Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: T.O.M. on November 05, 2017, 03:21:48 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us/texas-church-shooting/index.html
Shooting at a church outside of Texas. Early reports I've seen are 20+ dead, another 30+ injured.
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Shooting at a church outside of [San Antonio,] Texas. Early reports I've seen are 20+ dead, another 30+ injured.
I'm gonna have to start carrying at church again. I quit cuz my LTC expired and I haven't had the time nor inclination to requalify. (I'm an officer in the church, and doubt that I need a permit; it's private property)
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We are out of town, but my wife received a text message from a local news place about this. Between this shooting and the amount of "regular" shootings, we have decided to get the hell out of San Antonio and move back to the country as soon as we can.
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We are out of town, but my wife received a text message from a local news place about this. Between this shooting and the amount of "regular" shootings, we have decided to get the hell out of San Antonio and move back to the country as soon as we can.
Decent home prices near Stephenville if you've got skills that are in demand here.
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Apparently the Democrats are already using this incident to call for more gun control -- without having even identified the shooter, or whether or not the gun or guns he used were obtained legally or not, whether or not he underwent background checks to buy it/them ... in other words, never let a crisis go to waste, and to hell with facts -- just make lots of noise.
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/358868-democrats-renew-calls-for-gun-control-in-wake-of-texas-church-shooting
To me it's more justification to eliminate gun-free zones. Someone in that church should have been armed and prepared to shoot back.
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I'm gonna have to start carrying at church again.
always
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Never let a crisis go to waste. The left has always been nasty about dancing in the blood of the innocent....and their supporters don't seem to be bothered about this.
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https://viral.buzzunites.com/2017/11/05/devin-kelley-5-fast-facts-you-need-to-know/
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Apparently the pastor and his wife were out of town, but their 14 year old daughter was at church and is one of the dead. Man, that's gotta be tough for those parents.
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Shot either by himself or a local "civilian"
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If he actually had a dishonorable discharge from the Air Force, he was a prohibited person.
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That looks to be solid.
The shooting suspect has been identified as 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelley, CBS News has learned from federal law enforcement sources.
Kelley is a former U.S. Air Force member who served from 2010 to 2014. He was dishonorably discharged and court martialed in May 2014, CBS News has learned.
Federal law enforcement sources say the suspect used an AR-15 type rifle, CBS News justice and homeland security correspondent Jeff Pegues reports.
A law enforcement official confirmed that the gunman is deceased. He was shot after a car chase with police, but it's unclear if he shot himself or if he was shot by police, CBS News' senior investigative producer Pat Milton reports.
So what was he doing with this? Unless it's a replica, but that's unlikely considering what he just did.
(https://img.thedailybeast.com/image/upload/d_placeholder_euli9k/dpr_2.0/c_limit,w_585/fl_lossy,q_auto/his-facebook-cover-photo_2_xs9g4s)
We need more laws to ban bad people from getting AR-15s and shooting people at churches, because we can't even enforce existing laws against those things.
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According to the live on scene report given by local LEO just covered on FOX, it was a citizen who shot at the idiot, NOT law enforcement. Cops arrived AFTER he was dead.
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https://crimeresearch.org/2017/11/witness-texas-church-shooting-neighbor-shot-suspect-causing-leave-scene/
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Apparently the Democrats are already using this incident to call for more gun control -- without having even identified the shooter, or whether or not the gun or guns he used were obtained legally or not, whether or not he underwent background checks to buy it/them ... in other words, never let a crisis go to waste, and to hell with facts -- just make lots of noise.
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/358868-democrats-renew-calls-for-gun-control-in-wake-of-texas-church-shooting
To me it's more justification to eliminate gun-free zones. Someone in that church should have been armed and prepared to shoot back.
I thought Churches were no longer prohibited locations unless they were posted. That was changed quite some time back.
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I thought Churches were no longer prohibited locations unless they were posted. That was changed quite some time back.
I didn't say the church was a gun-free zone, although since nobody shot back I guess it was a de facto gun-free zone even if it wasn't posted. In most states, churches are allowed to designate themselves as gun-free, and around here most churches do so. My point was simply that making a place free of guns in the possession of the law-abiding does not in any way ensure the safety of the sheep inside. It just makes the slaughter that much easier. Yet the usual suspects are already clamoring for MORE ["common sense"] gun control, when the simple reality is that what's needed is LESS gun control, and more VIOLENCE control.
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It occurs to me that the leftists are going to be making a LOT of noise about this incident, and pushing loudly and diligently for GUN control, because this is their chance to get the New York Islamist terrorist truck attack out of the news and replace it with something that fits their agenda.
In fact, I was discussing the church shooting with a friend from across town, who happens to be on the security committee for his church, and we both wondered (only half in jest) if this might be a false flag operation.
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Don't have much to say about this other than it really saddens me. Senseless violence for what reason? 26 people confirmed dead. I understand that was a significant % of the church attendance.
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Don't have much to say about this other than it really saddens me. Senseless violence for what reason? 26 people confirmed dead. I understand that was a significant % of the church attendance.
50 people in attendance, was a figure I saw.
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https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/11/05/sheriff-local-resident-with-a-gun-engaged-and-pursued-devin-patrick-kelley/
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First possible hint of a potential link/motive: https://www.thedailybeast.com/devin-patrick-kelley-idd-as-sutherland-springs-church-killer
Kelley, 26, was a resident of New Braunfels, a suburb of San Antonio, according to public records. Kelley was married and his mother-in-law listed a P.O. box in Sutherland Springs as a mailing address. A LinkedIn account appearing to belong to Kelley said he enlisted in the U.S. Air Force in 2009 after graduating from high school.
Kelley was discharged from the Air Force in 2014, according to Defense Department records. Kelley was court-martialed in November 2012 for assaulting his wife and their child. A judge sentenced him with a bad-conduct discharge, 12 months confinement, and two reductions in rank to basic airman, according to an appeals court decision in 2013 that affirmed the decision against Kelley.
