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Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: grampster on August 23, 2017, 10:19:39 PM

Title: Football players
Post by: grampster on August 23, 2017, 10:19:39 PM
It would seem to me that NFL football players are contract employees of football teams.  The teams operate under rules established by the NFL.  So it follows that there are certain rules that would have to be obeyed by the teams and the players.  To require players to stand helmet in hand during the playing of the National Anthem could be a condition of employment and not having anything to do with stultifying free speech...merely a job requirement in the interest of keeping the majority of NFL fans remain as fans and spend money and to attract advertisers and media participation.

Now if a player chose to break the rule, to exercise his free speech, he could be suspended for the balance of the season without pay as a matter of employer/player conduct and agreement.  Not a civil rights issue at all.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: T.O.M. on August 23, 2017, 11:00:17 PM
To a degree, you're right.  NFL players are under a collective bargaining agreement between the NFLPA (player's association) and the NFL (meaning the owners).  So, agreement could include such a clause if both sides agree to it.

One thing that keeps getting caught up in all of this debate, and a whole lot of "free speech" arguments is that the First Amendment prohibits government restriction of free speech.  A private entity, like the NFL, is not bound by the First Amendment/Bill of Rights.  So, punishing a player for protesting during the Anthem is a contract law issue, not a civil liberties issue.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: RoadKingLarry on August 23, 2017, 11:36:41 PM
Either way, I've decided to continue my multi-decade boycott of professional sporting events.
I honestly don't think I've ever sat and watched a whole game of any pro sport.

Title: Re: Football players
Post by: T.O.M. on August 24, 2017, 06:40:31 AM
I grew up a sports fan.  All sports, pretty much.  At this point, the only pro sport I pay attention to, and will sit and watch is hockey.  The players in other pro sports...NBA, MLB, NFL...have become such prima donnas with no loyalty to their team or their fan base that I just won't waste my time supporting them, knowing that they will cut and run if they can just make more money.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: Fly320s on August 24, 2017, 08:22:54 AM
knowing that they will cut and run if they can just make more money.

I have no problem with that.  The owners do the same thing.  More power to all of them.

Still, I don't watch sports, but that is only because it doesn't interest me.  Occassionally, I will watch a Cowboys game, but I don't follow the team's progress.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: grampster on August 24, 2017, 01:15:01 PM
I live in Michigan.  We have the Lions.  Why would anyone want to be a fan of the Lions?

The thing I've noticed lately is that prominent people, politicians, businesses or sports franchises seem to roll over like whipped dogs to positions that seem to be in opposition with civilized, lawful behavior.

America is a constitutional representative republic.  As such, it can be modified or amended as described in the foundational document.  It has been changed/amended in the past.   If individuals or groups are disorderly and violently in opposition to that form of change, they are not legitimate and should not be supported notwithstanding those groups right to be verbally and peacefully in opposition.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: Scout26 on August 24, 2017, 04:48:19 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inzwAWOXlbg
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: TechMan on August 24, 2017, 05:01:45 PM
Well the Cleveland Browns players have stepped into this quagmire.  12 players took a knee during the national anthem at Monday night's preseason game.  5 other players showed their support by standing near the kneeling players and putting their hands on the kneeling players shoulders. I still have a lot of friends in the Cleveland area and they are hopping mad about this.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: AJ Dual on August 24, 2017, 05:20:43 PM

The thing I've noticed lately is that prominent people, politicians, businesses or sports franchises seem to roll over like whipped dogs to positions that seem to be in opposition with civilized, lawful behavior.

Well, sitting or taking a knee during the Anthem is still "civilized" and 100% "lawful" but I get your drift.

The issue is really one of the blue states, or more appropriately the blue cities being the bulk of the money, the power, and influence in these organizations. It's why something as "red meat" as "sports" can be co-opted by PC Leftist attitudes. Are the billionaire team owners being shunned at cocktail parties in NYC and SF? It's another version of the "Inside the Beltway effect" that erodes the commitment of some conservative politicians.  And while the NFL has a more equitable money distribution structure than say MLB, and things that prevent a team from just throwing money at their roster of players to dominate like the Yankees sometimes do, even if it's shared revenues, the big city coastal teams still rake in the most dough.

