabin of their planes, then that procedure is ass backwards. Backing up a dishonest -yet legal- business practice with force is just slimy.
So then are you okay with No Refunds on tickets, no matter the reason ?? Because once that airplane takes off with an empty seat, you can never get that revenue. And those 4-5 seats (or less) might be the profit margin (or less) then that flight.
Still have trouble believing it wouldn't have been cheaper for them to move their crew some other way with zero backlash. Rent a van for one day and give the janitor 10 hours of overtime to drive so the crew gets to rest; what would that take, $600, tops, including fuel and a meal for everybody at IHOP?
And once again you opine on matters you know little about.
So No, probably not. For all the reasons that Flys320s outlined, plus what if the plane they are due to fly is sitting in Louisville waiting for that crew? They made the decision that it was a better customer service choice to disrupt 4 passengers at ORD then 40-50 or more in Louisville.
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. . . and Duffelblog weighs in:
Pentagon awards contract to United Airlines to forcibly remove Assad
http://www.duffelblog.com/2017/04/pentagon-awards-contract-united-airlines-forcibly-remove-assad/#ixzz4dzMwOo8K
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"You do what we say, when we say, and there won't be a problem. Capiche?"
Capisce. (Italian spelling Nazi ;) )
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Capisce. (Italian spelling Nazi ;) )
It's Jimmy Kimmel's bit. So blame him.
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Legal or not, intentionally sellng more than you can provide in any service is a dishonest practice... so we are off to a bad start already.
Being that travel is not only about cash but also the consumer's time, people are right to demand the service on the date and time advertised by the seller. Clearly, compensation offered in this case was not enough (according to the market- the passengers on board) and needs to be reviewed if it failed ot create sufficient incentive, not forced by goons. If UA "bumping" procedure leads to physical confrontation in the cabin of their planes, then that procedure is ass backwards. Backing up a dishonest -yet legal- business practice with force is just slimy.
Who do they think they are? The Government?
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http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reason-man-dragged-off-united-flight-stop-happening/?utm_content=buffer01982&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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http://imgur.com/r/gifs/RfOii8P
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[Rosa Parks]Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right [/Rosa Parks]
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Be careful what you write -- somebody might remember.
http://www.ibtimes.com/political-capital/united-airlines-promised-federal-regulators-all-ticketed-passengers-are-guaranteed
In September 2014 comments to federal officials, the Chicago-based airline outlined its opposition to proposed rules that sought more disclosure of the fees airlines charge to customers. One of the rules at issue was designed to compel airlines to more explicitly disclose fees charged for reserving specific seats.
“Including advance-seat-assignment charges among the ‘basic ancillary service’ fees that must be disclosed as part of initial fare displays makes no sense,” the airline wrote to the Department of Transportation. “Every ticket, of course, guarantees a passenger a seat on the plane, with no additional mandatory seat-assignment charges."
Later in the filing, United Airlines expanded on its promise to regulators that it guarantees every ticketed passenger a seat.
“Importantly, every passenger who buys a ticket on a United flight or a flight on any of United’s partners or competitors in the United States will be assigned a seat at no additional charge (though in some cases this will still happen at the gate),” the airline wrote. “Therefore, the rule does not need to prescribe how carriers must disclose charges concerning advance seat assignments because passengers need not purchase this service to receive a seat assignment.”
I think the article is taking those statements out of context, but it still doesn't help United's image problems.
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And those 4-5 seats (or less) might be the profit margin (or less) then that flight.
Don't actually know, but I'm going to guess that it takes a LOT more than 4-5 seats. Perhaps Fly320 can give real numbers?
So No, probably not. For all the reasons that Flys320s outlined, plus what if the plane they are due to fly is sitting in Louisville waiting for that crew? They made the decision that it was a better customer service choice to disrupt 4 passengers at ORD then 40-50 or more in Louisville.
A lack of planning on your part does not make an emergency on my part.
Proper planning prevents piss poor performance.
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http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article143948159.html
This story states that over 40K fliers were bumped last year.
Bull crap!
They were reaccommodated. :rofl:
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I guess a flood of social media outrage, a barrage of negative major media coverage, and more than a billion in stock value loss finally got the point across that half-axed apologies ain't gonna cut it.
https://hub.united.com/united-express-3411-statement-oscar-munoz-2355968629.html?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral
Brad
What he actually meant...
Dear Union Parasites,
The racists bastards in the outside world aren't accepting my bloviation for personally ordering Companyt Goon Whitey McWhiterson to drag Ching Chong Charlie Chan's ass off the plane.
In fact they're punishing the company through lower stock prices, which is hurting your 401K and company pension tremendously.
You'll be relieved to know, however, that no matter what happens I'll still be getting my $6 million annual salary.
To address this ongoing fiasco, I have:
1. Ordered the company spokesman to cry on TV when talking about this incident. If he can't or won't, he'll be getting a visit from Whitey McWhiterson.
2. Forbidden Ching Chong Charlie Chan from ever flying United again, because we're going to stick to our claim that he was combative and belligerent BEFORE people started recording on their cell phones.
3. Ordered installation of cell phone scramblers on all aircraft that will also scramble video capture to this sort of thing never happens again.
4. Ordered a smear campaign claiming the doctor is actually a Oxy sniffing rump ranger, and
5. Ordered my 4th martini, because I'm tired of talking about this, because all your faces are stupid.
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Don't actually know, but I'm going to guess that it takes a LOT more than 4-5 seats. Perhaps Fly320 can give real numbers?
No idea. I don't dabble in Voo-Doo. If you really want to know, all the information is available. For a rough estimate, divide the yearly profit by the number of passengers. If you want to go deeper down that rabbit hole, you'll get into RASMs, CASMs, and other esoteric airline terms.
A lack of planning on your part does not make an emergency on my part.
Proper planning prevents piss poor performance.
That is funny. It really is.
You mean planned out like selling tickets up to a year in advance? Or planning the aircraft routing weeks in advance so that the right size plane is in the right city at the right time? And making sure all those aircraft get the proper inspections at the proper time, even if that means flying empty planes to maintenance bases? Or giving flight crews their schedules a month in advance? Or do you mean the planning that is in place so when a plane breaks down there is a way to get it fixed and flying again, even if it means bringing a crew in from another city? Or maybe you mean the planning that is in place so when a flight is overbooked, there is a plan to decide who gets bumped? I guess you could mean the plan that is in place so when a big storm shuts down a major airport for two days there is a plan to get the operation restarted.
Do you have any idea much freaking planning is already in place so the average dumbass can take a flight across the country safely and cheaply?
Yeah, I fly planes, but the hands-on flying is a small part of it. That is the fun part, but most of the work is done by automation these days. What I really do is plan ahead for the usual "what ifs." While the once-a-year flier is sitting in the back bitching that his TV isn't working, I'm planning where to go and what to do when Boston Logan closes, or when POTUS has the airspace shut down and I'm running low on fuel. Or maybe I'm planning to get the plane fixed on arrival so I can help keep the operation running smoothly.
Have you noticed the safety record of airlines over the last 30 years? You can thank planning.
Oh, but if we have one flight get delayed or overbooked it is the f*cking end of times!!
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OMG this is incredible!
"In March, United's Munoz was honored at the annual PRWeek U.S. awards ceremony in New York, where he was named the group's U.S.-based communicator of the year."
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I wonder if PRWeek is sending out a team to reclaim his award? :laugh:
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This situation wasn't a result of bad planning. It was bad decision making. A wise CEO of an airline would convince his Board that in view of the profits being mad and the good life all are experiencing, when the odd problem such as United just had, we can solve it. So. We are going to quit playing games trying to get volunteers by trying to get the lowest bidder. We are going to offer 2 times the cost of the ticket, in cash. We will provide at least 2 free flights with first class upgrades for any future domestic flights. VIP treatment, whatever that might entail, until the next available flight to the destination as well as having their luggage met at the destination of this flight and safely stored till arrival. We'll need security to handle the stampede.
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Or planning the aircraft routing weeks in advance so that the right size plane is in the right city at the right time? We've have commercial flying for how long now? I would think that's pretty much set in stone. And making sure all those aircraft get the proper inspections at the proper time, even if that means flying empty planes to maintenance bases? I would really hope that regular inspections and maintenance is pretty routine. Or giving flight crews their schedules a month in advance? Kind of goes along with the first one. Or do you mean the planning that is in place so when a plane breaks down there is a way to get it fixed and flying again, even if it means bringing a crew in from another city? I would also hope that that has gotten to be a pretty routine. Certainly there are pre-planned responses to this type of thing. Or maybe you mean the planning that is in place so when a flight is overbooked, there is a plan to decide who gets bumped? Besides that that shouldn't actually happen? Besides that, there is the whole offering refunds, cash, tickets, etc., etc. which is already in place. I guess you could mean the plan that is in place so when a big storm shuts down a major airport for two days there is a plan to get the operation restarted. No, don't know why you think I might be talking about that.
Do you have any idea much freaking planning is already in place so the average dumbass can take a flight across the country safely and cheaply?
Yeah, I fly planes, but the hands-on flying is a small part of it. That is the fun part, but most of the work is done by automation these days. What I really do is plan ahead for the usual "what ifs." While the once-a-year flier is sitting in the back bitching that his TV isn't working, I'm planning where to go and what to do when Boston Logan closes, or when POTUS has the airspace shut down and I'm running low on fuel. Or maybe I'm planning to get the plane fixed on arrival so I can help keep the operation running smoothly.
Have you noticed the safety record of airlines over the last 30 years? You can thank planning.
Oh, but if we have one flight get delayed or overbooked it is the f*cking end of times!!
Being delayed is one thing. I've been on a few delayed flights. Being overbooked shouldn't happen to begin with.
No, what I am talking about is the piss poor planning that started this mess, which then they turned into an emergency on the person who purchased a ticket.
Are you double spacing after a period? Geezer! And even after a question mark. lol :P
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This situation wasn't a result of bad planning. It was bad decision making. A wise CEO of an airline would convince his Board that in view of the profits being mad and the good life all are experiencing, when the odd problem such as United just had, we can solve it. So. We are going to quit playing games trying to get volunteers by trying to get the lowest bidder. We are going to offer 2 times the cost of the ticket, in cash. We will provide at least 2 free flights with first class upgrades for any future domestic flights. VIP treatment, whatever that might entail, until the next available flight to the destination as well as having their luggage met at the destination of this flight and safely stored till arrival. We'll need security to handle the stampede.
