Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on April 29, 2017, 12:11:10 AM
-
I was tooling around the Death Valley area the last couple of days. I never knew this existed. Father Crowley Vista Point, AKA Star Wars Canyon. Used by military aircraft to do the "womp rat manuever".
I discovered it by having an F-18 fly about 300 feet over my head as I was on the road directly at their entry point to the canyon. Nearly drove myself off a cliff. :laugh:
I got to the observation area just in time to see two more do it before I pulled out my camera (had my Nikon D300 with a fast motor drive and an 18-200 zoom) but of course after an hour of waiting, nothing more for the day. Guys apparently just hang out there all day almost every day to catch photos and video. I looked it up just now and here's a few examples that as cool as they are, do not at all do justice to being there and watching these guys pass underneath you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hszQcP2FEAo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCebwpgkZzo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vXktvOmEE0
One from the cockpit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_I4SUNeg7s
-
There's a similar setup somewhere in GB. Same kinds of turns, except it's more wooded and they come out over a lake.
Found it: Wales. They call it the Mach Loop.
https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4
Cockpit view, takeoff to landing.
https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4 < wrong link
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M
-
There's a similar setup somewhere in GB. Same kinds of turns, except it's more wooded and they come out over a lake.
Found it: Wales. They call it the Mach Loop.
https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4
Cockpit view, takeoff to landing.
https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4
The Dassault was cool :cool:
-
Cockpit link was wrong:
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M
Question: "Overbanking" at ~2:00
Is that just for reconnaissance of the ground? Or is there an aeronautic purpose for it?
Oh, wow. Even more dramatic vids from the ground. Looks like some of those intakes are going to swallow you whole:
https://youtu.be/JultKcPcKjk
<gulp>
Not trying to "top" you, Ben, some just came up from the video add-ons.
Jeeze, no wonder you guys like to fly.
-
"Stay on target.... Stay on target!"
-
Question: "Overbanking" at ~2:00
My guess, from my expert experience with video games, is that he's setting himself up for a firing solution on his wingmate. Without, of course, the bullets.
-
Cockpit link was wrong:
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M
Question: "Overbanking" at ~2:00
Is that just for reconnaissance of the ground? Or is there an aeronautic purpose for it?
Turning to stay on course and descending. The steep bank allows him to maintain positive G during the turn and gives the pilot better visability of what is ahead.
-
I thought it was all about shooting the other chap down before he shoots you down.
-
I thought it was all about shooting the other chap down before he shoots you down.
Mach Loop is a low altitude training run. They might do mock ground attacks,but no dog fighting at low altitude.
-
Mach Loop is a low altitude training run. They might do mock ground attacks,but no dog fighting at low altitude.
Yeah, the Hard Deck for those hops is 10,000'. Dip below it, even for a few seconds, and you break a major rule of engagement. Viper will throw you right out.
-
Turning to stay on course and descending. The steep bank allows him to maintain positive G during the turn and gives the pilot better visability of what is ahead.
I was gonna say it's a fancy brit expression for flying upside down, but that makes better sense... :D
-
Mach Loop is a low altitude training run. They might do mock ground attacks,but no dog fighting at low altitude.
Yeah, they don't use the Mach Loop for dog-fighting. They use the OODA Loop.
-
Yeah, the Hard Deck for those hops is 10,000'. Dip below it, even for a few seconds, and you break a major rule of engagement. Viper will throw you right out.
"Hard deck my ass."
[edited to add quote marks and assure I spelled deck correctly.] :)
-
Yeah, they don't use the Mach Loop for dog-fighting. They use the OODA Loop.
And for aerobatic training, the loop-the-loop.
-
There's a similar setup somewhere in GB. Same kinds of turns, except it's more wooded and they come out over a lake.
Found it: Wales. They call it the Mach Loop.
https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4
Cockpit view, takeoff to landing.
https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4 < wrong link
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M
Nit pick--the Lake District is in England.
-
Nit pick--the Lake District is in England.
Perhaps Terry is a Welsh ultra-nationalist.
-
Perhaps Terry is a Welsh ultra-nationalist.
They said Wales somewhere in the captions. Maybe the fighter group was from Wales or something and I misunderstood.
I still don't get the positive gees and the lining up for an attack in the overbank. I'll have to noodle that one out.