Of course the flyover country red-state/red-suburb people definitely vote with their feet and their wallets, but it's a second-order effect, and it takes time. And add to that, those influenced by blue area Leftist Coastal attitudes, they can rationalize away things like TV ratings drops and loss of ticket sales for a time too, before the displeasure of the fans en-masse really starts to make the NFL pull back.

And then of course, there's the whole "ratchet effect" that usually works in the Left's favor, politically, and in the overall culture war too.  

So maybe 2-3 seasons of falling ratings and teams forced to cut or not renew players who engage in Kapernack protests for #BLM because of massive fan displeasure, the teams and the NFL might stop overt displays of protest, but that still doesn't undo the time period they allowed it, and the overall shifting in the "Overton Window" etc.

Title: Re: Football players
Post by: Andiron on August 24, 2017, 06:49:28 PM
Well the Cleveland Browns players have stepped into this quagmire.  12 players took a knee during the national anthem at Monday night's preseason game.  5 other players showed their support by standing near the kneeling players and putting their hands on the kneeling players shoulders. I still have a lot of friends in the Cleveland area and they are hopping mad about this.

Yup.  They done stepped in it.  Curious to see how this one ends.

Title: Re: Football players
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 24, 2017, 09:34:16 PM
Well, sitting or taking a knee during the Anthem is still "civilized" and 100% "lawful" but I get your drift.


How civilized it is may be debated, but it is, in fact, NOT lawful. The United States Flag Code IS federal law -- United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10.

Quote
§171. Conduct during playing
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed there.

Failure to follow the protocol is not a criminal offense, but it is against the law.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: Regolith on August 24, 2017, 09:50:30 PM
How civilized it is may be debated, but it is, in fact, NOT lawful. The United States Flag Code IS federal law -- United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10.

Failure to follow the protocol is not a criminal offense, but it is against the law.

1st Amendment beats USC.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: KD5NRH on August 24, 2017, 09:58:27 PM
Well, sitting or taking a knee during the Anthem is still "civilized" and 100% "lawful"

This is my take on it; as long as they're just sitting or kneeling out of the way and not interfering with anyone else's proper observance of the ceremony, file it under "being a dick," fully punishable in the court of public opinion.

If they talk over the Anthem or a prayer, or otherwise interfere with any other person participating in such, then break out the tar and feathers.  Until then, let the financial consequences of pissing off fans work on the issue.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: K Frame on August 25, 2017, 07:04:27 AM
Anyone hear about the petition that's apparently being circulated by BLM or a similar group demanding that an NFL team sign Kapernick? Because him not having a job because, well, he's just not that good and he comes with a lot of baggage, is the most racist thing ever, apparently.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: TechMan on August 25, 2017, 07:07:49 AM
Anyone hear about the petition that's apparently being circulated by BLM or a similar group demanding that an NFL team sign Kapernick? Because him not having a job because, well, he's just not that good and he comes with a lot of baggage, is the most racist thing ever, apparently.

I saw an article about the protests outside of NFL headquarters, demanding the NFL give Kapernick a job.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: Mannlicher on August 25, 2017, 10:36:48 AM
Pro sports of any flavor is pretty much irreverent in my life these days.  I don't care about, or watch any of it.
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 25, 2017, 11:31:02 PM
Pro sports of any flavor is pretty much irreverent in my life these days.  I don't care about, or watch any of it.

So you have no input on this subject. Thanks for letting us know!
Title: Re: Football players
Post by: Hawkmoon on August 25, 2017, 11:53:33 PM
Pro sports of any flavor is pretty much irreverent in my life these days.  I don't care about, or watch any of it.

Since you're not interested in them, I guess it's not surprising that pro sports don't choose to revere you :)