They wouldn't have to go that far. Refund the ticket in cash or $500 cash whichever is more, put up at cheap-decent motel for the night, priority boarding on the next flight to that destination, and luggage met at destination. I'd jump at that unless I just absolutely needed to be at my destination the next morning.
The key is the cash refund rather than some useless voucher.
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A lack of planning on your part does not make an emergency on my part.
Exactly; at what point did the totally automated self-fly system on the waiting plane go out and alert them that it would be needing a crew for its scheduled flight? Oh, wait; the plane needed a crew in the right place from the moment the flight was scheduled.
You mean planned out like selling tickets up to a year in advance? Or planning the aircraft routing weeks in advance so that the right size plane is in the right city at the right time? And making sure all those aircraft get the proper inspections at the proper time, even if that means flying empty planes to maintenance bases?
So how does all that expert planning end up with the crew in the wrong state the day before?
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Exactly; at what point did the totally automated self-fly system on the waiting plane go out and alert them that it would be needing a crew for its scheduled flight? Oh, wait; the plane needed a crew in the right place from the moment the flight was scheduled.
So how does all that expert planning end up with the crew in the wrong state the day before?
Err... exigences don't happen? The previous flight crew (or a significant portion) all got sick? Had a death in the family?
I'm of the opinion that airlines are perfectly justified overbooking and even kicking people off flights. They better have a really good reason for it and "we didn't want to pay enough to induce people to get off" when it's trying to deal with its own emergencies doesn't cut it. Especially AFTER people had already been seated. I'm aware the airlines don't count that as "boarding" but EVERY SANE PERSON DOES. If you're going to actually pull people off of a flight they've gotten onto, you better make sure it's done willingly. (Note, this isn't about rights, this is about PR and treating your customers right.)
They are perfectly within their rights, but juuuuuuuust missed "best practices" on this one.
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Err... exigences don't happen? The previous flight crew (or a significant portion) all got sick? Had a death in the family?
Miraculously between the time people were allowed to board this flight and the time it left the gate?
I suspect their consolation prizes would have met with more acceptance had they been offered outside before anyone got their carryons tucked away and settled into their seats.
The racists bastards in the outside world aren't accepting my bloviation for personally ordering Companyt Goon Whitey McWhiterson to drag Ching Chong Charlie Chan's ass off the plane.
Just seems way too convenient that it was a small Asian guy rather than a 6'6" bodybuilder/biker that they "randomly" chose to remove involuntarily. Almost wish it had turned out to be Ching Chong Jackie Chan.
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Being overbooked shouldn't happen to begin with.
I agree. It is a stupid idea. It should have been banned years ago.
Are you double spacing after a period? Geezer! And even after a question mark. lol :P
I identify as old school. Besides, these new fangled computers will never catch on.
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Exactly; at what point did the totally automated self-fly system on the waiting plane go out and alert them that it would be needing a crew for its scheduled flight? Oh, wait; the plane needed a crew in the right place from the moment the flight was scheduled.
So how does all that expert planning end up with the crew in the wrong state the day before?
Miraculously between the time people were allowed to board this flight and the time it left the gate?
I suspect their consolation prizes would have met with more acceptance had they been offered outside before anyone got their carryons tucked away and settled into their seats.
Just seems way too convenient that it was a small Asian guy rather than a 6'6" bodybuilder/biker that they "randomly" chose to remove involuntarily. Almost wish it had turned out to be Ching Chong Jackie Chan.
Are you just trying to be a troll or just have no clue as to the saying, *expletive deleted*it happens?
Sometimes flight crews get too many hours just because *expletive deleted*it happens outside of their control and are unable to take a flight.
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Miraculously between the time people were allowed to board this flight and the time it left the gate?
You know the time frame of when the deadhead crew was added to the flight? That is impressive. Do you have a contact in United's crew scheduling department?
I suspect their consolation prizes would have met with more acceptance had they been offered outside before anyone got their carryons tucked away and settled into their seats.
I wasn't there, but I bet the offer was made before boarding. And even if the offer happened after boarding, that doesn't change anything.
Just seems way too convenient that it was a small Asian guy rather than a 6'6" bodybuilder/biker that they "randomly" chose to remove involuntarily. Almost wish it had turned out to be Ching Chong Jackie Chan.
Maybe the 6'6" bodybuilder/biker would have been polite when he left the aircraft instead of resisting, like the Dr.
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Miraculously between the time people were allowed to board this flight and the time it left the gate?
I doubt it happened just after all the passengers had been boarded. However, it could have. Additionally, given they had to FIND a flight crew and confirm any flights that could get them where they needed to be, it's not surprising that they might just make it in time for the last flight of the day to their destination. When things get messed up (as this clearly was the case) it creates a domino effect. So, yes, it is completely possible the staff knew nothing about needing the extra seats until everyone was on the plane.
NOW, as I said, if your passengers are already on the flight, you better take EXTRA care about removing them. The doctor in this case was also wrong, but the airline screwed up monumentally.
I'd go so far as to say airlines ought never to use force to remove a passenger who is not a danger. I know they have a right to do so, but as we have just seen, they chose poorly in exercising that right.
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Are you just trying to be a troll or just have no clue as to the saying, *expletive deleted*it happens?
I actually asked KD5 that once directly if he was just trolling the board, or if he really believed the stuff he said. He claimed he was usually trying to be humorous. I tried explaining that it was not coming across well. At all. By anyone, and I did statistically valid sampling. I still really do think KD5NRH means well, but is not good at communicating over the internet. To be entirely fair, he did tone down the essentially suicidal suggestions he used to make.
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What a lot of people are forgetting that United may have wanted this guy off the plane but it was 5-0 that roughed him up.
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What a lot of people are forgetting that United may have wanted this guy off the plane but it was 5-0 that roughed him up.
As I said earlier, when you call the police (especially the CHICAGO police), they are going to use force. Don't call the cops if you don't want force used.
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The overbooking thing is a non-issue. It happens because it is a statistically relevant necessity. The issue here is the airline personnel's actions or lack thereof, the police's use of force in a situation where it was absolutely unjustified, and the generally piss-poor way the entire situation was handled in both camps. It was made exponentially worse by the United CEO's gawdawfully incompetent initial followup.
In this day and age of everything being posted to social media you NEVER do something as asinine as using force to throw an in-good-standing paying passenger off a plane, especially because you need the room for employees. Yes, the employees are a critical part of the airline's operational needs but paying passengers don't give a damn. Regardless of fiscal reality, to them being bumped for an airline employee is someone getting a free seat over a bought-and-paid-for ticket. No matter the actual business necessity the general public's response will be (not "could be", "might be", or "may possibly be") to hoist you up with your own petard. This goes double for an industry where use of their product has become increasingly burdensome (travel regs), less convenient (security requirements), and generally less comfortable (smaller seats and more compact rows). Anyone, and I mean anyone associated in the very least with the travel, customer service, or PR industries who claims they couldn't have anticipated the general public's level of response to this incident needs to seek other employment.
Short version... They chose poorly.
Brad
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Right to do so or not does not make it right. Technically right or not it was a dick move on the airlines part, which was doubled down on when they decided force was appropriate. And then they went in to full on dick stepping mode when they didn't immediately say whoever made the decision to call the police, instead of whoever could authorize a higher compensation offer, *expletive deleted*ed up.
Seriously, there's no one a step or two up the food chain who can authorize baiting the hook with tastier bait till someone takes it and willingly gets off the plane?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It happens because it is a statistically relevant necessity.
Necessity? You've never read any sort of contract where a refund for cancellation less than X time before a given date was contingent on the seller's ability to find another buyer to pay for the product/service they reserved for you, and/or no refund at all if not cancelled at least Y before said date/time? Cancellations under that policy would benefit the airlines; if they can't fill the seat, they still get the same amount of money and the plane is ~200lbs lighter. If they sell the seat at the last minute rate, they get more money.
Short version... They chose poorly.
Never miss an opportunity to double down:
http://www.latimes.com/business/lazarus/la-fi-lazarus-united-low-priority-passenger-20170412-story.html
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As I said earlier, when you call the police (especially the CHICAGO police), they are going to use force. Don't call the cops if you don't want force used.
The only realistic fix I can see is letting the airline offer actual cash incentives rather than just credit for more plane tickets. Credit might mean something to frequent flyers, but for someone like me it would be nothing at all. However, I bet the local people were following their rules including calling the cops.
Overbooking probably doesn't cost the airline a great deal in direct costs as they are usually rescheduling those people to flights that are not full in the first place. Maybe a little extra fuel on the 2nd plane.
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http://gomerblog.com/2017/04/top-10-reasons-united/
:)
bob
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United has been saved further immolation! It is Trump's fault (freakin' all the Sulus are whack, yo)!
http://twitchy.com/sd-3133/2017/04/10/brace-yourselves-guess-who-star-trek-star-john-cho-blames-for-united-mess/
I think we all remember how Trump would end each campaign speech with, "We're going to make America great again. We're going to get these Asian physicians off our planes. Blood and soil. Heil me!"
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The only realistic fix I can see is letting the airline offer actual cash incentives rather than just credit for more plane tickets. Credit might mean something to frequent flyers, but for someone like me it would be nothing at all. However, I bet the local people were following their rules including calling the cops.
Are the airlines legally prohibited from offering cash?
The problem (for the airlines) is that cash incentives mean paying the actual value of the cash. Giving someone a ticket "worth" $800 means the face value of the ticket, not the actual cost to the airline for letting the person sit in that seat on some future flight. I have no idea what the profit margin is on a seat, but maybe that $800 voucher (if redeemed) ends up only costing the airline $500 or so.
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Are the airlines legally prohibited from offering cash?
Maybe if they offered the severed heads of their executives and schedulers as part of the package...
Frankly, after all the good press Southwest has gotten lately, I just can't see United recovering from this without some serious long term consequences.
Dang...when the dictionary is dissin' you, you done screwed the pooch hard:
https://twitter.com/MerriamWebster/status/851441589763407873
https://twitter.com/MerriamWebster/status/851480446064103447
https://twitter.com/MerriamWebster/status/851602942037819392
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They will be ok the government will dump a bunch of our money into them.
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Are the airlines legally prohibited from offering cash?
