Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on December 06, 2017, 12:28:43 PM
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http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-expected-declare-jerusalem-capital-israel/story?id=51600561
I must say, the man has cajones.
Personally, I applaud the move, but I am concerned about what the reaction and response will be from our so-called "friends and allies" in the Arab world.
On the other hand, the Pope is opposed, so in my mind that almost automatically makes it the right thing to do. https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-francis-defends-jerusalem-status-quo-095403674.html The current Pope is a disgrace to the papacy.
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Personally, I applaud the move, but I am concerned about what the reaction and response will be from our so-called "friends and allies" in the Arab world.
Response? They'll get over it. It's all bluster. The "peace process" will be unaffected because the Palestinian leaders (and those who vote for them) don't want peace. They want dead Jews.
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Palestine will bitch, some Arab nations might say a few harsh words in "support" of Palestine, but I don't see any of them stepping up to the plate to help the Palestinians.
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Once again, the mask slips and Trump reveals himself as literally Hitler.
:mad:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FbEHKuVo.png&hash=70c7021f8412d850804f80dd270f874592336ebe)
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Once again, the mask slips and Trump reveals himself as literally Hitler.
:mad:
I don't recall literal Hitler being this supportive of the Jews....
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I don't recall literal Hitler being this supportive of the Jews....
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhonestanswerradio.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F05%2Fsarcmeter.jpg&hash=d8e9f26b8f825278daf59e6df62531d33f133ec9)
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One step closer to peace between Israel and Palestine.
The reality is that Jerusalem has been and is the capital of Israel.
Making the world live in reality actually helps the cause of peace IMHO.
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Why would a White Supremist, Racist, Nazi recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel ??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nc1d30mCHbo
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One step closer to peace between Israel and Palestine.
The reality is that Jerusalem has been and is the capital of Israel.
Making the world live in reality actually helps the cause of peace IMHO.
I tend to agree.
What I find "interesting" is that the UN has come out against Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital.Yet it was the UN that created Israel in the first place. My history and geography are lacking. Was Jerusalem within -- or contiguous to/shared with -- the original boundaries of Israel, or was Jerusalem annexed by Israel as a result of the Six Days War?
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I tend to agree.
What I find "interesting" is that the UN has come out against Trump's recognition of Jerusalem as the capital.Yet it was the UN that created Israel in the first place. My history and geography are lacking. Was Jerusalem within -- or contiguous to/shared with -- the original boundaries of Israel, or was Jerusalem annexed by Israel as a result of the Six Days War?
That would be number 2.
This is about as much “reality” as the reality that Assad was falling to the FSA. There is so much foreign policy fail here it’s not even funny
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I did some reading. The Six Days War annexed EAST Jerusalem. It appears that the original territory of Israel, as first established by the UN, included a chunk of Jerusalem, and the war just expanded it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Jerusalem
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Passes my usual test, "are all the right people howling about it?" :cool:
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That would be number 2.
This is about as much “reality” as the reality that Assad was falling to the FSA. There is so much foreign policy fail here it’s not even funny
Not really. The people who didn't like us still don't like us. They were never going to likes us anyway so no point worrying about their feelings.
That is one thing I never cared for about our foreign policy. We throw our weight around on some things, but tip-toe with great care on others that are inconsequential in the long run.
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Not really. The people who didn't like us still don't like us. They were never going to likes us anyway so no point worrying about their feelings.
That is one thing I never cared for about our foreign policy. We throw our weight around on some things, but tip-toe with great care on others that are inconsequential in the long run.
You don’t see maintaining a relationship with turkey and Saudi Arabia as important in the long run??
This move was gift to Iran
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Would this even be an issue if Jordan et. all still owned East Jerusalem? Note to palestinian self, stop sucking at war.
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You don’t see maintaining a relationship with turkey and Saudi Arabia as important in the long run??
This move was gift to Iran
If we're going to maintain a relationship with Turkey, somebody needs to get rid of Erdogan. It's a pity that coup attempt failed.
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You don’t see maintaining a relationship with turkey and Saudi Arabia as important in the long run??