And I've got a couple of questions about losing altitude in a 90° bank, let alone an overbank.
Terry, groundlubber
-
"Stay on target.... Stay on target!"
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2833/33505808824_e39399fc53_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/T3N2D3) (https://flic.kr/p/T3N2D3) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/19769480@N08/)
-
There's a similar setup somewhere in GB. Same kinds of turns, except it's more wooded and they come out over a lake.
Found it: Wales. They call it the Mach Loop.
https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4
Cockpit view, takeoff to landing.
https://youtu.be/3-7zHlOi4T4 < wrong link
https://youtu.be/kT7qrYi8R_M
Have been there a few times (its in and around Snowdonia, the planes usually fly out of / to RAF Valley on Anglesey and so is plumb in unoccupied Britain). As great as it is watching fighters do it, watching a C-130 do it is far better. And louder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NEmy5CFpgA
-
^ Wow.
I still don't understand how the planes maintain altitude during a steep bank, since the vertical lift component must vary with the cosine of the bank angle. Forty five degree bank angle, vertical lift component goes to only 71%. At a 90° bank, vertical lift is zero, as in this well-known incident:
https://youtu.be/182AepOJjMs
Anyhow, apart from using aerodynamic surfaces to point the plane's yaw axis upward so that it's partially flying on the reduced vertical wing lift, and partially hanging on its engines, by giving it left rudder in a steep right bank, I don't see how they maintain altitude.
Either that, or it's just maintaining a ballistic trajectory, and the fall rate is not obvious to a casual observer such as myself.
Flying upside down I can understand, you're just changing the angle of attack so that the lift is still upward despite the wing being upside down. But unless you're doing a half-loop, you've still got to go through a bank again to re-establish right-side-up flight.
Terry, landlubber, '97 Subaru Outback pilot.
-
You're right on all counts.
In those videos, the planes are not maintaining altitude in those over-banking maneuvers. They are descending, but it is difficult to see on the video.
45 degree bank is no big deal. At 60 degrees, level flight is easy enough, but the G-load is 2Gs. Beyond that angle, the vertical lift component drops rapidly. There may have been some ballistic arcing going on, but I think it was just the camera angles that make it hard to tell what is happening.
-
^Wow, again. Thanks. First time I've been right in a week.
Must take a lot of control-surface and throttle jockeying to do that, but I guess if you train for it, it's not that hard.
Thanks.
-
Must take a lot of control-surface and throttle jockeying to do that, but I guess if you train for it, it's not that hard.
Thanks.
No, not really. It is a required maneuver for new pilot training. A student with 5 to 10 hours of training can easily hold level flight in a 60 degree bank. Beyond 60 degrees is considered aerobatic, so most civilians don't train for steeper banks. Nor do we train for nap-of-the-earth flying, which is a bummer. In the airline world, we don't exceed 30 degrees of bank.
Something else to consider in the video with the fighter in a steep bank coming over a hill: staying in the bank, or increasing the bank, will unload the Gs and reduce lift allowing the plane to descend quicker without putting any load on the a/c. Rolling out of the bank will increase the lift which will require more nose down (negative G) force to net the same rate of descent, and it will be slower than staying in the bank. So, he was already in the bank and also needed to descend, so rolling in more bank allows the nose to fall quicker which keeps the plane closer to the ground so the commies won't see him coming.
-
^ Wow.
I still don't understand how the planes maintain altitude during a steep bank, since the vertical lift component must vary with the cosine of the bank angle. Forty five degree bank angle, vertical lift component goes to only 71%. At a 90° bank, vertical lift is zero, as in this well-known incident:
https://youtu.be/182AepOJjMs
Anyhow, apart from using aerodynamic surfaces to point the plane's yaw axis upward so that it's partially flying on the reduced vertical wing lift, and partially hanging on its engines, by giving it left rudder in a steep right bank, I don't see how they maintain altitude.
Either that, or it's just maintaining a ballistic trajectory, and the fall rate is not obvious to a casual observer such as myself.
Flying upside down I can understand, you're just changing the angle of attack so that the lift is still upward despite the wing being upside down. But unless you're doing a half-loop, you've still got to go through a bank again to re-establish right-side-up flight.
Terry, landlubber, '97 Subaru Outback pilot.