The problem (for the airlines) is that cash incentives mean paying the actual value of the cash. Giving someone a ticket "worth" $800 means the face value of the ticket, not the actual cost to the airline for letting the person sit in that seat on some future flight. I have no idea what the profit margin is on a seat, but maybe that $800 voucher (if redeemed) ends up only costing the airline $500 or so.
They are legally REQUIRED to pay cash for involuntary kicking folks off the plane. And there are laws on the compensation depending on how long it takes. You have to request cash rather than voucher (they will generally not tell you cash is an option), and if you're smart, you demand a check on the spot. And get proof that you are being involuntarily kicked off the plane. Max is only $1350 however. It's federal law, and not optional.
For voluntary people opting off the plane... No regulation. They virtually always offer you vouchers, that come with restrictions and blackout periods. If you're smart, you go with a check. On the spot.
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They will be ok the government will dump a bunch of our money into them.
One can hope Trump knows the value of a bad example to the competition. Hang their corpse out by the gate for the others to learn from.
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They are legally REQUIRED to pay cash for involuntary kicking folks off the plane. And there are laws on the compensation depending on how long it takes. You have to request cash rather than voucher (they will generally not tell you cash is an option), and if you're smart, you demand a check on the spot. And get proof that you are being involuntarily kicked off the plane. Max is only $1350 however. It's federal law, and not optional.
For voluntary people opting off the plane... No regulation. They virtually always offer you vouchers, that come with restrictions and blackout periods. If you're smart, you go with a check. On the spot.
Source for that one? I don't fly anymore than I have to, but that would be a handy thing to cite if needed.
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Which part of the doctor's fight or flight response was triggered here?
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Source for that one? I don't fly anymore than I have to, but that would be a handy thing to cite if needed.
https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights
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Having dealt with this (not the pax part, but the need a crew ASAP part), we'd have planes mechanical on the ground. Get the mechanics working to fix whatever was broken. Meanwhile, the crew due to fly the plane is going to be out of hours before scheduled landing time at destination. Need to get a new crew with hours available. Or perhaps there was weather somewhere that caused the crew that was supposed to fly to run out of hours. The flight hours rules are DoT regs. You know to keep your ass safe from over-tired pilots that have been flying 24-7 without sleep. Same DoT regs that govern how many hours truckers can drive in a day/week. You know to keep 80,000 lbs trucks from being driven by hopped up, amphetamine filled, sleep deprived maniacs.
That's sounds like what happened here. They went to the max offer (IIRC 400% of ticket price or in this case $800), and no one bit. Now the Airline has a choice. Inconvenience 4 people at ORD or 40-50 or even more people in L-ville.
Not to mention that Doc *expletive deleted*bag was screwing with the 40-50 people on the plane he was on. His antics caused a delay that may have costed those 40-50 people on his plane to miss connections.
And yeah, he's a *expletive deleted*bag. "I'm a physician." I'm more important the the rest of you peons. I'm ready to barf at the number of people that went into "They shouldn't bump a doctor, He's important !!" Nope, he's just like everyone else on that plane, no better, no worst. He played bump-off bingo and lost.
Plus, let's not lose sight of the entire Federal Felony he committed. You know the one they clearly state before every flight. About tampering with the bathroom smoke detectors not following the instructions of the crew. That's why the police were called.
and finally:
IT WAS NOT OVERBOOKED
contrary to what has been repeated in the media. The airline needed to re-position a crew. That takes priority over everything (if you read the fine print that you agree to when you click on "I accept", when you purchase your ticket.) *expletive deleted*it happens, if they don't get enough people to accept the goodies offered to be bumped, then the computer gets to pick. Those 40-50 people all took their chances, 4 lost. 3 accepted the results, grabbed their lovely parting gifts and went on their way. One decided he was more damn important then everyone on at least 2 aircraft. *expletive deleted*ck him.
And yeah, I've been bumped. Even by my own damn company. (Airborne Express, supposed to go to Wilmington for training and a meeting in the jumpseat in DC-8. They needed a crew, so I get left on the tarmac...sucked to be me.)
And got bumped two summers ago going to Charleston (voluntary as I was the last check-in). Got $800 from SWA and flew out 2 hours later. Well worth it.
And guess what. Now flight delays are going to rise, because when (not if) a situation like this arises again, people are going to play lawsuit lottery. (Doc *expletive deleted*bag says that to whomever he is speaking with on his phone, "Make a lawsuit against United" moments before the more famous video; when the United folks and Chicago Aviation Police were explaining the situation to him, before they put the Haebeus Grabbus on his dumb ass).
And what a *expletive deleted*tard. Not only was he willing to go up against the police, but the Chicago Aviation Police, which are off-duty Chicago PD. He must not watch the news...
The should arrest his ass the minute he walks out of the hospital. Oh, that's another thing. All those people that are screaming "What about his patients on Monday". Well, it's *expletive deleted*ing Thursday, and Doc Dumbass *expletive deleted*bag is still in the hospital here in Chicago. So that's four day's worth of patients he's not seeing, screwing up their lives, instead of one days (or less). Self-centered, self important, self righteous prick.
Yeah, and United's stock is pretty much recovered. Down no more than usual fluctuations in that stock.
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You offer some valid points, Scout. On the flip side -- what time did that replacement crew need to be in Louisville, and when did the flight finally arrive there after the delay of taking the guy off the plane (twice), then disembarking the entire passenger list to scrub the plane, then re-boarding everyone? Yes, you can blame all that on the doctor for being a jerk, and there's some validity to that (okay, even a lot of validity). But ... that crew still probably didn't get to Louisville in time for whatever flight they were supposed to be flying.
And I still haven't seen a single article that says United followed its printed bumping priority scheme in choosing the doctor. It sounds more like they used the computer to pull a name at random, and that's not what the contract says.
In other news, United has a new policy: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-united-boarding-20170412-story.html
Oscar now says he felt "shame" when he watched the video. That alleged shame was not well expressed in his initial high-five memo to the airline's employees immediate following the incident. United must be working with a professional damage control consultant. I doubt Oscar Munoz has ever felt a moment of shame in his entire life.
Comments on the article:
“Eliminating empty seats is a good idea because it keeps fares down,” he said. “People don’t like it because it’s crowded, but still, they care more about the price than anything.”
Perhaps some passengers care more about the price than anything, but I doubt it. People are already upset about shrinking seats, shrinking seat pitch, additional charges for carry-on items and checked bags, deteriorating (or disappearing) food, and the general hassle of flying. I seriously doubt if anyone would care at all if ticket prices were $5 or $10 higher across the board if the airline industry would reverse the current trend toward making coach class into a flying cattle car.
Rather than changing policies on overbooking, airlines should adjust their compensation policies to get more volunteers to take a later flight, he said. Currently, federal rules cap the compensation amount that airlines can pay for involuntary bumping at $1,350.
Do the federal regulations "cap" the compensation at $1,350, or is that simple the maximum they are required to pay? Would the federal government actually sanction an airline for offering $1,500 or $2,000 to induce volunteers for bumping?
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Heard last night, may have already been brought up, but everyone on that flight was reimbursed for the price of their ticket.
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Perhaps some passengers care more about the price than anything, but I doubt it.
Look at the world around you. When you go to buy a product or service do you factor in price? Do you look for a cheaper option? Do you use coupons or discount codes? Maybe you don't, but I bet 90% of people do.
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Same DoT regs that govern how many hours truckers can drive in a day/week. You know to keep 80,000 lbs trucks from being driven by hopped up, amphetamine filled, sleep deprived maniacs.
Yeah, because those work so well. (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/30/trucker-drives-cross-country-nonstop-fueled-by-crystal-meth-cocaine-massachusetts-police-say.html)
They went to the max offer (IIRC 400% of ticket price or in this case $800)
$800 voucher. Worth very little to plenty of people. I fly commercial when it can't wait for a drive and I can't find a GA pilot wanting some flight hours at my expense. Funerals, other people's weddings and similar events don't wait. That means getting there RFN is the only concern, and a voucher for something I do maybe once every 3-4 years, likely non-transferable and expiring before I will need it is literally not worth the paper it's printed on to me.
Not to mention that Doc *expletive deleted*bag was screwing with the 40-50 people on the plane he was on. His antics caused a delay that may have costed those 40-50 people on his plane to miss connections.
Oh sure, it's like those self righteous bastards that fire guns in residential areas just because they have a burglar.
IT WAS NOT OVERBOOKED
Yes, it was, as long as it was on their options list as a crew taxi. That's like saying if I have a tanker truck and fill the fuel tanks with product to get a little extra space, I wasn't over capacity and it's nobody's fault that I had to dump a few hundred gallons of product to get the fuel range needed.
Yeah, and United's stock is pretty much recovered. Down no more than usual fluctuations in that stock.
How's their market share? A lot of people saw the chance to grab cheap stock, and that got the price back up for the moment, but if even half the people saying they're going to Southwest from now on are telling the truth, United is going to be losing even more market share, and the stock will drop again as the investors see the long term effects of driving away a large number of customers.
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Just saw the news conference with the guy's attorney. It appears they are only suing United. Interesting, since the entire physical portion of the incident was between him and government employees.
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Just saw the news conference with the guy's attorney. It appears they are only suing United. Interesting, since the entire physical portion of the incident was between him and government employees.
I've read that if United didn't have the right to kick him off the plane (which appears to be in dispute), then their request that the police intervene was illegitimate, meaning they are also at fault for the police response.
Of course, I'm not sure why he's not also suing everyone else he can, but that MAY be why.
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Look at the world around you. When you go to buy a product or service do you factor in price? Do you look for a cheaper option? Do you use coupons or discount codes? Maybe you don't, but I bet 90% of people do.
Of course I factor in price. But for a difference of $5 or $10 I'll always pick a better airline over a cheaper airline. My late wife was from Chile. Basically, the two airlines we could choose from were LAN Chile (now LATAM) and American. We flew American once -- and said "Never again." After that flight from hell, price didn't matter -- EVERYTHING about LAN Chile was better, so we never considered American again. And if the entire industry boosted prices by $5 per coach seat, so they could give us back enough legroom for a normal male to actually sit straight in the seat, and make flying just a little bit less of a torture than what they've created over the past few years, people would never notice. What we notice is that a few years ago we could check two bags for free, now it's only one -- and they want a LOT of money for the second. (Some airlines charge for even the first checked bag these days -- and then they wonder why people have more carry-on bags than can possibly fit in the overheads.)
In many cases, price isn't the deciding factor. Maybe only one airline flies the route. Or maybe only one airline has a flight that fits the schedule the passenger needs to follow. At that point, price isn't even a secondary factor -- it doesn't enter into the equation at all.