This move was gift to Iran
We don't have a relationship with Saudi Arabia. Or rather, we have a relationship where they do as they please and are ->just<- short of overtly hostile and we pretend they are our friends and would help us and our allies out without being expensively bribed each time. We only get that much out of them because they know they need Fifth Fleet to smack the IRGN* down every now and then, and keep the Straights of Hormuz open in a shooting war.
Not saying Israel is an awesome ally, but at least if they help us in a war their forces are likely to be a net plus.
Besides, no intelligent person really thinks the Israel-Palestinian peace process is going to result in anything resembling peace anytime soon.
This move doesn't change any of that, except give folks something to bicker about besides the shape of the conference table.
*ETA: Iranian Revolutionary Guard corps Navy. Apologies to 230RN in advance.
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You don’t see maintaining a relationship with turkey and Saudi Arabia as important in the long run??
This move was gift to Iran
What dogmush said.
If "maintaining a relationship" means continuing to play games with the Palestinians then there is no relationship. We have tip toed around that issue for decades and it has never gotten us anywhere. Turkey and Saudi Arabia don't give a crap about the Palestinians. They are just a political tool against Israel and us.
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What dogmush said.
If "maintaining a relationship" means continuing to play games with the Palestinians then there is no relationship. We have tip toed around that issue for decades and it has never gotten us anywhere. Turkey and Saudi Arabia don't give a crap about the Palestinians. They are just a political tool against Israel and us.
The Saudis are allied with Israel. But their people don’t accept that alliance.
Mass protests (to the benefit of the Iranian aligned part of that world) are underway. I think it’s safe to conclude that they still care about the Palestinians.
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If we're going to maintain a relationship with Turkey, somebody needs to get rid of Erdogan. It's a pity that coup attempt failed.
I don't think there ever really was a coup. Given how poorly it was run, I think it was Erdogan's Riechstag Fire; he set it up to give him the excuse he needed to purge the military and government of any opposition.
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I don't think there ever really was a coup. Given how poorly it was run, I think it was Erdogan's Riechstag Fire; he set it up to give him the excuse he needed to purge the military and government of any opposition.
Ding ding, we have a winner.
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Mass protests (to the benefit of the Iranian aligned part of that world) are underway. I think it’s safe to conclude that they still care about the Palestinians.
Some Saudi citizens care about Palestine in the same way American liberals care about causes. i.e. they are willing to make some noise and burn some tires, but aren't really going to do anything more. They expect the "government" to do something,
Also, in case you haven't spent much time there, mass protests are just what you do on the weekends in the mid-east. Anything that upset you during the week gets a chant and tire fire. They mean jack all as to what the countries might or might not do.
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Some Saudi citizens care about Palestine in the same way American liberals care about causes. i.e. they are willing to make some noise and burn some tires, but aren't really going to do anything more. They expect the "government" to do something,
Also, in case you haven't spent much time there, mass protests are just what you do on the weekends in the mid-east. Anything that upset you during the week gets a chant and tire fire. They mean jack all as to what the countries might or might not do.
Sure. Except Israel has led to the formation of sizeable private armies including Palestinians and non-Palestinian arabs over time, and in relation to Saudi Arabia was a key motivator for Al Qaeda. There are people risking their lives to fight that country in every single one of Israel’s neighbours.
I think it’s safe to say the issue is more than a pet cause across the region.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeG8Kk-f9nQ
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Sure. Except Israel has led to the formation of sizeable private armies including Palestinians and non-Palestinian arabs over time, and in relation to Saudi Arabia was a key motivator for Al Qaeda. There are people risking their lives to fight that country in every single one of Israel’s neighbours.
I think it’s safe to say the issue is more than a pet cause across the region.
You've never spent any real time in the mid-east. It shows.
Certainly Arab Muslims get upset, loud, and to western sensibilities violent over the issue of Palestine. It ranks right up there with the 150 other issues Arab Muslims protest and fight about which include, but are not limited to, court verdicts they don't like, regional religious leader edicts, things in western newspapers, particularly egregious calls in soccer, and battles from 200BCE that there are only oral histories of.*
So, Yes, there are Saudi civilians that will protest, probably this week, about Israel, this move by Trump, and the "occupation" of Jerusalem. No, recognizing the capital will not actually effect politics in the region on a timescale measured in months, much less years.