Sutherland Springs is a small town. I wonder if his mother-in-law is a member of that church -- or if he thought she was. He was court-martialed for abusing his wife and child. If he's like most abusers, in his mind it was probably all the wife's (and, by extension, the mother-in-law's) fault because, after all, it certainly wasn't his fault. If his wife gave him the boot, he might have gone after the church as a way of getting back at the mother-in-law.
Yes, it's speculation, and a stretch -- but there is a potential link, so stay tuned for any word of motives derived from whatever social media accounts he had.
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https://www.facebook.com/summer.caddell/posts/10155142293886482?pnref=story Several good guys with guns chase the bad guy down and killed him.
From my Airforce JAG Officer, now constitutional law professor friend:
I looked it up on WESTLAW ( a subscription service). He probably was given a DD by the base-levelCourt-Martial Board but the GCM Convening Authority only APPROVED a BCD and 1 year. The USAF is notoriously lenient.
So a DD that was knocked down to a BCD.
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I've seen several indicators that he was a prohibited person DD from AF on domestic abuse charges.
The armed citizen taking him out is getting darn little notice in the MSM.
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Just heard of this. There is an interview with the driver who helped chase him down.
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/11/05/a-good-guy-with-a-gun-stopped-the-texas-church-shooter-now-hear-what-one-of-the-heroes-has-to-say/
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Sounds like it was a neighbor of the church who is the one who fought back, not someone inside the church.
http://deadline.com/2017/11/texas-shooting-death-toll-press-conference-1202202380/
Asked by a reporter whether the shooter had been linked to any known militia groups, Freeman Martin, Regional Director Department of Public Safety, said the matter was “being investigated” but unknown at this time.
Sounds like someone was hoping for a certain spin.
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So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun.
It had to be said.
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So a bad guy with a gun was stopped by a good guy with a gun.
It had to be said.
The Dallas Morning News is ranting about gun control. The bad guy was already prohibited; I guess they didn't want the good guy to have a gun. (it makes a better story if he kills a lot more people)
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If true the BCD wouldn't have made him a prohibited person but the Lautenberg would have.
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https://www.facebook.com/summer.caddell/posts/10155142293886482?pnref=story Several good guys with guns chase the bad guy down and killed him.
From my Airforce JAG Officer, now constitutional law professor friend:
I looked it up on WESTLAW ( a subscription service). He probably was given a DD by the base-levelCourt-Martial Board but the GCM Convening Authority only APPROVED a BCD and 1 year. The USAF is notoriously lenient.
So a DD that was knocked down to a BCD.
Nonetheless, the charge was a domestic violence charge. He was still a prohibited person.
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Watching the news this morning. Both NBC and BLN are just indicating he was chased and stopped by people, not mentioning at all that the guys who intervened were armed. I guess the best spin is to not say it at all...
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More linkage: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5053013/Devin-Kelley-outcast-preached-atheism.html
There was a connection between the shooter and this church:
He was married to Danielle Shields, and they appear to have a child together. She was previously a teacher at the First Baptist Church. [Not clear -- I assume this is the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs]
Kelley lived at his parents’ home with his wife and child and neighbor Mark Moravitz told ABC News he would sometimes hear gunshots coming from near that house late at night.
The gunman's mother-in-law, Michelle Shields, also appears to have been a parishioner at the church and was friends on social media with the pastor's wife.
I don't know if that might point toward a motive, but it begins to appear that he didn't just pick this particular church at random by throwing darts at a map.
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I read one article (don't recall where) saying he had been involved as a teacher, or teacher's aid, at a vacation Bible school. Now the Daily Wire has an article about him being a preachy atheist since high school.
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Multiple articles have mentioned that he was a Bible studies aide, but none were clear as to when that was. I'm reading between the lines to surmise that it was while he was in high school.
If anyone knows definitively whether or not the First Baptist Church of Sutherland Springs is a gun-free zone, I would appreciate being advised. I'm corresponding with my state's concealed carry rights advocacy group's president, and this question has come up. We know that in Texas signs have to meet statutory requirements. The question is whether or not this church had posted 30.06 signs.
I was surprised that, in Texas, apparently there was nobody in the church who was carrying.
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Trump nails it:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/06/trump-says-texas-church-shooting-caused-by-mental-health-problem-not-guns.html
"This isn't a guns situation," he said, before adding, "This is a mental health problem at the highest level. It's a very, very sad event."
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"Fortunately … somebody else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction," Trump said at the press conference.
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Fortunately … somebody else had a gun that was shooting in the opposite direction," Trump said at the press conference.
Heh. That's gonna set some people (Will Wheaton) off.
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That UK sourced article was one of the best I saw here. It would appear that in fact the shooter was put down by a local who heard gun shots and grabbed his rifle. But Kelley did one hell of a lot of damage very quickly. He was wearing body armour and the guy who shot him understood enough to shoot where he was least protected. Wish he would have popped him in the head.
This is the first I have seen as well that there was a link between the shooter and the church.
I think it really sucks that we seem to get the truth from Facebook and not from the regular news.
I still don't know if Kelley was a prohibited person in terms of owning a firearm. I don't understand the military terminology used here and I don't know if a military conviction carries weight in civil court in terms of being prohibited to own a firearm. The fact that Kelley used a CO address at Academy Sports when buying suggests he knew there was a problem with his record and hoped that the system would not catch it. Was he stationed in CO and how recently did he return to TX?
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That UK sourced article was one of the best I saw here. It would appear that in fact the shooter was put down by a local who heard gun shots and grabbed his rifle. But Kelley did one hell of a lot of damage very quickly. He was wearing body armour and the guy who shot him understood enough to shoot where he was least protected. Wish he would have popped him in the head.
The good guy used a rifle. Soft body armor doesn't stop rifle rounds. The fact that the bad guy was hit in a spot not covered by armor is probably because of luck, not skill.
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I still don't know if Kelley was a prohibited person in terms of owning a firearm.
If he was convicted of domestic abuse, he was a prohibited person.
Question 11i on the 4473: "Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?"