I live on the east coast. After the miserable experience I had flying to Las Vegas for the SHOT Show in January, I doubt I'll ever fly anywhere in the continental U.S. again. I'd rather rent an economy car and blow three days driving -- it would only be a day longer than the flight eventually took me, it'll be far more comfortable, and it'll be cheaper. Back in the 1960s and 1970s I loved flying. Now I hate it. Flying is to be avoided at all costs -- and the airlines have mostly done it to themselves. (With a bit of help from the TSA, of course.)
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Heard last night, may have already been brought up, but everyone on that flight was reimbursed for the price of their ticket.
That's nice, but how is that going to induce future flyers to choose United over an airline that doesn't "re-accommodate" passengers on a gurney?
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I've read that if United didn't have the right to kick him off the plane (which appears to be in dispute), then their request that the police intervene was illegitimate, meaning they are also at fault for the police response.
Of course, I'm not sure why he's not also suing everyone else he can, but that MAY be why.
The passenger had a contract with United Airlines, not with the Chicago Airport Police. My guess is that, since they cops (or security personnel -- whatever their status is at ORD) were essentially enforcing a United Airlines policy at United's request, they were acting as agents of United Airlines rather than enforcing an Illinois or federal law.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9Ldb6XWAAAjkQe.jpg)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9JUJu_UMAAbBls.jpg)
I thought this one was really funny, but I am not quite sure why.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C9Km-sTVwAAg8z2.jpg)
I heard he isn't Chinese, but why interrupt a good joke with facts.
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United may have complied with the law and they may have complied with their policies. That appears to be debatable; but let's assume its true. The Doctor is probably a Jackass; and seems to have some questionable history. Doesn't really matter. This was still wrong. Just because the law allows something or company policies state something especially in fine print doesn't make an action morally correct.
They would have to offer me a lot more than 400 or 800 in vouchers I would likely never use to get me out of my seat. I had at one point about 250,000 miles on American when I was traveling back and forth to India and never used those miles. It would likely also be a major hassle for me to have travel extended 24 hours like that. I have a small farm; Chickens, Ducks, occasionally pigs, etc. never mind the cats and dogs. It can be a major hassle just to get someone to feed and water for me when I have to travel for work. Trying to get someone to cover another day or even two may not be possible. And make no mistake he may not have gotten out the next day either. I did this deal once when I was younger; they said next flight in two hours I could get on. Next thing I knew I was staying in the airport overnight as they actually could t find a flight that wasn't full to get me on as I was considered standby for all of them. Not worth it; and I never even did use that voucher.
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Next thing I knew I was staying in the airport overnight as they actually could t find a flight that wasn't full to get me on as I was considered standby for all of them. Not worth it; and I never even did use that voucher.
My aunt worked for Delta years ago, she always said standby means you stand by and watch your flight take off without you.
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Perhaps some passengers care more about the price than anything, but I doubt it. People are already upset about shrinking seats, shrinking seat pitch, additional charges for carry-on items and checked bags, deteriorating (or disappearing) food, and the general hassle of flying. I seriously doubt if anyone would care at all if ticket prices were $5 or $10 higher across the board if the airline industry would reverse the current trend toward making coach class into a flying cattle car.
Do the federal regulations "cap" the compensation at $1,350, or is that simple the maximum they are required to pay? Would the federal government actually sanction an airline for offering $1,500 or $2,000 to induce volunteers for bumping?
The regs are the minimum for involuntary overbookings. The airlines would not be sanctioned. But few if any airlines would ever go above the regulated minimum for involuntary bumps.
There is no min or max for volunteers taking a bump. Hence why most of the time they'll push vouchers on you.
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My aunt worked for Delta years ago, she always said standby means you stand by and watch your flight take off without you.
I've heard that before. That flight voucher I never used ended up costing me watching two flights I think leave and a night sleeping on the floor at Stapleton then finally getting out sometime the next day. Also the person picking me up had to wait hours before I could tell them I wasn't getting out and then take a day off work to come get me the next day. Before the days of everyone having cell phones so difficulties communicating too. They needed to up the bidding and it needed to be cash on the spot and if the law doesn't allow that it needs to change. There shouldn't be any limit in the law to what they have to pay, just what it takes until someone on that plane says yep that is worth it to me.
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The Kentucky doctor who was dragged off a United Airlines flight on Sunday received a significant concussion and broken nose, and also lost two front teeth, his lawyer revealed Thursday.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/04/13/united-doctor-suffered-concussion-while-being-dragged-from-flight-lawyer-says.html
Damn, dudes don't even take ass beatings like this in Fight Club.
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Judge Napolitano has now weighed in.
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/5397409460001/?#sp=show-clips
He seems to be responding to a press conference by the doctor's attorney, which I haven't seen. Apparently the doctor suffered injuries far beyond just a split lip.
So much for "Fly the friendly skies."
Also Judge Jeanine (fast forward to about 2:45):
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5395410894001/?intcmp=obnetwork#sp=show-clips
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How's their market share? A lot of people saw the chance to grab cheap stock, and that got the price back up for the moment, but if even half the people saying they're going to Southwest from now on are telling the truth, United is going to be losing even more market share, and the stock will drop again as the investors see the long term effects of driving away a large number of customers.
I think their market share will do fine. The media and everyone and their brother are making a circus of this right now. In the end, United is a large carrier. There are plenty of airports in the country where you're pretty much flying United (or American or Delta) to certain destinations or nothing. Unless they lose hubs, they're likely not losing business when everyone forgets this ever happened in a month or so when some bakery doesn't bake a cake again.
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Yeah,
How's their market share? A lot of people saw the chance to grab cheap stock, and that got the price back up for the moment, but if even half the people saying they're going to Southwest from now on are telling the truth, United is going to be losing even more market share, and the stock will drop again as the investors see the long term effects of driving away a large number of customers.
(http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/03/30/trucker-drives-cross-country-nonstop-fueled-by-crystal-meth-cocaine-massachusetts-police-say.html)
Southworst is notorious for overbooking. Hence, my free $800 for my bump to Charleston flight.
Again, it's not overbooked. Full, yes. Having to reposition a crew is usually fairly last minute, like day of. Read the fine print.
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United Airlines: We'll treat you like a king*
*Rodney King
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Another reason to avoid UAL:
http://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/scorpion-bites-passenger-on-plane?xid=TrueAnthem_Twitter
After spending two weeks on vacation in Mexico, Richard and Linda Bell were on a United Airlines flight home from Houston to Calgary on Sunday. They thought their adventure was over — until a scorpion fell from the overhead compartment and on to Richard.
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Another reason to avoid UAL:
http://www.travelandleisure.com/airlines-airports/scorpion-bites-passenger-on-plane?xid=TrueAnthem_Twitter
I really don't think the scorpion actually delivered a "bite" to the passenger. But what do I know? ;)
bob
After reading, the article actually says "stings". Although later it says "This is not the first time a scorpion had made its way onto the cabin and bit a passenger." Some people who write (web address title) should be beaten just for the hell of it, just ask Irwin!
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/04/13/united-doctor-suffered-concussion-while-being-dragged-from-flight-lawyer-says.html
Damn, dudes don't even take ass beatings like this in Fight Club.
Well, Jared Leto did.
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I think their market share will do fine. The media and everyone and their brother are making a circus of this right now. In the end, United is a large carrier.
Southworst is notorious for overbooking. Hence, my free $800 for my bump to Charleston flight.
However, they're carrying twice the passengers of United with vastly fewer complaints, so obviously they're handling the customer side of it a lot better. SWA didn't get that big by chance, and this is a good opportunity for them to leverage their customer satisfaction record to pull in more customers, and thus eventually more hubs. They're almost certainly figuring out more ways to do that right now, though IMO, hiring whoever came up with the "we beat the competition, not you" slogan within hours should be step one.
Again, it's not overbooked.
If you can't fit something you know you're likely to need, then you're over capacity. You might get lucky, but it's like a trip loadout that requires leaving your spare tire at home; if you get a flat, you have no one to blame but yourself, and you better be prepared to offer whatever it takes to get someone to help out with your screwup.
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However, they're carrying twice the passengers of United with vastly fewer complaints, so obviously they're handling the customer side of it a lot better.
I wonder if passenger expectations has anything to do with that. Southwest isn't known for frills.
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I wonder if passenger expectations has anything to do with that. Southwest isn't known for frills.
Entirely possible. It also helps that Southwest intentionally pokes fun at themselves, including flight crews and cabin personnel wading into the fray. In my experience their crews are usually the ringleaders when it comes to applying a little well-timed humor and snark. It lets pax "let their hair down a little" and un-stick whatever pickle has them puckered. Setting the tone that way makes folks a lot more tolerant of shortcomings.
Brad
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I wonder if passenger expectations has anything to do with that. Southwest isn't known for frills.
More that they're not known for low-return-on-investment frills. The kind of crap 90% of passengers don't even notice and 99% don't feel their experience is improved by gets axed first. Even if a pretty framed motivational poster only cost $50, those things add up. Frankly, a lot of that stuff is really as much for the employees as the customers; how much does the wood paneling and marble floor in a bank really matter to its customers?
The biggest part, IMO - and apparently in a huge number of air travelers' opinions too, is people that seem to genuinely enjoy and take pride in their jobs. It's the same thing that works so well for QuikTrip, at least around here; when you feel like the guy at the counter is happy to be there, (and when he shows it by keeping the men's room spotless and fully stocked for your 5-hours-on-the-road emergency) it's a lot easier to be happy to be there yourself.
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how much does the wood paneling and marble floor in a bank really matter to its customers?
Historically, quite a lot.
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I think expectations mean something when it comes to financial institutions. You want your bank to look prosperous and professional and like it is expecting to still be there in 50 years. A bank that looks like a pay day loan place in a temporary trailer will not give customers much confidence.
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I think expectations mean something when it comes to financial institutions. You want your bank to look prosperous and professional and like it is expecting to still be there in 50 years. A bank that looks like a pay day loan place in a temporary trailer will not give customers much confidence.
Big difference between looking permanent and looking like Tony Stark's weekend home. I've been in a few that were doing pretty good at a "classy but not wasteful" look.