Here's the nasty, actual truth: There will be no peace between Palestinian Muslims and Israeli Jews until one or the other is wiped out Carthage style. The "owner" of Jerusalem is whomever won the last war, has been for centuries, and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. Whichever group lost the last war will use violence to try and win it back. The idea that there can actually be peace that lasts between two such diametrically opposed cultures and traditions is a particularly Western conceit, and our blind resistance to that fact just kills more people and drags out the issue.
*Those are not exaggerations for effect. I have personally seen mass demonstrations that killed multiple people over each of those issues. I'm sure there are more examples. I'm talking Tire fire barricades, burning of buildings, whole parts of cities shut down and running gun battles in the streets kind of "demonstrations".
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Dogmush, I don’t think a stint in SA is necessary to observe the broad based, visceral Arab belief in Palestinian rights.
It is not the case that opposition is limited to Muslims. Arab Christians, Arab communists, and pretty much all sects have had their own opposition groups. It is the one issue that consistently unites all religions in region.
It seems odd for you to claim that Arabs don’t really care, and then assert there will be no peace without Carthage style war.
The fairly obvious solution is to have a constitutional government in Israel that requires equal treatment at law irrespective of a person’s religion. Palestinians are among the most secular of Arab populations and essentially every grievance they have with Israel would be resolved by that rule.
Of course, you couldn’t have anything like the policies that exist now if you had religious equality there.
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There's that western conceit.
A medium to long stint in the mid east is necessary because it is the only way to actually grasp the differences in culture.
They don't really care but when reminded, or stirred up, will happily die or kill over it. Arabs.
You really, really don't understand the mid-east till you live it. It's a lot like Africa that way. Seriously, the underlying assumptions you look at the world with don't apply to the mid-east. You are just wrong. It's why the West keeps *expletive deleted*ing up dealing with the mid-east.
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Dogmush, I don’t think a stint in SA is necessary to observe the broad based, visceral Arab belief in Palestinian rights.
Just to hammer the point home, this is why you are so very wrong.
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There's that western conceit.
A medium to long stint in the mid east is necessary because it is the only way to actually grasp the differences in culture.
They don't really care but when reminded, or stirred up, will happily die or kill over it. Arabs.
You really, really don't understand the mid-east till you live it. It's a lot like Africa that way. Seriously, the underlying assumptions you look at the world with don't apply to the mid-east. You are just wrong. It's why the West keeps *expletive deleted*ing up dealing with the mid-east.
Sorry, but your appeal to personal experience doesn’t stack up against the facts available to everyone about the place.
There are prominent Christian and Atheist militants who say the exact same thing about Israel that Muslim groups do. On the flip side, somehow Syria, Iran, Lebanon, Turkey, and everywhere else in the ME not ruled by a US backed dicrator manage to have Jewish populations that get along.
If your claims about the Arab mind were correct, that wouldn’t be possible. In fact the only places where it seems to be true are gulf monarchies, which again are essentially US client states.
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When attempting to describe the Arab mindset, it's useful to read up on what folks who have lived there nearly all of their lives and have interacted with Arab/ME culture(s). DeSelby oversimplifies things with his obviously biased political leanings. One particular book to read that is helpful is The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones.
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*Those are not exaggerations for effect. I have personally seen mass demonstrations that killed multiple people over each of those issues. I'm sure there are more examples. I'm talking Tire fire barricades, burning of buildings, whole parts of cities shut down and running gun battles in the streets kind of "demonstrations".
Are you sure you weren't in Chicago or St. Louis?
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Sorry, but your appeal to personal experience doesn’t stack up against the facts available to everyone about the place.
The trouble with our Liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.
As I said earlier, you lack the underlying cultural assumptions to even properly understand what you are reading about the folks in the mid-east. Attitudes like yours are what lead to the failure's of Hillary's State Department, and the continuing surprise in the west that they are still killing each other.