Question 11b might count, too: "Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony or any other crime for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?" I'm pretty sure that includes military courts.
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Yeah, I forgot about soft body armour not stopping rifle rounds.
Added: But apparently the NICS check missed the conviction.
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What I've heard is he was given a bad conduct discharge, and that doesn't show up on a NICS check. I suppose this might be wrong ...... I'm not an expert in military law.
The Texas Governor was blathering how he was denied a carry permit, but the Ruger M4orgery purchase was OK'd. As if the two were the same .. ;/.
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If he was convicted of domestic abuse, he was a prohibited person.
Question 11i on the 4473: "Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?"
Question 11b might count, too: "Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony or any other crime for which the judge could imprison you for more than one year?" I'm pretty sure that includes military courts.
Heard about it a couple times in the news this am how he was supposed to be a prohibited person.
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Apparently his initial court martial punishment was reduced from a dishonorable discharge to a bad conduct discharge. Nonetheless, he served a year in the slammer for a crime involving domestic violence. He was legally a prohibited person. Once again, the 20,000 gun control laws we already have on the books failed to stop a determined killer.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5054531/Shooter-targeted-church-ex-s-laws-worshiped.html
It's finally coming out that the wife he abused while in the Air Force divorced him, and he is now married to a second wife. It's the second wife who comes from Sutherland Springs and who was a Sunday School teacher there. Her mother still lives in Sutherland Springs, and is a member of the church.
My guess: the second wife left him and went home to live with her mother, and this was his way to getting revenge. He probably expected to find them in the church.
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What I've heard is he was given a bad conduct discharge, and that doesn't show up on a NICS check. I suppose this might be wrong ...... I'm not an expert in military law.
The Texas Governor was blathering how he was denied a carry permit, but the Ruger M4orgery purchase was OK'd. As if the two were the same .. ;/.
The 4473 only asks if you received a dishonorable discharge, so a bad conduct probably doesn't act as a disqualifier. But the fact that he served a year in military prison for a crime involving domestic violence should be a disqualifier, and that should show up on a NICS. Surprise: Our wonderful system is still broken.
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Right now the MSM is leaning toward "self-inflicted" for the killing wound. I will be really curious as to what the investigation finally shows, because that will really change the narrative one way or the other on the "gun control" narrative. Also I wonder if there could be more than one wound, possibly hit by the citizen, then killed himself later.
I wonder how many people might shoot themselves in the head while driving versus stopping (or crashing) first and then doing so because they figure they have no escape. Not that the shooter was rational, but a rational person, I think, wouldn't consider shooting themselves while they're moving and possibly have a chance for escape. That's usually a, "no place else to go" thing.
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Heard about it a couple times in the news this am how he was supposed to be a prohibited person.
The problem is that the "news" is often false these days. His bad conduct discharge was bad enough for a "dishonorable discharge". That is pretty serious stuff and a scar for life.
Added: So he initially received a dishonorable discharge which was changed.
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The 4473 only asks if you received a dishonorable discharge, so a bad conduct probably doesn't act as a disqualifier. But the fact that he served a year in military prison for a crime involving domestic violence should be a disqualifier, and that should show up on a NICS. Surprise: Our wonderful system is still broken.
Yea, SOMETHING broke, for sure! I'd forgotten the domestic charge when I wrote the early post.
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Apparently his initial court martial punishment was reduced from a dishonorable discharge to a bad conduct discharge. Nonetheless, he served a year in the slammer for a crime involving domestic violence. He was legally a prohibited person. Once again, the 20,000 gun control laws we already have on the books failed to stop a determined killer.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5054531/Shooter-targeted-church-ex-s-laws-worshiped.html
It's finally coming out that the wife he abused while in the Air Force divorced him, and he is now married to a second wife. It's the second wife who comes from Sutherland Springs and who was a Sunday School teacher there. Her mother still lives in Sutherland Springs, and is a member of the church.
My guess: the second wife left him and went home to live with her mother, and this was his way to getting revenge. He probably expected to find them in the church.
Fox News is still saying the motive is unclear. Revenge is a serious motive. I am glad that race was not involved. If it was a predominantly black church, it would be race from a pubic news consumption. They are also saying that Kelley killed himself. That seems a bit strange to me under the circumstance mentioned earlier.
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I was surprised that, in Texas, apparently there was nobody in the church who was carrying.
Check the layout of the sanctuary on their YouTube channel; it's such a tactical nightmare you'd have to be insanely fast and accurate to have much of a chance with a handgun against a rifle coming in from behind you with no cover, little concealment and nowhere to run to.
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Not that it maters how many times he was a prohibited person but;
1 Domestic violence offender.
2. UCMJ Article 128 (assault) 7 (Assault consummated by a battery upon a child under 16 years) [he was convicted of hitting his kid as well]. Maximum punishment: Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
3. 18 USC doesn't say "dishonorable discharge" It says "discharged under dishonorable conditions". Which a Bad Conduct Discharge is.
I suspect we'll soon be hearing about how well (or not) various agencies report to NICS. We already know that state mental health agencies have spotty reporting at best.
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Noting that he was in military confinement for a year, under the UCMJ, is a sentence of 365 days or more considered a felony conviction? Here in Washington, it is not uncommon to see criminal sentencing of a year and a day for felonies, and 364 days for crimes that are gross misdemeanors.
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Age range was 18 months to 77 years old according to the news conference just now. Guess the pregnant woman's child didn't count. Just had to say it.
I was impressed with the news conference today. They kept to the point and ended it when they were ready without a lot of questions.
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Age range was 18 months to 77 years old according to the news conference just now. Guess the pregnant woman's child didn't count. Just had to say it.
Which is interesting since that makes for another capital murder in TX. (any child under 6, including unborn)
Not that it really matters, since it's a little late to convict now.
One station now saying the mother in law had received threatening texts. Too bad nobody followed up, noticed the guy posting gun pics on FB and realized that alone was enough to lock him up for years. The whole thing could have been prevented.
