Post by: telewinz on March 05, 2005, 09:03:03 AM
Post by: Skunkabilly on March 05, 2005, 09:16:28 AM
Gawd, I love the free market!
Post by: Cool Hand Luke 22:36 on March 05, 2005, 10:42:33 AM
It seems to me that low income American workers are being harmed by this dynamic.
How does making American workers compete with slave labor benefit them?
My immigrant Irish ancestors went through this in the mid 1800's here in the US.
Post by: Silver Bullet on March 05, 2005, 12:03:12 PM
Post by: Oleg Volk on March 05, 2005, 12:27:29 PM
Post by: Lee on March 05, 2005, 12:40:55 PM
Post by: Edmond on March 05, 2005, 01:22:42 PM
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If jobs keep getting shipped overseas there might not be any Americans left with money to buy them, no matter how cheap the products are.
Ditto!
Post by: Monkeyleg on March 05, 2005, 01:59:09 PM
They're ripping off designs from our manufacturers and selling them for far less.
China makes a car that's identical to one produced by Chevrolet. In fact, its design is so spot-on that a Chevrolet door will fit on the car perfectly.
China doesn't float its currency on the world market as other countries do. They still use the old Soviet system of artificially controlling their currency.
The last time I tried to buy a really nice dress shirt and tie at a fairly upscale department store, I had a hard time finding either a shirt or tie that wasn't made in China. I certainly couldn't find one made in the US. I finally settled on countries other than China.
We're already in a trade war with China. From comments made by Chinese generals in the past, they expect someday to be in a shooting war with us.
Post by: Declaration Day on March 05, 2005, 03:12:49 PM
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You're going to have to explain how those $50 Nike sneakers, that are made in Vietnam for 50 cents by workers with no rights at all, benefit the American consumer in general and low income American consumers in particular.
Sure, companies like Nike exploit foreign laborers. However, I bet a fair portion of that $50 covers Nike's advertising costs.
There was a time in this country when factory workers were exploited too. At that time, we were a developing nation. It seems to me that China is now going through that process.
Post by: Derby FALs on March 05, 2005, 04:08:50 PM
Post by: johnster999 on March 05, 2005, 08:01:12 PM
Still, I'd be personally happy to buy a nice $20 US made product rather than a $5 Chinese one if given the choice. I just wish more stores would give me that choice when I'm shopping.
Post by: Paddy on March 06, 2005, 07:16:41 AM
Capitalism as I understand it, does (should) not include the use of child/sweatshop/forced labor using dangerous manufacturing equipment. That is coercion at its worst, and it is morally reprehensible. China is buying all the scrap metal it can get its hands on, and returning it in the form of finished products that sell for less than the scrap cost them. Why? In order to wipe out any manufacturing capability in the U.S. and other modern western powers.
When you support and buy imported goods from China, you are contributing to your own demise IMO.
Post by: Edmond on March 06, 2005, 07:36:50 AM
Post by: telewinz on March 06, 2005, 02:38:19 PM
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does (should) not include the use of child/sweatshop/forced labor using dangerous manufacturing equipment
.If you have SOLID evidence that china uses "slave labor", submit it to the Attorney Generals Office. It is illegal to import items into the US made by slave or convict forced labor. Its been illegal for decades. Please site your source(s), the term "slave labor" is often misused by those with a private agenda.
Post by: Paddy on March 06, 2005, 02:50:29 PM
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But for many people on low incomes "shopping China" is the difference between a decent lifestyle and proverty
If you think spending your money on cheap Chinese crap gives you a 'decent' lifestyle and somehow lifts you from poverty, who am I to argue? Maybe you should be saving or investing that money rather than squandering it on consumer goods. If I were to prove to you that Chinese imports are produced with slave/child/forced labor under substandard conditions would that change your buying habits?
I thought not.
Post by: telewinz on March 07, 2005, 12:13:11 AM
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If I were to prove to you that Chinese imports are produced with slave/child/forced labor under substandard conditions would that change your buying habits?
Yes it would. But prove it to the Attorney General and it would change everyone's buying habits.
Post by: BillBlank on March 07, 2005, 01:54:31 AM
As regards SOLID evidence of human rights abuses, forced labour etc. Well, thanks to the Chinese government having control of the press and a large, nasty security apperatus we have mostly only got anecdotal evidence.
However on the balance of probabilities I'd bet money that a great deal of chinese export goods are manufactured under conditions of coercion and brutality.
A few links for your perusal, the independence/balance of these is quiet obviously anti china but food for thought nonetheless.
http://www.clearharmony.net/articles/200501/24146.html
http://www.buyhard.fsnet.co.uk/forced_labour.htm
http://www.ishr.org/press/pr2004/dec04/041207china.htm
Just google labour camps etc. Can't find the video of conditions inside a tanning factory unfortunately.
Post by: telewinz on March 07, 2005, 12:10:09 PM
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Since 1983 it has been illegal to import goods into the United States made through using slave labor. According to the Laogai Research Foundation China's government publicly guaranteed to stop the export of slave labor products in October 1991.
In 1992, China and the United States signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) in an effort to enable the US access to information it needed to control its import ban on prison labor products. According to this MOU the Chinese government had committed itself to investigating all claims of slave labor.
In 1992, China and the United States signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) in an effort to enable the US access to information it needed to control its import ban on prison labor products. According to this MOU the Chinese government had committed itself to investigating all claims of slave labor.