You, literally, don't even know what you don't know.
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When attempting to describe the Arab mindset, it's useful to read up on what folks who have lived there nearly all of their lives and have interacted with Arab/ME culture(s). DeSelby oversimplifies things with his obviously biased political leanings. One particular book to read that is helpful is The Closed Circle by David Pryce-Jones.
that book is one of the most hypocritical texts ever written
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that book is one of the most hypocritical texts ever written
What does the author being a Democrat have to do with it? ???
=D
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Trump understands that they (to include various Europeans and their leaders) will "dislike" us no matter what we do, so his attitude is "Screw You, I/We are going to do what is in America's best interest."
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Trump understands that they (to include various Europeans and their leaders) will "dislike" us no matter what we do, so his attitude is "Screw You, I/We are going to do what is in America's best interest."
That is really where I come down on this. Doing what makes Middle Eastern Muslims and their leaders happy is a rabbit hole with no end. You can never do enough and they won't respect you for it anyway. I feel like our country has been trying to walk that line in a number of ways in recent decades and it never seems to work out very well in the end.
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I would love for Tillerson to sit down with Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and say you will recognize Israel's right to exist you will make peace with Israel there will be a two-party settlement otherwise we cut off our funding and not only that we're going to talk to the Swiss, the Cayman Islands and any place else you have stashed money previously and we're going to take every last penny out of all your numbered bank accounts that you have hidden in stashed and cut you off afterwards and you'll either make peace are your people will hang you out to dry when they find out how much you've been embezzling from them. We don't care....
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your people will hang you out to dry when they find out how much you've been embezzling from them. We don't care....
Way passed time for that to have happened anyway. Expose the corruption of the leadership and let the chips fall where they may.
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Trump understands that they (to include various Europeans and their leaders) will "dislike" us no matter what we do, so his attitude is "Screw You, I/We are going to do what is in America's best interest."
Okay - how is this move in America’s best interests? I would love to hear someone articulate the tangible benefit to America of joining the Israelis in antagonising the entire Middle East.
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Those poor, poor, misunderstood mideasterners.
There won't be peace there until Israel is allowed to win the war against the Palestine Terrorists and stomp them into an alternate dimension...hopefully one full of bacon, pigs, and dogs. >:D
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Those poor, poor, misunderstood mideasterners.
There won't be peace there until Israel is allowed to win the war against the Palestine Terrorists and stomp them into an alternate dimension...hopefully one full of bacon, pigs, and dogs. >:D
Here’s what Ronald Reagan said about it: http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html)
WASHINGTON, March 28 - President Reagan said today that it would be ''most unwise'' for the United States to move its embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and he strongly suggested that he would veto legislation in Congress to require such a step.
In an interview, Mr. Reagan said a bill requiring the embassy to be moved ''should never have been introduced in Congress.'' He said the disposition of Jerusalem, the West Bank of the Jordan River and other areas ''must be negotiated'' between Israel and the Arab countries.
Asked if he would veto legislation on the embassy, the President said: ''I am hoping I won't have to. But like the several previous Presidents before me, I think that that is a most unwise thing.''
President Seems Relaxed
Although the Administration has opposed the legislation, Mr. Reagan has not addressed the issue publicly. He said the United States ''has no right to put itself in the position of trying to lean one way or the other on those areas for negotiation
But hey, it’s not like Ronald Reagan was an authority on the Arabs...
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Here’s what Ronald Reagan said about it: http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html)
But hey, it’s not like Ronald Reagan was an authority on the Arabs...
Well, that was thirty-three years ago. NOT moving the embassy in order to appease the mad dog pro-Palestinian faction doesn't appear to have accomplished much in three-plus decades, so why not try something else?
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Here’s what Ronald Reagan said about it: http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html)
But hey, it’s not like Ronald Reagan was an authority on the Arabs...
Reagan wasn't Christ's second coming and has proven to have been wrong about a number of things. (Some, he repented of while still alive.)