I always was of the impression that it was the McDonnell-Douglas principle that started with the F-4 Phantom and continued through the F-14 and F-15. Strap a big enough engine on it (then make it 2!) and even a brick will fly.
-
Fly320 pointed out:
Something else to consider in the video with the fighter in a steep bank coming over a hill: staying in the bank, or increasing the bank, will unload the Gs and reduce lift allowing the plane to descend quicker without putting any load on the a/c.
Yes, now I remember when I lived near Boulder Municipal (don't know what it might be called nowadays) watching the gliders release from the tow plane, and the tow plane would tip over 90° sideways and drop like a rock, with the towline trailing upwards behind it. Takes a while for those memory engrams to percolate up to the surface.
AmbulanceDrive remarked,
I always was of the impression that it was the McDonnell-Douglas principle that started with the F-4 Phantom and continued through the F-14 and F-15. Strap a big enough engine on it (then make it 2!) and even a brick will fly.
LOL!
Yeah, but that's not flying, as in aerodynamically. That's just...
https://youtu.be/jmsTzevG7aQ
...mere rocketry.
-
Fly320 pointed out:
Yes, now I remember when I lived near Boulder Municipal (don't know what it might be called nowadays) watching the gliders release from the tow plane, and the tow plane would tip over 90° sideways and drop like a rock, with the towline trailing upwards behind it. Takes a while for those memory engrams to percolate up to the surface.
AmbulanceDrive remarked,
LOL!
Yeah, but that's not flying, as in aerodynamically. That's just...
https://youtu.be/jmsTzevG7aQ
...mere rocketry.
Yeah, but it's rocketry with style....
https://youtu.be/IsNYvmGrZKc
-
Makes me mis the bad Ol', good Ol' days of the Cold War. Watching A-10's come in from the west over Range 35 at Baumholder and blast the crap out of old derelict armored vehicles. And then riding in Blackhawks flying balls out, doing nap of the earth, below the treetops, with the doors open, and praying that five point restraining really worked.
There really was nothing like looking out the doors and up to see the tops of the trees, while doing 100 knots.
-
Makes me mis the bad Ol', good Ol' days of the Cold War. Watching A-10's come in from the west over Range 35 at Baumholder and blast the crap out of old derelict armored vehicles. And then riding in Blackhawks flying balls out, doing nap of the earth, below the treetops, with the doors open, and praying that five point restraining really worked.
There really was nothing like looking out the doors and up to see the tops of the trees, while doing 100 knots.
The definition of "low" has certainly changed over time - for instance there was a programme on TV over here a few years ago about the Dams Raid, where the presenter illustrated how low some of the planes got in their attacks by pointing to the top of a lamp-post next to him. On the same raid, one plane had to turn back because their bomb got hit by the sea and was torn off. Many of the casualties were caused by flying into electricity pylons and wires - at night, with no visual aids, in a Lancaster and with people shooting at them.
-
Things are different in the training world as opposed to the war world.
-
Things are different in the training world as opposed to the war world.
Things are also a lot different at 800kts rather than 250kts.
-
There really was nothing like looking out the doors and up to see the tops of the trees, while doing 100 knots.
It was unnerving enough looking for lost calves from a J-3 at ~40kts, dipping between the pecan trees with the door open to get a look under the foliage. Found a thistle head stuck to the wingtip after one of those flights.
-
One of the first videos was listed as 4k HD, yet it showed F4s zipping through the canyon. I want to know who's still flying F4s.
The first of the pair had a red tail. Maybe a QF4 and a drone director following.
-
One of the first videos was listed as 4k HD, yet it showed F4s zipping through the canyon. I want to know who's still flying F4s.
The first of the pair had a red tail. Maybe a QF4 and a drone director following.
That's exactly what it is. QF-4's flew until July of 2015.
-
That's exactly what it is. QF-4's flew until July of 2015.
They've stopped the F-4 drone program? Bummer. Around 15 years ago, I got a tour of the control facility for the F-4 drones that flew between Mugu and San Nicholas Island. It was a pretty complex big dark pit. I guess now that you can do the same thing with a laptop and a UAV, they've become obsolete. :)
-
There are, however, a few F4's in private hands.
http://www.collingsfoundation.org/
Based out of KEFD where I worked before coming back to the feeding trough.