Post by: Guest on March 08, 2005, 02:30:01 PM
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Capitalism as I understand it, does (should) not include the use of child/sweatshop/forced labor using dangerous manufacturing equipment.
Don't US prisoners manufacture things?
"The Department of Corrections maintains that work in the institution is voluntary; however, each day worked reduces a prisoner's sentence by one day. [16] Therefore, those who refuse to work will serve twice as long a sentence as the convicts who agree to work. In addition, the "Work/Privilege Group" classification process further punishes prisoners who refuse to work."
"The current mission statement of the PIA (Prison Industry Authority) is:
Producing and selling, at a profit, quality goods and services at competitive prices with timely delivery."
"By June of 1994, 13 corporations were operating in California prisons, including a computerized telephone message center for Tower Communications in the California Rehabilitation Center in Norco, green waste recycling for Western Waste Industries in the California Institute for Men in Chino, and electronic component manufacturing for Quality Manufacturing Solutions, Inc. in the Central California Women's Facility in Chowchilla.[26] "
Post by: atek3 on March 13, 2005, 08:32:14 AM
If you want people to buy less from china, tell them to stop producing high quality, low cost goods. Or tell americans to get up off their obese buns, turn off the 60" LCD plasma screen TV's (made in china), get out there and learn, innovate, and produce. And tell politicians to massively downsize the government that taxes the productivity of every American. Americans don't get to rest on their laurels forever, you know?
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One of the United States' biggest problems with China is their thumbing our noses at patents, copyrights and intellectual property rights.
And when america was in it's industrial revolution what did we do? We stole so bad from the french and english. Factory designs, product ideas, books, we copied it all!Perhaps like America, china will embrace IP once it realizes the advantages from stealing foreign ideas, no longer is worth the discouragement of innovation that lax IP promotes.
atek3
Post by: ...has left the building. on March 13, 2005, 11:50:25 AM
Simple fact: If you don't want the Chinese to make money you either-
A- Stop buying their goods.
B- Produce items of equal quality for a lower price
Good luck.
Post by: brimic on March 13, 2005, 07:25:13 PM
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Simple fact: If you don't want the Chinese to make money you either-
A- Stop buying their goods.
B- Produce items of equal quality for a lower price
Good luck..
Pretty much right on the mark.A- Stop buying their goods.
B- Produce items of equal quality for a lower price
Good luck..
We all love capitalism until someone comes along and plays the game better.
Post by: ...has left the building. on March 14, 2005, 08:49:59 AM
Post by: telewinz on March 14, 2005, 01:38:41 PM
Yes they do but most jobs do not involve manufacturing and any interstate trade requires they meet federal guidelines as to minimum wage. Most prisons industries can only sell intra-state.
Post by: Guest on March 16, 2005, 02:56:47 AM
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If they dumped all of those on the world market, the dollar would tank, interest rates would soar, inflation would return to double digits, and the standard of living of every joe shmoe in the US would go down the pooper.
You should probably know that the Chinese currency is directly tied to the U.S Dollar. As the Dollar declines so does the Yuan. This is how China is able to remain competitive despite the falling exchange rate of the dollar.Heres the trick. The further the dollar declines in value the less money that China actually gets for every item they sell here. The single worse thing that could happen to China is to see the dollar get tanked.
A weak dollar (compared to other currencies) is actually quite good for domestic producers. For example lets say that the dollar is very weak against the Brittish Pound. That means that when we ship items to England we can charge less than companies that used English labor i.e. our goods become cheaper in countries with stronger currencies. Conversly goods that we import from stronger markets become more expensive in this country, this allows domestic producers to better compete with their foreign counterparts. With the trade defecit as it is right now a weak dollar = good. That is why we arent taking any real action to increase it's value against the Euro, much to the chagrin of the Europeans.
Post by: J P Corry on March 17, 2005, 06:57:17 AM
Quote from: atek3
if China really wanted to wreck the US all it would have to do is say two words... "Sell Dollars". The Chinese are holding the second largest amount of dollar reserve assets of any foreign country. If they dumped all of those on the world market, the dollar would tank, interest rates would soar, inflation would return to double digits, and the standard of living of every joe shmoe in the US would go down the pooper.
And China would lose it's grip on the US, throwing away it's most significant bargaining chip and 'trade war' weapon.Our economy has weathered worse threats than this one and emerged stronger and wiser for it on the other side.
They don't scare me at all.
Post by: thumbody on March 17, 2005, 07:17:30 AM
The UK and Germany used to be manufacturing countries , They outsouced their manufacturing and now have some of the highest unemployment in the world.
Manufacturing creats wealth (taking a couple of dollars worth of raw materials and creating usable items worth much more. The service economy we are headed towards creats no wealth it only transfers wealth to others.
We buy manufactured goods from asian and other under developed countries where American companies pay slave wages to people who can never dream of buying the things they make. '
Look at Mexico ,The big 3 auto companies build factories there on former farm land that the Mexican Government has thrown the local farmers off of. They then have to work in the factories to feed thier familys. The workers either live in huts on company property or crowd onto flat bed trucks to get to work. They will never buy any of the vehicles they build. Go to a dealer and check the prices on Surburbans They are built in both Mexico and the USA but there is no difference in the price of the 2.
When manufacturing is gone the whole economy suffers look at places like Flint MI. for example the tax base for school and public services is disappearing .
Post by: brimic on March 17, 2005, 08:04:16 AM
Another side effect is that the weak dollar makes it more expensive to take vacations in Europe, giving a relatively better 'bang for the buck' for people to spend their discretionary money on Domestic services and locations.