In this, he was still dealing with the dispute as though it were between two honest brokers. It's not. The "Palestinians" want to drive the Jews into the sea. The rest of the Arabs hate the "Palestinians" and don't want them in their country, but so long as they can use them as a tool against the Jews, will support them "over there, but never in my backyard." Recognizing that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel ought to make the rest of the Middle East realize that Israel is a sovereign state and will not be negotiated away. That is what they want- Israel gone. Recognizing their proper capital is an indication that option is not on the table.
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Here’s what Ronald Reagan said about it: http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html (http://www.nytimes.com/1984/03/29/us/reagan-suggests-he-would-veto-bill-to-put-embassy-in-jerusalem.html)
But hey, it’s not like Ronald Reagan was an authority on the Arabs...
Too bad he's dead......
Wasn't he one of the president's who said he'd recognize Jerusalem but didn't do it? I forget....there were so many.....
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Last I checked every nation had the right to pick it's capital city. Therefore, other nations that recognize that nation should have it's embassy in the capital of that nation.
Plus this:
Well, that was thirty-three years ago. NOT moving the embassy in order to appease the mad dog pro-Palestinian faction doesn't appear to have accomplished much in three-plus decades, so why not try something else?
And we should cut off the money to the PA and Hamas. Fark 'em.
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Well, that was thirty-three years ago. NOT moving the embassy in order to appease the mad dog pro-Palestinian faction doesn't appear to have accomplished much in three-plus decades, so why not try something else?
And that was before Israel offered them nearly everything they had ever asked for and they still walked away from the deal.
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that book is one of the most hypocritical texts ever written
Have you ever read it? Have you lived in the ME? If so, how long. It seems like a lot of credible reviewers disagree with you. Pryce-Davies lived there. The relatives that he lived with were diplomats and well connected. I read the book right about the time of the first Gulf War. The happenings around the world and in the ME since seem to indicate that Pryce-Davies experiences, insights and conclusions are mostly correct.
To enlarge on the above. If you would like a bit more information you might also pick up a writing by SCOTUS Justice Robert Jackson: Law in the Middle East. Get some more insight you will. Also Andrew McCarthy had an interesting commentary on Islam. Seems he needed to know as much about Islam as he could since he was chief prosecutor of The Blind Sheik. He since has spent a good amount of time studying Islam. You can find that in Imprimis, Feb. 2016, volume 45, number 2.
Perhaps DeSelby would be enlightened a bit by also boning up on reality a bit more.
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Last I checked every nation had the right to pick it's capital city. Therefore, other nations that recognize that nation should have it's embassy in the capital of that nation.
Plus this:
And we should cut off the money to the PA and Hamas. Fark 'em.
So tell me - how does the two state solution happen if Israel expands into the capital of the other state?
The PA gets money because it helps Israel manage the Palestinians. Hamas used to get money from Israel to fight secularists (which were the biggest threat to Israel’s image). It gets no more.
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And that was before Israel offered them nearly everything they had ever asked for and they still walked away from the deal.
Factually incorrect - also on this point the Israelis rejected Reagan’s deal.
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And that was before Israel offered them nearly everything they had ever asked for and they still walked away from the deal.
My take on that was Arafat knowing that once he got everything he wanted would have to start taking responsibility for the general welfare of Palestine and it's people. That would have cut off his money train and shown how unqualified he was at anything more than a hustler and hate monger. I've worked with a lot very intelligent and western educated scientists, mechanical and electrical engineers from the middle east, including some Palestinians. The actual hatred for the Jews is mind boggling. I pointed out how the muslims in Israel are out-breeding the Jews and pointed out to some of them that they could take over the country in legal elections in less than 75 years. They all said that wasn't good enough. They want the Jews to die. I've had to work very closely with Egyptians, Saudis, Iranians (excuse me, Persians) Syrians, Turks, Yemenis, Tunisians, Algerians, Sudanese and more. All of them I've met want the Jews gone. If/When they get their collective wish they'll just move on the next group they're told to blame all their problems on. When they've purged the world of them and nothing but Muslims are left they'll go back to killing each other.