Considering the number that have put in hanging ceilings that cover up gorgeous hand painted plaster ceilings and chandeliers, only to try to make up for it with glass, steel and artwork, it almost seems they're trying harder to spend money than to look nice. Did a wiring job once in a bank that was built in the 1920s, and it had the hanging ceiling screwed to plasterwork that would have made it a tourist stop if they hadn't covered it. (And damaged it plenty in the process.) The chandeliers hidden in that space showed signs of having been reworked, probably around the 1960s judging from the wiring, but were almost certainly original.
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Look at the world around you. When you go to buy a product or service do you factor in price? Do you look for a cheaper option? Do you use coupons or discount codes? Maybe you don't, but I bet 90% of people do.
When buying a product I'm pretty sure most people factor in the quality of it, and coupons don't affect the quality.
I always look for the cheaper option when it comes to flights, but for my wife she has to be comfortable.
Not to mention that Doc *expletive deleted*bag was screwing with the 40-50 people on the plane he was on. His antics caused a delay that may have costed those 40-50 people on his plane to miss connections.
Then you can blame every single other person on that flight. 40-50 people and all they needed was one more volunteer. They are just as guilty then for causing the delay.
And yeah, he's a *expletive deleted*bag. "I'm a physician." I'm more important the the rest of you peons. I'm ready to barf at the number of people that went into "They shouldn't bump a doctor, He's important !!" Nope, he's just like everyone else on that plane, no better, no worst. He played bump-off bingo and lost.
It's like he has patients or something to attend to.
Plus, let's not lose sight of the entire Federal Felony he committed. You know the one they clearly state before every flight. About tampering with the bathroom smoke detectors not following the instructions of the crew. That's why the police were called.
I'm just going to go off on a limb here, but I'm betting that that is not absolute.
and finally:
IT WAS NOT OVERBOOKED
Then what was the problem?
contrary to what has been repeated in the media. The airline needed to re-position a crew. That takes priority over everything (if you read the fine print that you agree to when you click on "I accept", when you purchase your ticket.) *expletive deleted*it happens, if they don't get enough people to accept the goodies offered to be bumped, then the computer gets to pick. Those 40-50 people all took their chances, 4 lost. 3 accepted the results, grabbed their lovely parting gifts and went on their way. One decided he was more damn important then everyone on at least 2 aircraft. *expletive deleted*ck him.
Should of found some other way to do it besides *expletive deleted*ing over someone who paid for their ticket to get to a certain destination at a certain time.
Oh, that's another thing. All those people that are screaming "What about his patients on Monday". Well, it's *expletive deleted*ing Thursday, and Doc Dumbass *expletive deleted*bag is still in the hospital here in Chicago. So that's four day's worth of patients he's not seeing, screwing up their lives, instead of one days (or less).
So that's four days that United and the cops that beat him has screwed over other peoples lives.
You know, when people book a flight it's generally because they need to get somewhere fast by a certain time. If not you would have people jumping at the opportunity every time their is an offer to be bumped off with compensation.
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I get that there are all sorts of caveats and disclaimers and legalese in the fine print and that by buying an airline ticket you are basically giving the airline the right to deplane your ass at 30,000 feet for any reason or no reason at all. (Which is why I don't fly)
When I pay for a service and my money has been accepted I do not think is is unreasonable to expect to receive that service more or less in the manner it was sold.
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If you can't fit something you know you're likely to need, then you're over capacity. You might get lucky, but it's like a trip loadout that requires leaving your spare tire at home; if you get a flat, you have no one to blame but yourself, and you better be prepared to offer whatever it takes to get someone to help out with your screwup.
Are you dense or just being obtuse ?? So you're suggesting that the airline set aside ~10 seats (average crew for a 747) "Just-in-case" on every flight. Tell me again about your background in the Aviation industry. Because you obviously are smarted then everyone else who worked in it. There was a saying we had in the Army. "Stay in your lane." And your are way, way outside of yours.
When buying a product I'm pretty sure most people factor in the quality of it, and coupons don't affect the quality.
I always look for the cheaper option when it comes to flights, but for my wife she has to be comfortable.
Then you can blame every single other person on that flight. 40-50 people and all they needed was one more volunteer. They are just as guilty then for causing the delay.
IIRC, they got zero volunteers. SO the computer held a lottery. 4 people lost, 3 accepted the results and Doc *expletive deleted*bag decided he was "too special" to lose.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJU4PfbcjtM
It's like he has patients or something to attend to.
And nobody else had important things to attend to ?? There could have been people going to visit a dying relative. Company sales reps that need that sale tomorrow to get that big sale to make their quarter, or beat the competition and keep their company solvent. Guess what, he could get another doc to cover for him. I've been seen by all three nephrologists in my doctor's practice. He and his kids have been sick on the days I have appointments, or he's been called into the hospital for this, that or other emergency. Guess what? I'm still here. I still get seen, and we continue to march. [
I'm just going to go off on a limb here, but I'm betting that that is not absolute.
Give it a test on you next flight and report back on your findings. .
Then what was the problem?
Last minute need to reposition a crew. The flight was full. Not overbooked. Overbooked means they sold more tickets then they had seats available. Up until the need to reposition the crew occurred, which could not be foreseen when they started selling tickets.
Should of found some other way to do it besides *expletive deleted*ing over someone who paid for their ticket to get to a certain destination at a certain time.
BZZZZZZZZZZZT WRONG. Again read the fine print. The airline agrees to move your carcass from point A to point B. You get there, when you get there. There's no guarantee as when that will be. (See weather, especially in Chicago, and how it screws up flights schedules royally.) Again, all that's in the fine print above the "I accept" button when you buy your ticket.
So that's four days that United and the cops that beat him has screwed over other peoples lives.
Point of Order. United employees never touched him. And had he cooperated, he'd have been seeing his patients since sometime Monday or Tuesday at the latest. Watch the video. When officer friendly says it's time to go, it's time to go. No here on the board shows any pity to some douchbag out on the street that decides he's not going to obey the cops and gets tuned up in the process. The reason five days (it's now Friday) of patients haven't been seen is because of the Doc *expletive deleted*bag. He needs to take responsibility for what happened. His refusal to cooperate is what got his ass beat. Notice that the other 3 passengers who complied did NOT get their asses beat. Only Doc "I fly from LA 12 hours" Special *expletive deleted*bag Snowflake.
You know, when people book a flight it's generally because they need to get somewhere fast by a certain time. If not you would have people jumping at the opportunity every time their is an offer to be bumped off with compensation.
Which is why they have processes that they use (let the computer pick) if they don't get volunteers. Does it suck. Yeah, when it happens. But it doesn't happen all that often.
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The overbooked thing has made its way permanently into the popular lore, along with George Zimmerman hunting black kids, and "I can see Russia from my house."
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And for the super SJW take on it:
http://nextshark.com/dr-david-dao-criminal-record-racism-llag/
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IIRC, they got zero volunteers. SO the computer held a lottery. 4 people lost, 3 accepted the results and Doc *expletive deleted*bag decided he was "too special" to lose.
And no one volunteered. I guess all those *expletive deleted*bags thought they were too special.
Give it a test on you next flight and report back on your findings.
They would have to give the order in order to test it.
BZZZZZZZZZZZT WRONG. Again read the fine print. The airline agrees to move your carcass from point A to point B. You get there, when you get there. There's no guarantee as when that will be. (See weather, especially in Chicago, and how it screws up flights schedules royally.) Again, all that's in the fine print above the "I accept" button when you buy your ticket.
No, not wrong. They should of found some other way besides *expletive deleted*ing over someone who paid for their ticket to get to a certain destination at a certain time. Weather wasn't the reason for this one.
Point of Order. United employees never touched him.
Clearly they didn't have to touch him.
And had he cooperated, he'd have been seeing his patients since sometime Monday or Tuesday at the latest. Watch the video. When officer friendly says it's time to go, it's time to go.
Respect my authoritah!
His refusal to cooperate is what got his ass beat.
He got his ass beat... and a broken nose, a concussion, and two missing teeth; because the airlines *expletive deleted*ed up and decided the best way to correct their mistake was to *expletive deleted*ck over some paying customers.
But it doesn't happen all that often.
Shouldn't ever happen.
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https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/the-controversial-united-airlines-flight-was-not-overbooked-and-why-that-matters.html
A take I've been seeing in other places as well.
Seems United might not have the right to bump you for their employees. Since the flight wasn't "overbooked" AND the doctor clearly had an assigned, reserved seat, they had to prioritize him over employees. **(In this take: I'm no lawyer, so this is a summation of what I've read, not an endorsement of it.)**
If that is the case, this incident just got worse. Not only are they going to take the public relations hit that has already started, the legal fees will be significant, and it would even be possible that criminal charges could be brought.
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https://www.inc.com/cynthia-than/the-controversial-united-airlines-flight-was-not-overbooked-and-why-that-matters.html
A take I've been seeing in other places as well.
Seems United might not have the right to bump you for their employees. Since the flight wasn't "overbooked" AND the doctor clearly had an assigned, reserved seat, they had to prioritize him over employees. **(In this take: I'm no lawyer, so this is a summation of what I've read, not an endorsement of it.)**
If that is the case, this incident just got worse. Not only are they going to take the public relations hit that has already started, the legal fees will be significant, and it would even be possible that criminal charges could be brought.
Well, that is an interesting twist. I wonder how it will play out in court. Every airline I have worked for has had to bump passengers for last-minute crew movement. I've bumped passengers this year for that problem. It happens often after a big weather system cancels hundreds of flights and it takes us days to get back to normal operations. We also have to bump passengers going to Caribbean islands when the flight is planned to take longer than the pilots are allowed to fly, so we have to carry extra pilots.
Look at it from this perspective. UAL bumped and inconvenienced four passengers on one flight instead of 50-70 on another flight. If the crew didn't make it to Louisville for the next flight, would those passengers get the same compensation as the four bumped from ORD? Would they understand and be patient? In my experience, no.
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Well, that is an interesting twist. I wonder how it will play out in court. Every airline I have worked for has had to bump passengers for last-minute crew movement. I've bumped passengers this year for that problem. It happens often after a big weather system cancels hundreds of flights and it takes us days to get back to normal operations. We also have to bump passengers going to Caribbean islands when the flight is planned to take longer than the pilots are allowed to fly, so we have to carry extra pilots.
Look at it from this perspective. UAL bumped and inconvenienced four passengers on one flight instead of 50-70 on another flight. If the crew didn't make it to Louisville for the next flight, would those passengers get the same compensation as the four bumped from ORD? Would they understand and be patient? In my experience, no.