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Check the layout of the sanctuary on their YouTube channel; it's such a tactical nightmare you'd have to be insanely fast and accurate to have much of a chance with a handgun against a rifle coming in from behind you with no cover, little concealment and nowhere to run to.
He walked up the main aisle and then shot his way back out. I don't care how good he was -- in a room with 50 people in it, seated on two sides of a main aisle so you're always flanked, if there had been even two people there with handguns they would have had a chance to stop him.
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This is true IF you are carrying a firearm unless you're one of the first to get executed. I don't carry in church even if I'm allowed to.
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Right now the MSM is leaning toward "self-inflicted" for the killing wound. I will be really curious as to what the investigation finally shows, because that will really change the narrative one way or the other on the "gun control" narrative. Also I wonder if there could be more than one wound, possibly hit by the citizen, then killed himself later.
I wonder how many people might shoot themselves in the head while driving versus stopping (or crashing) first and then doing so because they figure they have no escape. Not that the shooter was rational, but a rational person, I think, wouldn't consider shooting themselves while they're moving and possibly have a chance for escape. That's usually a, "no place else to go" thing.
You can't underestimate the impact of him realizing exactly what it is he has actually done when discussing this bloke shooting himself in the head.
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Interesting crap heard around here...very lib reporter in the hallway of the courthouse. Spouting about how this country has been at war for 15 years, with hundreds of soldiers coming back. IN her words, many of those soldiers probably found that they liked killing, and never lost the taste for it. So, again her words, we should prohibit veterans from owning firearms unless they get an approved psychological evaluation.
[barf]
Oh, and I'm hearing pure speculation, with no known basis, that the "good guy with a gun" executed the shooter in his car. Therefore, no "good guy" with a gun here.
[barf]
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You can't underestimate the impact of him realizing exactly what it is he has actually done when discussing this bloke shooting himself in the head.
True enough. It's always possible that some semblance of sanity and, "What have I done?" may have poked through long enough for him to end himself.
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He walked up the main aisle and then shot his way back out. I don't care how good he was -- in a room with 50 people in it, seated on two sides of a main aisle so you're always flanked, if there had been even two people there with handguns they would have had a chance to stop him.
Haven't seen anything showing his path inside the sanctuary, but it's all visible from the door, and the back of any church pew I've ever sat in would do nothing against rifle rounds; sweeping the room from the doorway would be all that's needed to wipe out the entire room.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fassets.nydailynews.com%2Fpolopoly_fs%2F1.3613157.1509915912%21%2Fimg%2FhttpImage%2Fimage.jpg_gen%2Fderivatives%2Farticle_750%2Farticle-church-11-1105.jpg&hash=65268da57122978c426ba1b7d76b0c7d50c826df)
That's a fairly small room; wading into the middle would only make sense as a mop up tactic after anyone still upright was taken out.
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Interesting crap heard around here...very lib reporter in the hallway of the courthouse. Spouting about how this country has been at war for 15 years, with hundreds of soldiers coming back. IN her words, many of those soldiers probably found that they liked killing, and never lost the taste for it.
Erm...how many USAF enlisted have ever killed anyone in combat?
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This is true IF you are carrying a firearm unless you're one of the first to get executed. I don't carry in church even if I'm allowed to.
I do ...
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Interesting crap heard around here...very lib reporter in the hallway of the courthouse. Spouting about how this country has been at war for 15 years, with hundreds of soldiers coming back. IN her words, many of those soldiers probably found that they liked killing, and never lost the taste for it. So, again her words, we should prohibit veterans from owning firearms unless they get an approved psychological evaluation.
I doubt Air Force supply clerks who never leave CONUS get much opportunity to develop a love for killing.
Oh, and I'm hearing pure speculation, with no known basis, that the "good guy with a gun" executed the shooter in his car. Therefore, no "good guy" with a gun here.
That is a possibility. The driver of the pursuit truck says the neighbor with the rifle didn't fire any shots after the shooter's SUV stopped. And the sheriff's office is saying that the head wound appears to have been self-inflicted.
My guess is that we'll never know. This is rural Texas. If they do find ballistic evidence that it was the "good" Samaritan who killed the shooter, I very much doubt they'll make it public or prosecute. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
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http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/06/texas-church-shooter-passed-background-check-gun/
Saying the guy passed a background check when buying the rifle.
Kelley used an AR-15 style rifle and according to CNN, a law enforcement official indicates “Kelley purchased the Ruger…rifle he used in the shooting from an Academy Sports & Outdoors store in San Antonio.” The observed that Kelley “didn’t have a disqualifying criminal history when he filled out the background check paperwork at the store.”
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"They," notably Wesley Crusher, have once again hauled out the "prayer is stoopid!" thing. I guess we'll have to start responding with a meme about how "having a national conversation about guns" doesn't stop these events, either. Or gun laws. Or celebrity do-something!! videos.
Oh, this one's kind of funny. (Would be really funny, in other circumstances.)
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2017/11/06/pathetic-response-gov-cuomos-prayer-alternative-after-texas-church-shooting-sends-heads-to-desks/
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http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/06/texas-church-shooter-passed-background-check-gun/
Saying the guy passed a background check when buying the rifle.
Except that he had spent a year in military confinement for a domestic violence conviction. He lied on the 4473, and I'm going to guess that the Air Force didn't submit the information to NICS. So ... our wonderful system failed. But let's not fix the system so the existing laws work -- let's just pass more laws that nobody will enforce. THAT ought'a do it, by gosh!
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Oh, and I'm hearing pure speculation, with no known basis, that the "good guy with a gun" executed the shooter in his car. Therefore, no "good guy" with a gun here.
BS: guy just shot up a church, didn't exit the car on demand, and you don't have time to search him or his car for weapons. No way anyone in their right mind would call that an "execution" unless they found him unconscious but clearly still alive and put a couple more in him from muzzle contact.
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BS: guy just shot up a church, didn't exit the car on demand, and you don't have time to search him or his car for weapons. No way anyone in their right mind would call that an "execution" unless they found him unconscious but clearly still alive and put a couple more in him from muzzle contact.