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Slugcatcher,
How do you explain Christian, Druze, and secular opposition to Israel in the ME? Are all those religions and political movements anti semites like the Muslims?
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De Selby, it seems it's pretty hard for you to counter the comments of someone who actually knows what he's talking about. All you can do is deflect with drivel? =D.
As for Israel moving its capital to Jerusalem: What's to move? Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel over a couple thousand years before there was any media creation called Palestinians. Israel has made several concessions of land and have agreed to a 2 state situation. The only reason it hasn't happened is because of unmitigated hatred, Arab tribalist culture, and avarice, greed and lust for power of those in charge of the Arabs.
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De Selby, it seems it's pretty hard for you to counter the comments of someone who actually knows what he's talking about. All you can do is deflect with drivel? =D.
As for Israel moving its capital to Jerusalem: What's to move? Jerusalem has been the capital of Israel over a couple thousand years before there was any media creation called Palestinians. Israel has made several concessions of land and have agreed to a 2 state situation. The only reason it hasn't happened is because of unmitigated hatred, Arab tribalist culture, and avarice, greed and lust for power of those in charge of the Arabs.
Hang on a second there.
When was the last time before the establishment of socialist Israel in the 20th century that Jerusalem was run by Israelis???
Also, can you identify a single piece of land that Israel gave in concession to anyone? Hint: I am asking that question knowing the answer. But I’d be happy to see a document that shows I’m wrong.
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Note: This is in general, not just in relation to the mid east. Applies to Apaches, Japan, and Argentina as well.
You want Land? Win the war.
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Note: This is in general, not just in relation to the mid east. Applies to Apaches, Japan, and Argentina as well.
You want Land? Win the war.
Okay, but do you expect people who live on that land to accept it just because someone else has bigger guns?
Did you have this same take on Northern Ireland, or States Rights in the US?
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Okay, but do you expect people who live on that land to accept it just because someone else has bigger guns?
I actually started to respond to that, but then noticed it was you.
Not teaching that pig to sing again.
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Okay, but do you expect people who live on that land to accept it just because someone else has bigger guns?
Pretty much, if they want to survive. That's how wars work. We're "civilized" enough these days that we don't enslave the women and children, but yeah. That's why we have bases in Japan and Germany.
I mean you can start (and/or add to) a generational feud, and some cultures are more likely than other to do so, and kick the sporty-ness back off when they think their guns are bigger. But that's pretty much how the world works. Strong folks make the rules until someone stronger comes along.
Did you have this same take on Northern Ireland, or States Rights in the US?
Don't you?
Northern Ireland is calm(ish)* and part of the UK. The southern states have had several generations of being smacked down and taking what the feds give them. Being "rebellious" in the US is waving an old flag while paying a 30+% marginal tax rate.
*Belfast (another place I've personally gone to) still has the air of a city kinda on edge, and there are still walled neighborhoods, but the overall vibe of the place is "on edge but expected to play nice because they lost". Rural Northern Ireland is much less overtly political. I was also there in the run up to an election so they might have been touchier than normal.
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Hang on a second there.
When was the last time before the establishment of socialist Israel in the 20th century that Jerusalem was run by Israelis???
Also, can you identify a single piece of land that Israel gave in concession to anyone? Hint: I am asking that question knowing the answer. But I’d be happy to see a document that shows I’m wrong.
Since you already claim to know the answer to your question, it's pointless to point out to you any facts. You always seem to argue rather than ponder something other than your worldview. The thing about the internet, other than there is a good deal of BS, there is a fairly accurate account of things if one is willing to set aside one's bias or dislike of a thing and spend a little time...maybe more than a little time discovering stuff. There are libraries as well. But then one needs to be willing to not have a closed mind.