Honestly, as I've said before, I thought the decision to put the crew in place was a correct one.
The problem was the implementation. Yes, MOST TIMES, forcing people from the plane works well enough, but is not optimal. People should go voluntarily.
THIS time, it was particularly bad. For this reason, it ought always to be "Volunteers" not "Voluntolds".
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Honestly, as I've said before, I thought the decision to put the crew in place was a correct one.
The problem was the implementation. Yes, MOST TIMES, forcing people from the plane works well enough, but is not optimal. People should go voluntarily.
THIS time, it was particularly bad. For this reason, it ought always to be "Volunteers" not "Voluntolds".
I agree 100%. The sticky wicket comes into play when an airline is correct in its decision to remove a passenger, but the passenger refuses to leave. That will lead to a physical confrontation, and for that the police will need to be involved. How much force should be used then? What is reasonable? I guess that is for the courts to decide.
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I agree 100%. The sticky wicket comes into play when an airline is correct in its decision to remove a passenger, but the passenger refuses to leave. That will lead to a physical confrontation, and for that the police will need to be involved. How much force should be used then? What is reasonable? I guess that is for the courts to decide.
I would say the correct response is to keep upping the offer until you have enough takers. More flies with honey than vinegar and all that. If the highest usual offer isn't enough, get someone up the food chain on the phone to authorize upping the offer. Hell, take bids from the folks that would consider it and toss those out for authorization when making said phone call. At some point either you'll find the right bait or it'll be worth switching fishin holes.
Yes, *expletive deleted*it happens. Yes, they probably had the technical right to tell the guy to get off the plane or you'll be removed. And yeah, arguing with popo was pretty stupid but police shouldn't have been involved in the first place. They (probably) had the right to be dicks, opted to be dicks instead of playing nice, and are now calling foul when people are calling them for being dicks. If you're gonna be a dick, don't bitch when you're called on it.
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I would say the correct response is to keep upping the offer until you have enough takers. More flies with honey than vinegar and all that. If the highest usual offer isn't enough, get someone up the food chain on the phone to authorize upping the offer.
I'm seeing conflicting info on it, but it appears that might be kiboshed by gov regs on what the maximum is, and/or how it is offered. I agree that the above is probably the most efficient way to do it when considering the big picture, but it sounds like gov would have to get out of the way first.
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I'm seeing conflicting info on it, but it appears that might be kiboshed by gov regs on what the maximum is, and/or how it is offered. I agree that the above is probably the most efficient way to do it when considering the big picture, but it sounds like gov would have to get out of the way first.
What I'm seeing is (SURPRISE!) no one really understands what the regulations mean and people are arguing about it.
Good job on clarity, .gov!
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...
It lets pax "let their hair down a little" and un-stick whatever pickle has them puckered.
...
Brad
OK, I've seen "pax" before in that odd usage in this thread, had to look it up, found this:
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/25162/where-does-pax-word-come-from
I may actually join that site.
Just FYI.
Terry, Groundlubber
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Amy said,
"Notice that the other 3 passengers who complied did NOT get their asses beat. Only Doc "I fly from LA 12 hours" Special *expletive deleted*bag Snowflake. "
All this special snowflake stuff reminds me of that dame who kept yelling "I'm a PhD!" at some rally/protest/riot recently. (Can't find the video.) Wanted to get somewhere closer to the "action," was stopped by security people.
What's with these people? I'm no wimp, but at least I can tell when to keep my mouth shut.
Hey, I'm 230RN ! You can't do that to ME !
Terry !
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There's a top end on the offers (400% of ticket price to a cap of $1350) for a reason. Simply because otherwise passengers would hold out until it hits a million or more. Or some other asinine number.
At a certain point, the airline would say "Screw it" and 50-70 waiting for a crew for their plane get inconvenienced. Then there would be a domino effect. Flight delays would sky rocket.
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OK, I've seen "pax" before in that odd usage in this thread, had to look it up, found this:
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/25162/where-does-pax-word-come-from
I may actually join that site.
Just FYI.
Terry, Groundlubber
When I worked for Airborne, Pax were also known as "Supercargo".
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There's a top end on the offers (400% of ticket price to a cap of $1350) for a reason. Simply because otherwise passengers would hold out until it hits a million or more. Or some other asinine number.
At a certain point, the airline would say "Screw it" and 50-70 waiting for a crew for their plane get inconvenienced. Then there would be a domino effect. Flight delays would sky rocket.
I will notice they never reached the top end in their offers. They stopped with vouchers and never offered cash.
Incidentally, you think a group of random, unrelated people would hold together as a cartel and not one would jump at $1000 cash to wait one more day? That they'd be able to bid it up to $1M?
That's insane. The airline didn't try all that hard to find volunteers because they thought they could use force. Turns out that's a bad idea.
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No they wouldn't say screw it and just let the other plane be late.
Those late flights go on a list and if the list gets to big .gov sticks their nose in and hand out.
I do think this poorly handled incident might just get a new list started so the congress can look like it's doing something
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There's a top end on the offers (400% of ticket price to a cap of $1350) for a reason. Simply because otherwise passengers would hold out until it hits a million or more.
That's the max they can be required to pay for an involuntary bump. AFAICT, they can offer whatever they want to get someone to volunteer.
As has been noted elsewhere, it actually encourages involuntary bumping, since some ticket prices are up in the range where nobody in their right mind would volunteer for less than that. (Last minute first class bookings, etc.)
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If it ever happens to me, I would also ask about a guaranteed rescheduled ticket rather than standby, but who knows what would actually be offered.
It could be that every single other passenger had some place to be the next day and couldn't afford a delay. Or they knew the $800 credit offer was BS or the standby ticket would have them waiting 2 days for a flight. Either way, all the other passengers didn't want to take the offer and were hoping someone else would get the involuntary bump. Bad luck on United, they picked one of the people who was stubborn enough to argue with police.
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You argue all day about what the airline and police have a legal right to do, but at some point, you have to think about public image and what you should do. Sometimes there is no good option.
I heard a comment yesterday that there is similar outrage over the event on Asian social media in Vietnam and other places. The comment was that Asian flight routes are coveted and profitable and this could mess with United's bottom line in the end. I have no idea if that is true, but could be an issue.
What I haven't heard for certain was if there was no other way to get those employees to the other location or if this was just the normal, least expensive way? Probably only someone from United could answer that.
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What I haven't heard for certain was if there was no other way to get those employees to the other location or if this was just the normal, least expensive way?
Both FedEx and UPS offer overnight service between Chicago and Louisville. If unconscious and crated doesn't count as rest time for flight crew, then it's past time to rewrite the rules.
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Both FedEx and UPS offer overnight service between Chicago and Louisville. If unconscious and crated doesn't count as rest time for flight crew, then it's past time to rewrite the rules.
:lol:
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So I've been reading a couple of different opinions lately that have made some interesting points.
I think we've established that the flight was not actually overbooked/oversold. There was a seat for every passenger that checked in, the problem arose when they had to move these 4 crew members to Louisville.
This is important, because one of the allegations is that, based on that information, United violated their own Contract of Carriage. Specifically, rules 21 and 25.
One of the semantic issues is that apparently the term "boarding" is not defined in their CoC. So what is the definition of boarding? I would argue that once you're past the door of the aircraft, you're "boarded".
Having made that argument, UAL's options in the CoC decrease significantly. Because they're no longer denying someone boarding (which, even if they were, they can deny boarding for an oversold flight, but there appears to be no provision in their CoC for denying boarding for moving employees around).
So now we look at their rule for Refusal of Transport (rule 21). Basically, the list of reasons they can boot you off the plane.
https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21 (source)
I think there's only one condition that UAL may try to use, and that's:
C. Force Majeure and Other Unforeseeable Conditions – Whenever such action is necessary or advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond UA’s control including, but not limited to, acts of God, force majeure, strikes, civil commotions, embargoes, wars, hostilities, terrorist activities, or disturbances, whether actual, threatened, or reported.
I think that if UAL is going to try to claim that their crew schedule issue fits into Force Majeure, I think they're going to see this s***-storm reignite big time.
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I'm seeing conflicting info on it, but it appears that might be kiboshed by gov regs on what the maximum is, and/or how it is offered. I agree that the above is probably the most efficient way to do it when considering the big picture, but it sounds like gov would have to get out of the way first.
I thought we had already clarified that $1350 is the minimum an airline is required to pay a passenger who is involuntarily bumped. I don't think that number is any kind of limit on what the airline can voluntarily pay in order to induce passengers to volunteer to be bumped.
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So I'm flying United today, at check in they asked if I wanted to volunteer to bumped if needed for a minimum of $150.
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Hold out for more.
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Hold out for more.
I will on my return trip
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Delayed, stuck in Denver for a while, dining on United tonight
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So I'm flying United today, at check in they asked if I wanted to volunteer to bumped if needed for a minimum of $150.
Cash or UA vouchers?
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Cash or UA vouchers?
Never seen them give cash for food when delayed. Only vouchers. And usually not enough to cover a full bill given the inflated prices in the concourse.
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Cash or UA vouchers?
Vouchers
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Staying the night in San Francisco. Got $30 voucher for breakfast and a free motel room.
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Staying the night in San Francisco. Got $30 voucher for breakfast and a free motel room.
[Vincent Vega] Did you just order a thirty dolla' breakfas'?
[Mia Wallace] Um-hm.
[VV] That's a breakfas' - that's bacon 'n' eggs?
[MW] Last I heard.
[VV] That's thirty dolla's?
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So I'm flying United today, at check in they asked if I wanted to volunteer to bumped if needed for a minimum of $150.
Add another 1 and two zeros in there, and you have yourself a deal!
How much did you get?
115,000!
Uhm... your voucher is for Vietnamese Dong....
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Uhm... your voucher is for Vietnamese Dong....
That's some dirty money
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Just the tip.
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Arrived, had plenty enough voucher for breakfast, coffee and a bag full of snacks.
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[Vincent Vega] Did you just order a thirty dolla' breakfas'?
[Mia Wallace] Um-hm.
[VV] That's a breakfas' - that's bacon 'n' eggs?
[MW] Last I heard.
[VV] That's thirty dolla's?