Oh, don't get me wrong, please. What I'm hearing is from the more liberal people floating around here, and it appears to me to be an effort to negate the acts of the "good guy with a gun" side of the story. I"m hearing the same people say that the neighbor responding didn't save anyone, so his having a gun did no good...except that he fired on the bad guy, made him leave the area, and essentially ended the shooting spree. I'd say he (and his gun) did some good. And if he happened to inflict a fatal injury on the bad guy...oh well.
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Oh, don't get me wrong, please. What I'm hearing is from the more liberal people floating around here, and it appears to me to be an effort to negate the acts of the "good guy with a gun" side of the story. I"m hearing the same people say that the neighbor responding didn't save anyone, so his having a gun did no good...except that he fired on the bad guy, made him leave the area, and essentially ended the shooting spree. I'd say he (and his gun) did some good. And if he happened to inflict a fatal injury on the bad guy...oh well.
If there's any doubt at all whose bullet killed the guy (and maybe if there is no doubt) IMHO the police will say the fatal shot was self-inflicted to protect the Good Samaritan's conscience and so the Bad Guy's family doesn't get any ideas about filing a wrongful death lawsuit.
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http://nbc4i.com/2017/11/06/man-hailed-a-hero-after-chasing-down-texas-church-shooter/
Here's video of an interview with the driver. He indicates that no shots were fired during the chase of after the bad guy crashed.
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If there's any doubt at all whose bullet killed the guy (and maybe if there is no doubt) IMHO the police will say the fatal shot was self-inflicted to protect the Good Samaritan's conscience and so the Bad Guy's family doesn't get any ideas about filing a wrongful death lawsuit.
Not a bad reason to keep the final death detail close. The armed neighbor had a very serious impact on the crime being committed even if Kelley didn't die from his wound. I read that Kelley phoned his Dad and said he didn't think he was going to "make it"..... and he was referring to the neighbor inflicted wound at that point.
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It has now come out that one of the victims was the shooter's grandmother-in-law. His mother-in-law didn't attend service on Sunday, but he had been sending her threatening text messages.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/11/06/18-month-old-among-texas-church-shooting-victims/
I think we're closing in on a motive ... but if he was intent on getting back at his wife's family (and, perhaps, his wife), why try to murder an entire church congregation? Except, of course, that they were Christians, and he apparently had developed a hatred of Christianity. So maybe for him it was like one stop shopping. Take out the wife's family, and kill a bunch of Christians while he was at it.
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I think to a certain extant it's become the fashionable "go out in a blaze of glory" thing to do a mass killing.
If a certain subset of crazies has gotten to the point where they are going to take out a loved one (or three) and themselves, they pad the body count for the media hits.
No telling if he had plans to survive this or wanted to go find the missing ex-wife, though. Sometimes crazy is just crazy.
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It has now come out that one of the victims was the shooter's grandmother-in-law. His mother-in-law didn't attend service on Sunday, but he had been sending her threatening text messages.
So; threats from a guy that the wife and likely MiL knew to be in possession of a firearm after a DV conviction. Did they not take it seriously enough to pass that on to LE, or did LE drop the ball on a dead simple arrest and 10 year sentence that would have prevented this whole mess?
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Y'know, the entertainment value of liberals is endless.
They can't decide whether the shooter stopped because he was out of ammo (and not because of the armed good guy) or somehow kept such a perfect count that he knew he only had the one round left for his suicide.
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I think we're closing in on a motive ... but if he was intent on getting back at his wife's family (and, perhaps, his wife), why try to murder an entire church congregation? Except, of course, that they were Christians, and he apparently had developed a hatred of Christianity. So maybe for him it was like one stop shopping. Take out the wife's family, and kill a bunch of Christians while he was at it.
He may have believed that the people at the church were influencing his wife against him. And he may have been correct.
And as others have said, he wanted to get his face and name on every news broadcast for a week. ;/
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Y'know, the entertainment value of liberals is endless.
They can't decide whether the shooter stopped because he was out of ammo (and not because of the armed good guy) or somehow kept such a perfect count that he knew he only had the one round left for his suicide.
Then there's the "the good guy didn't stop it from happening, but a gun ban would have" argument...
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/6/16612014/sutherland-springs-shooting-good-guy-gun
By the way, I looked. Anyone know what the good guy used? (kind of hoping it was am AT type rifle, but a lever gun would be more poetic in Texas.)
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It has now come out that one of the victims was the shooter's grandmother-in-law. His mother-in-law didn't attend service on Sunday, but he had been sending her threatening text messages.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2017/11/06/18-month-old-among-texas-church-shooting-victims/
I think we're closing in on a motive ... but if he was intent on getting back at his wife's family (and, perhaps, his wife), why try to murder an entire church congregation? Except, of course, that they were Christians, and he apparently had developed a hatred of Christianity. So maybe for him it was like one stop shopping. Take out the wife's family, and kill a bunch of Christians while he was at it.
There was a definite signal-to-noise problem yesterday, but among all the "He was ISIS! No! He was Antifa!" chatter that went in all directions there was a lot of people that the media found as his FB "friends" saying he'd go on anti-religion rants.
If there was any hard Leftist beliefs or affiliation that also motivated him (it would mesh well with the militant angry Atheist thing...) It's probably going into the memory-hole.
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-church-shooting-suspects-military-conviction-prevented-firearms/story?id=50969640
The Air Force has confirmed that his trial was a general court martial, and that his conviction should have made him a prohibited person. So ... we don't need any new laws, we need to make the laws we have work as intended.
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There was a definite signal-to-noise problem yesterday, but among all the "He was ISIS! No! He was Antifa!" chatter that went in all directions there was a lot of people that the media found as his FB "friends" saying he'd go on anti-religion rants.
If there was any hard Leftist beliefs or affiliation that also motivated him (it would mesh well with the militant angry Atheist thing...) It's probably going into the memory-hole.
It wasn't a mass murder, it was just a domestic dispute. (Just like Fort Hood wasn't an Islamist terrorist attack, it was only "workplace violence.")
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-church-shooting-suspects-military-conviction-prevented-firearms/story?id=50969640
The Air Force has confirmed that his trial was a general court martial, and that his conviction should have made him a prohibited person. So ... we don't need any new laws, we need to make the laws we have work as intended.
Just heard on CNN that the USAF has indicated it made a mistake and didn't report the conviction, so it wouldn't have appeared when he purchased the gun. Oops.
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Just heard on CNN that the USAF has indicated it made a mistake and didn't report the conviction, so it wouldn't have appeared when he purchased the gun. Oops.
And how many more have they not reported?
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Just heard on CNN that the USAF has indicated it made a mistake and didn't report the conviction, so it wouldn't have appeared when he purchased the gun. Oops.
In retrospect, a VERY big oops.
As I wrote -- the system didn't work. Before we start screeching about new laws, we need to get serious about enforcing the ones we already have.
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As I wrote -- the system didn't work. Before we start screeching about new laws, we need to get serious about enforcing the ones we already have.
Yep, no point adding more hoops if the existing hoops aren't working.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/us/texas-shooting-church.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article
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Did the in-laws report the threats to local police?
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Did the in-laws report the threats to local police?
Nobody seems to be saying. Not sure if that's protecting the family or LE.
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Just heard on CNN that the USAF has indicated it made a mistake and didn't report the conviction, so it wouldn't have appeared when he purchased the gun. Oops.
https://nyti.ms/2hLMM9L
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Willeford, a former NRA instructor, got his rifle out of his safe while his daughter looked outside again. She ran back in and told him she saw a man in black tactical gear shooting up the church.
http://www.4029tv.com/article/man-who-shot-texas-church-gunman-shares-his-story/13437943 (turn down your speakers before clicking)
Clearly, the problem is lax church attendance among NRA members. =)
David Frum, however, has another solution. He wants a lifetime ban on gun ownership for those convicted of domestic violence.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/CDJo4EgHwbaPS/giphy.gif)
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I'm liking the driver that helped pursue him.
I'd heard that the shooter had bought a few rifles over the years. I wonder if the others were bought before his discharge.
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I'm liking the driver that helped pursue him.
I'd heard that the shooter had bought a few rifles over the years. I wonder if the others were bought before his discharge.
Reports are that every gun he had he bought post-conviction.
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http://tribunist.com/news/the-incredible-details-of-the-sniper-shot-taken-by-a-plumber-that-took-down-the-texas-gunman/?utm_source=CDH
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9DLGTYd5wE
"The world does not owe us a life of perfect safety."
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DN-h6BqVwAAJONx.jpg:small)
I haven't heard yet if it was a "gun-free zone," but aside from that; well-played.
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http://tribunist.com/news/the-incredible-details-of-the-sniper-shot-taken-by-a-plumber-that-took-down-the-texas-gunman/?utm_source=CDH
I like that the guy was both an NRA member and a plumber. Both are prime examples of "deplorables" to progressives. Plus he gave a very humble interview.
Completely separating all this from the actual tragedy, the guy is pretty much the opposite of the beer swilling, brodozer driving, tshirt with the sleeves ripped off "redneck". Which is how the left would generally portray a "plumber NRA member" (especially one that lived in small town TX).
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@DLoesch
NRA can confirm Stephen Willeford is a member & has been certified as a NRA firearms instructor. #SutherlandSprings
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9DLGTYd5wE
"The world does not owe us a life of perfect safety."
It's important to note what he said at 3:35: "You see, he hadn't finished yet."
How does he know this? Because the shooter was after his mother-in-law, and she wasn't in church that day. So, if he had not been shot by the neighbor, more than likely the next stop would have been his mother-in-law's house.
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In retrospect, a VERY big oops.
As I wrote -- the system didn't work. Before we start screeching about new laws, we need to get serious about enforcing the ones we already have.
But on the other hand, how difficult would it be for Kelley to buy from an individual who doesn't even know him? The guy would have gotten the guns regardless. It just took less effort to buy at regular FFL dealers because he passed the NICS check. So we're back to universal background checks and if the legislators can come up with a mental health screen that is reasonable, they'll probably do it.
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Universal background checks have the same problem as virtually everything else the anti-gun crew propose -- they burden honest, law-abiding people while not doing anything to stop the problem. Just like "No Guns Allowed" signs -- if there had been a 30.06 sign posted at the entrances to that church, does anyone think the shooter would have turned around and gone home?
Can't buy a gun because you can't pass a background check? No problem -- steal one. Or buy one from a guy who stole it and who doesn't bother to run background checks.
(30.06 sign: https://www.texas3006.com/signs.php )
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But on the other hand, how difficult would it be for Kelley to buy from an individual who doesn't even know him? The guy would have gotten the guns regardless. It just took less effort to buy at regular FFL dealers because he passed the NICS check. So we're back to universal background checks and if the legislators can come up with a mental health screen that is reasonable, they'll probably do it.
What makes you think they care about "reasonable? ? ? ?" ;)
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Universal background checks have the same problem as virtually everything else the anti-gun crew propose -- they burden honest, law-abiding people while not doing anything to stop the problem. Just like "No Guns Allowed" signs -- if there had been a 30.06 sign posted at the entrances to that church, does anyone think the shooter would have turned around and gone home?
Can't buy a gun because you can't pass a background check? No problem -- steal one. Or buy one from a guy who stole it and who doesn't bother to run background checks.
I agree with you but I was thinking in terms of a anti-gun legislator. Any significant changes would still have to get through both houses of Congress and usually signed by the President.
Reasonable... yeah, all you have to do is look at California.
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I agree with you but I was thinking in terms of a anti-gun legislator. Any significant changes would still have to get through both houses of Congress and usually signed by the President.
Reasonable... yeah, all you have to do is look at California.
Don't forget that's why Bloomberg and other anti-gunners are targeting State legislators... you touch on that by mentioning California.