It's San Francisco, where a slice of toast is $4: http://www.bonappetit.com/restaurants-travel/article/how-to-make-perfect-toast
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It's San Francisco, where a slice of toast is $4: http://www.bonappetit.com/restaurants-travel/article/how-to-make-perfect-toast
Good bread I can understand (a little), but even regular grocery store bread tastes good toasted with plenty of butter melted in. Shouldn't the butter on the bread in that picture actually be a little melted? It looks like they buttered a cold piece of toast.
Maybe that is what United Airlines can do. Serve the passengers crappy hipster toast to make up for occasionally dragging them off the plane. =D
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Well I see my connecting flight home is 45 minutes apart, looks like I may be staying in Denver Thursday night.
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Well I see my connecting flight home is 45 minutes apart, looks like I may be staying in Denver Thursday night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo0MIUrrNpc
I've done Denver getting there just as the boarding announcement hit for my connection. My checked bag didn't make it, but I did. You will too, especially if it's the same airline. Unless your connection is to podunk, there should also be some later flights. Denver is a pretty decent hub.
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-united-chicago-aviation-police-met-20170413-story.html
http://chicago.suntimes.com/opinion/put-all-airport-security-in-hands-of-chicago-police/
I was browsing Massad Ayoob's blog and came across these links in the comments on the United incident. Interesting info on who the Chicago aviation cops are and what official authority they have.
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2017/04/15/what-might-have-spared-the-tao-of-dr-dao/
Here is the blog post where I found it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lo0MIUrrNpc
I've done Denver getting there just as the boarding announcement hit for my connection. My checked bag didn't make it, but I did. You will too, especially if it's the same airline. Unless your connection is to podunk, there should also be some later flights. Denver is a pretty decent hub.
Flying to Des Moines, last flight of the night, I'll be staying the night.
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Flying to Des Moines, last flight of the night, I'll be staying the night.
Only if your flight is late. In 45 minutes you should be able to do three laps around DEN on the train with a beer break in between.
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-united-chicago-aviation-police-met-20170413-story.html
http://chicago.suntimes.com/opinion/put-all-airport-security-in-hands-of-chicago-police/
I was browsing Massad Ayoob's blog and came across these links in the comments on the United incident. Interesting info on who the Chicago aviation cops are and what official authority they have.
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2017/04/15/what-might-have-spared-the-tao-of-dr-dao/
Here is the blog post where I found it.
Yep, there's a big kerfuffle here about the Aviation Police as the Chicago is desperately trying to find something/someway to CYA in the upcoming lawsuit. Along with trying to prevent being sued in the future. In the meantime. Achmed and Mohammed are busy taking notes as to how this will create gaps and holes in airport security. Nice job Dr. Special Snowflake *expletive deleted*bag Dao.
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http://ijr.com/2017/04/857826-delta-slammed-kicking-passenger-off-plane-using-bathroom-theres-story/
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http://ijr.com/2017/04/857826-delta-slammed-kicking-passenger-off-plane-using-bathroom-theres-story/
From the link:
In her open letter, Krista Rosolino sided with the artist and DJ:
“Delta, what was Nice Gentleman supposed to do? Here are the options as I see it: 1) Urinate in his seat. This would be unpleasant for him, everyone around him, and the airline staff member who has to clean it up. 2) Urinate in a vomit bag or some type of device he could have possibly found. Again, same issue with being uncomfortable for him, those around him, and anyone cleaning up later. 3) Do what he did—wait as long as humanly (remember, we are humans?) possible, and then go to the bathroom as quickly as possible.”
Well Ma'am, there is a fourth option. He could be a mother*expletive deleted*ing adult and take a leak in the terminal before boarding. I guarantee that if he had been to the gate on time he had time to nip away from the line, tinkle, and still board before the doors closed.
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From the link:
Well Ma'am, there is a fourth option. He could be a mother*expletive deleted*ing adult and take a leak in the terminal before boarding. I guarantee that if he had been to the gate on time he had time to nip away from the line, tinkle, and still board before the doors closed.
Not everyone has healthy kidneys and a bladder. Perhaps at the time he was waiting to board, he didn't need to go.
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I'm kind of surprised by all the "good little puppet" responses this thread has brought forth.
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Not everyone has healthy kidneys and a bladder. Perhaps at the time he was waiting to board, he didn't need to go.
While that's true for many people, I'd say if it were the case for this guy I'd assume he'd lead with that. And maybe have mentioned it to Delta.
I'm kind of surprised by all the "good little puppet" responses this thread has brought forth.
I am as fed up and annoyed by Air Travel's security theater as the next guy, and more than many. I fly quite a bit, and HATE that I have to waste as much of my life on useless idiotic dictates as I do. That said, the good little scared citizens voted for this crap and deciding to be all special and playing the "federal law doesn't apply to me!!" card once you are on the airplane is the wrong answer, and makes it worse for the rest of us.
For that matter, the "Don't let people walk around and go into the bathroom during taxi, takeoff, and landing rule that the dude in Atlanta blew off is one of the few rules that is actually logical and useful from a safety and security standpoint.
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The FAs are instructed to tell people to sit down whenever the seatbelt sign is on. The problem is that some FAs and some pilots have an authority complex. In this case, returning to the gate was stupid.
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If you want to go deeper down that rabbit hole...
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/26/travel/bunny-death-united-trnd/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/26/travel/bunny-death-united-trnd/)
:'(
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http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2017/04/15/what-might-have-spared-the-tao-of-dr-dao/
Here is the blog post where I found it.
He would be right, if they were offering cash.
Everything I read suggested they were offering vouchers, which is totally not the same thing.
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/26/travel/bunny-death-united-trnd/ (http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/26/travel/bunny-death-united-trnd/)
:'(
Don't ship live animals in airline cargo.
He would be right, if they were offering cash.
Everything I read suggested they were offering vouchers, which is totally not the same thing.
Correct. Travel vouchers that are good for future flights, but they expire after one to two years.
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Correct. Travel vouchers that are good for future flights, but they expire after one to two years.
Which renders them valueless for a very large percentage of the traveling populace. Which is part of the reason the airlines use vouchers rather than cash. A cash payment of $800 involves $800. I don't know what a major airline's profit margin is, but an $800 voucher, if redeemed, only costs the airline the net cost of flying that seat, so something less than $800. And then they factor in that 'X' percentage of the recipients won't redeem the voucher at all, and that's a win for the airline.
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Back to the "pee guy," there is a reasonable expectation that the plane will get off the ground in a reasonable amount of time, and if it doesn't, there are working bathrooms on board. I seriously doubt this guy held his pee until he got on the plane on purpose.
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The FAs are instructed to tell people to sit down whenever the seatbelt sign is on. The problem is that some FAs and some pilots have an authority complex. In this case, returning to the gate was stupid.
Agreed. If he was going to sit on the throne for 20 minutes, that might be an issue, but a quick trip to empty the bladder should not have been a problem. More than likely, everyone would know when the plane started moving again to set up for take off.
Are there rules saying the plane can't take off if a passenger is in the bathroom?
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.
Are there rules saying the plane can't take off if a passenger is in the bathroom?
Yes. Black and white.
The rules are more grey for taxiing with a passenger standing.
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How many flights are taken without incidents? If this was really an issue you hear about it non stop in the media since airline service is a easy target.
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Munoz is back in the news, busily at work trying to lock the barn door after the horse has been stolen:
http://nypost.com/2017/05/02/united-ceo-vows-to-stop-asking-seated-customers-to-leave-flights/
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Munoz is back in the news, busily at work trying to lock the barn door after the horse has been stolen:
http://nypost.com/2017/05/02/united-ceo-vows-to-stop-asking-seated-customers-to-leave-flights/
He may be using weasel words so he might mean what I'm saying, but "asking" people to get off the flight wasn't the problem.
Not a single person in this country (note: HYPERBOLE) had a problem with asking people to get off the flight.
It was the ordering people to get off the flight under threat of force and then (what made this a massive black eye for his company) use of force.
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He may be using weasel words so he might mean what I'm saying, but "asking" people to get off the flight wasn't the problem.
Not a single person in this country (note: HYPERBOLE) had a problem with asking people to get off the flight.
It was the ordering people to get off the flight under threat of force and then (what made this a massive black eye for his company) use of force.
And THEN they killed the Easter Bunny!
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He may be using weasel words so he might mean what I'm saying, but "asking" people to get off the flight wasn't the problem.
"From now on, we'll be taking Paul Blart and his rejected-Napoleon-Dynamite-extra buddy in right from the start so they know we ain't asking."
"And if Kenny G doesn't scare 'em out, we've got Yanni on retainer."
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http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/05/08/united-airlines-flies-woman-to-san-francisco-instead-france.html
According to Bahetoukilae, who speaks only French and allowed her niece to speak on her behalf, the airline changed the flight’s gate at the last minute, and failed to notify the passengers via email. Furthermore, Bahetoukilae claims the airline did not announce the gate change in French, despite the original flight being bound for Paris.
Hmmm...ya think maybe anything affecting an international flight should at least be communicated in the language of both the origin and destination countries?
Just imagine the fun if she'd ended up on the wrong international flight and found out as she got to the airport of a less-than-friendly country.
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http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2017/05/08/united-airlines-flies-woman-to-san-francisco-instead-france.html
Hmmm...ya think maybe anything affecting an international flight should at least be communicated in the language of both the origin and destination countries?
Just imagine the fun if she'd ended up on the wrong international flight and found out as she got to the airport of a less-than-friendly country.
UA may not have announced the flight in French, but the departure information is easy to read even for a French speaker.
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Don't they check the tickets at the gate as you board the plane?
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Don't they check the tickets at the gate as you board the plane?
Yes, at least they should. I think every airline uses a bar code scanner these days, so I don't know how this was missed.
I don't know about UAL, but my airline announces the flight number and destination several times during the boarding process. Even on the cheap airport PA, "San Francisco sounds nothing like Paris, France."
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They usually do a "last call" even after everyone is boarded. I would have sympathy for a truly deaf/hard-of-hearing person, but otherwise, the airlines can only idiot-proof things so much.
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The idiots keep lowering the bar.
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I've flown into and out of JFK in New York numerous times. It never ceases to amaze me that airports all over the world make announcements in the native language, plus (usually) French, German, Spanish, and often one or two others depending on the part of the world. But JFK, one of the busiest international airports in the world and the eastern gateway to the U.S.? Announcements are only in "English" -- and I put that in quotation marks because the announcements are usually read by a female with such a heavy Jamaican accent that it's barely recognizable as English to a native speaker, and I'm sure is virtually incomprehensible to someone for whom English is a second (or third, or fourth) language.