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Universal background checks have the same problem as virtually everything else the anti-gun crew propose -- they burden honest, law-abiding people while not doing anything to stop the problem. Just like "No Guns Allowed" signs -- if there had been a 30.06 sign posted at the entrances to that church, does anyone think the shooter would have turned around and gone home?
Can't buy a gun because you can't pass a background check? No problem -- steal one. Or buy one from a guy who stole it and who doesn't bother to run background checks.
(30.06 sign: https://www.texas3006.com/signs.php )
Or pour gas & light it up. If crazy want to kill, crazy will kill.
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Don't forget that's why Bloomberg and other anti-gunners are targeting State legislators... you touch on that by mentioning California.
This is how we ended up with universal background checks in Washington between private parties: the Bloomberg-financed initiative campaign.
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OK, first it was David Frum. Now a U.S. Senator has called for taking guns away from domestic abusers. :facepalm:
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/11/07/schatz-the-bed-dem-senator-from-hawaii-wins-twitter-for-worst-gun-take-yet/
I sure am glad we have TOP MEN working on this gun control thing.
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And another celebrity expert on firearms law has chimed in:
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/11/05/alyssa-milano-gets-ripped-for-bald-faced-lie-on-background-checks-for-ar-15s-in-texas/
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And another celebrity expert on firearms law has chimed in:
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/11/05/alyssa-milano-gets-ripped-for-bald-faced-lie-on-background-checks-for-ar-15s-in-texas/
What's extra-fun is that she names Shannon Watts as her source for this truly-true fact of #gunsense.
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Just "love it" when personalities offer their opinions when they don't have a clue about what they're talking about.
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OK, first it was David Frum. Now a U.S. Senator has called for taking guns away from domestic abusers. :facepalm:
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/11/07/schatz-the-bed-dem-senator-from-hawaii-wins-twitter-for-worst-gun-take-yet/
I sure am glad we have TOP MEN working on this gun control thing.
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
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Well, Jeff Flake is doing something about all this. Note his attempt to get out of being an idiot by responding to Don Trump Jr with, "loophole".
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/11/07/sen-jeff-flake-writing-a-bill-to-close-the-nonexistent-domestic-violence-loophole/
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Not only did the Air Force fail to comply with gun laws, but the Democrats actually filibustered legislation that [Ted Cruz] sponsored that would have forced them to comply with the law which might have prevented this massacre from happening.
Read more: http://therightscoop.com/ted-cruz-reveals-how-democrats-filibustered-legislation-that-would-have-forced-the-air-force-to-update-ncic/#ixzz4xmlmWjx1
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Whoa!
In 2012, after he had been arrested for assaulting his first wife and the baby, but before his court martial, the Air Force sent him to a mental facility, from which he escaped.
http://www.newser.com/story/251261/texas-shooter-escaped-from-psychiatric-hospital-in-2012.html
So not only did he assault his wife and kid (still not sure if the kid was hers, or theirs), he also threatened his superior officers, tried to smuggle firearms onto a military installation, and (effectively) went AWOL. And for all this he received a sentence of just one year in confinement, and the appeal board upgraded his discharge from dishonorable to bad conduct.
The more information that comes out, the worse the Air Force looks in this thing.
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Anybody else hear this? http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/church-shooter-escaped-mental-health-facility-after-attacking-wife/ar-BBEH889?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp
Apparently he had quite the history, including as the address says, escaping a mental health facility back in 2012. Also apparently he had tried to sneak firearms onto base where he was making death threats against his chain of command. How the hell was he dropped from getting a dishonorable discharge? ???
Also am curious about what caused his concealed carry application in Texas to be denied.
Dangit! Hawkmoon beat me too it.
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This guy was what we used to call "a real piece of work."
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Absolutely heart breaking as a dad to read that kids were hiding on the floor and crying while the guy methodically shot them. Anyone with a gun would have saved some life, who knows how much.
I don't much care for the sheep hitter pipe dogs or however Tam is best snarking it, but crap like this has tipped me more and more to collective responsibility. My kid or someone else's, I am more expendable. I don't expect to be a hero, but in the finest tradition of military sentries everywhere, die in a loud and glorious manner.
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I don't much care for the sheep hitter pipe dogs or however Tam is best snarking it, but crap like this has tipped me more and more to collective responsibility. My kid or someone else's, I am more expendable. I don't expect to be a hero, but in the finest tradition of military sentries everywhere, die in a loud and glorious manner.
Damn skippy. Chest beating idiots aside, ANY armed congregation couldn't have made it any worse.
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Absolutely heart breaking as a dad to read that kids were hiding on the floor and crying while the guy methodically shot them. Anyone with a gun would have saved some life, who knows how much.
I don't much care for the sheep hitter pipe dogs or however Tam is best snarking it, but crap like this has tipped me more and more to collective responsibility. My kid or someone else's, I am more expendable. I don't expect to be a hero, but in the finest tradition of military sentries everywhere, die in a loud and glorious manner.
I believe it has been shown that in just about all cases of mass shooting or attempted mass shooting, the shooter stops as soon they meet armed or effective resistance. They either commit suicide, run, or give up.
But yeah, even if you end up on the losing side of a gun fight, you might buy time for others to get away.
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The fact that this guy was wearing what has been described as a "ballistic" vest reminds me of something a retired police chief told me recently. I had commented to someone that the training I have received called for two shots to center of mass, stop and assess, and if the bad guy is still a threat then a third shot to the head (or what my police friend refers to as "the snot locker"). My friend jumped in and said too many bad guys are wearing personal body armor these days, so three shots isn't enough. He feels five is a minimum.
At the least, I think I need to modify my mindset to make it two+one immediately. If the likelihood is that an opponent is wearing body armor, why waste the time assessing, and giving him a chance to catch his breath after the two shots to the vest?
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My mindset is keep shooting till the threat is neutralized.
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The fact that this guy was wearing what has been described as a "ballistic" vest reminds me of something a retired police chief told me recently. I had commented to someone that the training I have received called for two shots to center of mass, stop and assess, and if the bad guy is still a threat then a third shot to the head (or what my police friend refers to as "the snot locker"). My friend jumped in and said too many bad guys are wearing personal body armor these days, so three shots isn't enough. He feels five is a minimum.
At the least, I think I need to modify my mindset to make it two+one immediately. If the likelihood is that an opponent is wearing body armor, why waste the time assessing, and giving him a chance to catch his breath after the two shots to the vest?
Most police training now teaches "shoot to the ground." If the threat is up, keep firing. Of course, they have a paid vacation liability policy wheras you don't. So, got to hit the right something. Two ideas to think on for crowded environments. One is angles to achieve greater safety. For example shooting from a crouch or kneel so pass through or misses do not go directly to the crowd. The other is a contact shot if you can get it, again trying to control the exit angle.
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Police also have qualified immunity ...
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I wonder how many of the vests the bad guys are wearing are not really body armor, but just tactical-looking vests that resemble body armor? Reporters being what they are, can't tell the difference.
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I wonder how many of the vests the bad guys are wearing are not really body armor, but just tactical-looking vests that resemble body armor? Reporters being what they are, can't tell the difference.
True, but in this case I think it was a "bulletproof" vest. First, apparently the guy was a fanatic about weapons. Second, more than one of the early articles mentioned a "ballistic belt" [sic], which tells us the police must have referred to it as a ballistic vest and the reporter(s) had no idea what that is, so they went with "belt." Third, the reports of the neighbor's shooting the guy mentioned hitting him through a gap in his body armor. I think this really was personal body armor. My question is whether it was soft body armor or if he was wearing trauma plates.
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The fact that this guy was wearing what has been described as a "ballistic" vest reminds me of something a retired police chief told me recently. I had commented to someone that the training I have received called for two shots to center of mass, stop and assess, and if the bad guy is still a threat then a third shot to the head (or what my police friend refers to as "the snot locker").
Hearts and minds.
Two to the heart, one to the mind :P
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My mindset is keep shooting till the threat is neutralized.
Proper mindset.
Considering how ineffective handgun rounds are, I suggest at least three to five shots as a minimum. Add in that many of these whackos are under the influence of drugs and might not respond to pain, then one should be prepared to shoot many more times.
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Proper mindset.
Considering how ineffective handgun rounds are, I suggest at least three to five shots as a minimum. Add in that many of these whackos are under the influence of drugs and might not respond to pain, then one should be prepared to shoot many more times.
Trying to put enough holes in the closed loop hydraulic system so it can't continue working.
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Holy crap. Apparently this is an actual USA Today piece. The chainsaw bayonet mod on the AR-15.
God almighty.
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2017/11/08/what-in-the-actual-fck-there-is-no-topping-usa-todays-look-at-devin-kelleys-rifle/
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBego4zKk08
Good fisking of the ohtehnoeswhitemales!! garbage.
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I remember shooting an IDPA match with the perp wearing body armor. Shot sequence was one each leg one groin and one to the head. No pause until after the 4th shot.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Holy crap. Apparently this is an actual USA Today piece. The chainsaw bayonet mod on the AR-15.
God almighty.
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2017/11/08/what-in-the-actual-fck-there-is-no-topping-usa-todays-look-at-devin-kelleys-rifle/
Not an AR but....https://youtu.be/xFSpLbUgrkQ (https://youtu.be/xFSpLbUgrkQ)
Oh and check this out...https://www.panaceax.com/weaponized-chainsaw/ (https://www.panaceax.com/weaponized-chainsaw/)
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USA Today libsplains their graphic:
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2017/11/08/annnnnd-im-dead-usa-todays-chainsaw-bayonet-clarification-is-an-instant-classic/
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Holy crap. Apparently this is an actual USA Today piece. The chainsaw bayonet mod on the AR-15.
God almighty.
https://twitchy.com/sarahd-313035/2017/11/08/what-in-the-actual-fck-there-is-no-topping-usa-todays-look-at-devin-kelleys-rifle/
If you scroll down a little bit they start showing photoshops. :rofl:
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Wish I could afford the $300 for my Swiss engineer dream bayonet. With a few mods you can hang this saw toothed sword on an AR, looks positively terrifying.
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Not an AR but....https://youtu.be/xFSpLbUgrkQ (https://youtu.be/xFSpLbUgrkQ)
The tuxedo tee shirt adds a certain je ne sais quoi.
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Some more potential AR modifications:
https://twitchy.com/gregp-3534/2017/11/09/if-you-thought-usatodays-chainsaw-bayonet-was-terrifying-check-out-these-other-possiblemodifications/
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I'm holding out for a Ted Kennedy's Car bayonet. With that one, you get carbon footprint, white privilege, toxic 1%-er masculinity - it's all there.
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I'm holding out for a Ted Kennedy's Car bayonet. With that one, you get carbon footprint, white privilege, toxic 1%-er masculinity - it's all there.
+ sexual assault, womanizing, and probably man-splaining, too.
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(https://i.imgur.com/ySsxIfv.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/ySsxIfv.jpg)
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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@CNN
A Texas church has held its first service since a gunman opened fire, killing 25 people and an unborn child one week ago...
https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2017/11/13/dafuq-cnn-this-summary-of-texas-church-shooting-victims-sends-heads-to-desks/
Those who went to the memorial found 25 red roses on 25 white chairs, representing each of the victims who lost their lives. A single pink rose was placed on a chair in honor of the unborn child.
Hey, at least they admit he was a child.
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https://twitchy.com/dougp-3137/2017/11/13/dafuq-cnn-this-summary-of-texas-church-shooting-victims-sends-heads-to-desks/
Is it so difficult to say "26 people, including an unborn child"? That covers all the bases; let the reader decide whether the young'un counts or not, or maybe counts extra.
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Is it so difficult to say "26 people, including an unborn child"? That covers all the bases; let the reader decide whether the young'un counts or not, or maybe counts extra.
That changes the default assumption about the personhood of an unborn child - something that would rile up a chunk of CNN's viewership.