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Yes, at least they should. I think every airline uses a bar code scanner these days, so I don't know how this was missed.
I don't know about UAL, but my airline announces the flight number and destination several times during the boarding process. Even on the cheap airport PA, "San Francisco sounds nothing like Paris, France."
I was wondering about that. I recall the destination clearly shown on the gate last time I flew. If the plane went to Paris, Texas, I could understand a bit better but I don't think they have a major airport.
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I've flown into and out of JFK in New York numerous times. It never ceases to amaze me that airports all over the world make announcements in the native language, plus (usually) French, German, Spanish, and often one or two others depending on the part of the world. But JFK, one of the busiest international airports in the world and the eastern gateway to the U.S.? Announcements are only in "English" -- and I put that in quotation marks because the announcements are usually read by a female with such a heavy Jamaican accent that it's barely recognizable as English to a native speaker, and I'm sure is virtually incomprehensible to someone for whom English is a second (or third, or fourth) language.
I agree that this is a problem. People in roles like airport announcers should be evaluated and tested on their ability to speak standard, intelligible English. By world standards, it is very unprofessional how little people care about this in the US. Problems causing this include not caring about anyone besides Americans, and no official designated dialect, which would probably be racist or something.
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I agree that this is a problem. People in roles like airport announcers should be evaluated and tested on their ability to speak standard, intelligible English. By world standards, it is very unprofessional how little people care about this in the US. Problems causing this include not caring about anyone besides Americans, and no official designated dialect, which would probably be racist or something.
Pointing out that someone in a role that should require good communication abilities is uninteligable because of a thick accent can be actionable under EEOC policies, or so I've been told.
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(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18221944_1558033984227349_5090403352299410734_n.jpg?oh=c962e4acaf2b1c98f29d2c2eb26e9f85&oe=59C201BA)
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Pointing out that someone in a role that should require good communication abilities is uninteligable because of a thick accent can be actionable under EEOC policies, or so I've been told.
How about just pointing out that the person is unintelligible because nobody can understand him/her?
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http://www.kctv5.com/story/35386267/kansas-city-mom-humiliated-shamed-after-forced-to-pee-in-cup-on-united-flight-she-says
Now you have one girl, two cups.....Supposedly "forced" to pee in cups because....
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At this point I'm starting to suspect people making *expletive deleted*it up to get their 15 min of fame. I flat don't believe that in 2017, if a lady squatted and peed in an airline seat there wouldn't be videos of it.
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At this point I'm starting to suspect people making *expletive deleted*it up to get their 15 min of fame. I flat don't believe that in 2017, if a lady squatted and peed in an airline seat there wouldn't be videos of it.
I just now saw a clip of the two guys fighting on Southwest and wouldn't doubt "setup" for a minute. Also just saw a clip of some guy taking a video of his altercation with an airline employee over an oversize charge for his bag. The bag was as big as a house.
I have no doubt the majority of incidents now are either setups or people taking advantage in hopes of some increased reward, ever since congress got involved. Thanks congress.
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I don't know about UAL, but my airline announces the flight number and destination several times during the boarding process. Even on the cheap airport PA, "San Francisco sounds nothing like Paris, France."
Americans recognize "San Francisco" as a place name, but to someone who doesn't speak English (or Spanish) or have any knowledge of US geography, it may just be another collection of sounds that don't mean anything in particular. For all they'd know, it could mean "this is a non smoking flight." Just because she's from France doesn't mean she's not the French equivalent of a backwoods Arkansas hillbilly. (And frankly, not knowing at least basic conversational English makes me suspect she is.)
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Just because she's from France doesn't mean she's not the French equivalent of a backwoods Arkansas hillbilly. (And frankly, not knowing at least basic conversational English makes me suspect she is.)
You're forgetting that she's from France. Most French people, especially from around Paris, hate English. (And any other language that's not French.)
The exception is the Normandy region. There, they still remember and appreciate the fact that Americans liberated them from German occupation. Back in 1994 my then girlfriend and I went on an adult education tour of Normandy, just before the official fifty year anniversary of D-Day. At that point I hadn't spoken French since my freshman year in College, so thirty years or so -- and I wasn't exactly a stellar student of languages anyway. But ... my girlfriend didn't speak any French at all, so I became our translator. Nonetheless, anywhere we went in Normandy, the people were very polite and understanding, and genuinely seemed to appreciate that I was at least making an effort to speak their language.
At the end of the tour the group made an obligatory stop in Paris, where it was a VERY different story. In Paris, if you don't speak perfect, fluent French, most of them are either incredibly rude, or they ignore you completely.
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Americans recognize "San Francisco" as a place name, but to someone who doesn't speak English (or Spanish) or have any knowledge of US geography, it may just be another collection of sounds that don't mean anything in particular. For all they'd know, it could mean "this is a non smoking flight." Just because she's from France doesn't mean she's not the French equivalent of a backwoods Arkansas hillbilly. (And frankly, not knowing at least basic conversational English makes me suspect she is.)
I have flown all over the world, to many airports (and train stations!) that don't make announcements in English. Despite the advantage that understanding english gets me, I understood my responsibility to figure out enough local* to make sure I got on the right bus/train/plane. That's just a fact of international travel. They make phrase books and translation apps. Use them. Don't expect other countries to conform to your needs.
*That includes Swahili, Portugese, and Khmer. So not just easy languages.
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I have flown all over the world, to many airports (and train stations!) that don't make announcements in English. Despite the advantage that understanding english gets me, I understood my responsibility to figure out enough local* to make sure I got on the right bus/train/plane. That's just a fact of international travel. They make phrase books and translation apps. Use them. Don't expect other countries to conform to your needs.
*That includes Swahili, Portugese, and Khmer. So not just easy languages.
This is a case where the passenger was in the wrong for not being able to understand the instructions, but the airline was even more in the wrong for allowing her to board the wrong flight.
At least two employees were in a position to recognize the error and just mechanically went about their jobs. The airline is rightfully blamed in this case.
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You're forgetting that she's from France. Most French people, especially from around Paris, hate English. (And any other language that's not French.)
Hate, yes, but at least the ones who work in any sort of business popular with tourists know enough to get their money.
Don't expect other countries to conform to your needs.
In the grocery store or the Taco Bell, sure, but in a business that caters largely to international tourists, it's reasonable to expect that there will be employees available who speak at least the most common languages well enough to communicate effectively with a substantial number of their customers.
Even in this small town, when I worked at a motel I kept a stack of phrasebooks for German, French, Japanese, etc. (for Spanish I could always just call housekeeping) because there will often be something that needs to be communicated that just isn't in the "English in 30 minutes" audio course. One local business even distributes lists to all their employees of the extensions of their best French, Japanese, Mandarin, German and Portuguese speakers, specifically because they deal with people who might have the equivalent English skill of an American who took a semester of foreign language in high school; enough to get through pleasantries and thoroughly misunderstand anything more complex.
And frankly, Ms Bahetoukilae appears to have been taking what may well have been a once in a lifetime trip to the US to visit her niece, who would then have escorted her to essentially everything. Therefore she effectively provided her own translator where practical rather than expecting people on the street to accommodate her, but obviously couldn't do so past the security checkpoints at the international airport.
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I have flown all over the world, to many airports (and train stations!) that don't make announcements in English. Despite the advantage that understanding english gets me, I understood my responsibility to figure out enough local* to make sure I got on the right bus/train/plane. That's just a fact of international travel. They make phrase books and translation apps. Use them. Don't expect other countries to conform to your needs.
Agreed.
Had an amusing incident along those lines a number of years ago. I was traveling to a destination in Russia, through Moscow. The arrival airport was Sheremetyovo 2, the international terminal. There, they announce flights in Russian, English, and several other languages. The continuing flight was from the old terminal, Sheremetyovo 1, which only handles domestic, in-country flights. And all announcements are in Russian -- only. My flight was delayed due to blizzard conditions both in Moscow and in Rostov-on-Don, my final destination.
After waiting several hours, I was getting concerned that I had no idea what was happening. I pulled out my trusty Russian phrase book, spent about fifteen minutes rehearsing one sentence, and finally turned to the man sitting next to me to ask him "What's going on?" And he turned to me and replied, very apologetically, "I'm sorry, I don't speak Russian."
It turned out he was French, but he lived and worked in New York, spoke English fluently, and had an American girlfriend. He was going to Rostov-on-Don for business, and he was traveling with an associate who was Russian and who spoke French but not English. So he flagged his colleague, and we had a nice 3-way conversation about what was happening. We all got to Rostov-on-Don -- eventually.
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Update...
Two Chicago Aviation officers fired, two suspended.
http://www.everythinglubbock.com/news/national/officers-fired-after-removal-of-united-passenger/838478368
Brad
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Update: Two of the four "aviation security" officers (who were, in fact, police officers) have been fired, and the other two received five-day suspensions.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/airport-police-sacked-over-passenger-11360563
Apparently United Airlines has decided not to involve police in such situations in the future. If they stick to this, how DO they plan to remove passengers they decide to bump after having allowed them to board?
[Edit]Brad beat me to it.
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This didn't need it's own thread. (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-american-airlines-luggage-dispute-lawsuit-20180812-story.html)
Just another indication of how bad things are.
I get that the ramp worker was doing her job, maybe. I don't know all the rules but I assume she can't let a passenger have access to their luggage after a hand-off like that. It sure seems like the sort of rule that would exist.
However the massive overreaction by the cops, the overcharging and the lying about what happened in court no less is the problem. Compounded by AA's horrible behavior towards the person.
These behaviors need to be punished in some way. I hope this widow wins hr case. And it would be great if the ramp worker gets jail time for her part in this debacle.
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What a bunch of BS. A gate-checked bag has already been security screened. At the end of the flight, the bag is given back to the passenger as he steps off the plane.
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Agreed. The airline employee should be fired and then convicted of perjury and making false statements to police. They should have arrested the person before they left the court.
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I made the mistake of flying American when I went to the SHOT Show in January of 2017. The trip to Las Vegas was such a cluster ___ that I didn't arrive until 24 hours after I should have ... causing me to miss range day. On the flight home it wasn't much better, although I did at least arrive on the same day I was supposed to.
This year I flew Delta and it was a lot better, although the seats were still far too small.
I don't understand how people fly these days. There was a time when I enjoyed flying, even when I was flying for business. If I go to the SHOT Show next year, I may decide to rent an econo-car and drive.