As for me, I don't dislike Arabs even though history is rife with examples of their culture as not being much for civilized behavior and progress beyond the culture of feudal tribalism and hatred of opposing clans and differing sects of their religion. (Or maybe they just continue to be disappointed in being a descendant of Abraham's bastard son.) I'm just disappointed in the intractability of that culture in being able to recognize that civilization, freedom and western culture has proven it has much to offer other than the closed minds of feudal tribalism, shame/honor system, Sharia and a culture of oppression and death. (even if that Western civilization and freedom also offers sleaze and coarse behavior, it can be avoided easily by not participating; one is not forced to participate or be beheaded for disagreeing)
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Okay, but do you expect people who live on that land to accept it just because someone else has bigger guns?
......
Yes, I expect them to accept it.
Or die.
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Have you ever read it? Have you lived in the ME? If so, how long. It seems like a lot of credible reviewers disagree with you. Pryce-Davies lived there. The relatives that he lived with were diplomats and well connected. I read the book right about the time of the first Gulf War. The happenings around the world and in the ME since seem to indicate that Pryce-Davies experiences, insights and conclusions are mostly correct.
To enlarge on the above. If you would like a bit more information you might also pick up a writing by SCOTUS Justice Robert Jackson: Law in the Middle East. Get some more insight you will. Also Andrew McCarthy had an interesting commentary on Islam. Seems he needed to know as much about Islam as he could since he was chief prosecutor of The Blind Sheik. He since has spent a good amount of time studying Islam. You can find that in Imprimis, Feb. 2016, volume 45, number 2.
Perhaps DeSelby would be enlightened a bit by also boning up on reality a bit more.
Yes, I have read it and no, I have never lived in the ME.
My point about its hypocrisy is that he criticizes the Arab ruling class for being tribal, for focusing on the state as a means of self-enrichment and their ruthlessness without ever acknowledging that we (first the UK but then the wider West) have actively supported that sort on almost each and every occasion where their rule has been seriously challenged. If a movement turns up that threatens to modernize the country - which will inevitably reduce the power of its rulers - then they stomp on it, and we help them.
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Northern Ireland is calm(ish)* and part of the UK. The southern states have had several generations of being smacked down and taking what the feds give them. Being "rebellious" in the US is waving an old flag while paying a 30+% marginal tax rate.
*Belfast (another place I've personally gone to) still has the air of a city kinda on edge, and there are still walled neighborhoods, but the overall vibe of the place is "on edge but expected to play nice because they lost". Rural Northern Ireland is much less overtly political. I was also there in the run up to an election so they might have been touchier than normal.
The important bit about NI is that the British government managed to calm the situation down by actually talking to our version of Hamas in an honest and sincere fashion, and dealt with the real issues that provided so much of its support; and of course our version of Hamas also helped by revealing that it was actually formed of some unpleasant people as well as freedom fighters (in incidents like the McCartney murder and its aftermath, or the emergence of what they did to the likes of Jean McConville). We tried the Israeli approach - or rather the Diet version of the Israeli approach since we didn't actually try to recolonize the Falls Road and the RAF never bombed it - for twenty years with the results that we all know.
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The important bit about NI is that the British government managed to calm the situation down by actually talking to our version of Hamas in an honest and sincere fashion, and dealt with the real issues that provided so much of its support; and of course our version of Hamas also helped by revealing that it was actually formed of some unpleasant people as well as freedom fighters (in incidents like the McCartney murder and its aftermath, or the emergence of what they did to the likes of Jean McConville). We tried the Israeli approach - or rather the Diet version of the Israeli approach since we didn't actually try to recolonize the Falls Road and the RAF never bombed it - for twenty years with the results that we all know.
But did you America bro?
Expect the obvious point you made to be blown right over. If they were amenable to good sense over there they wouldn’t have elected Bill Clinton on huge majorities
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Slugcatcher,
How do you explain Christian, Druze, and secular opposition to Israel in the ME? Are all those religions and political movements anti semites like the Muslims?
The self proclaimed Christians I've met that don't like the Jews are anti-Semites but not to the degree of wanting a final solution as the Muslims do. None of them could tell me why they hated Jews to begin with other than, "they killed Jesus" and "They control all the money". I've never met any Druze, but I'd bet they wouldn't last too long once the Muslims take over Israel. You're going to throw secular opposition into this? That would be similar to considering the opinion of flat earthers on how NASA should be run. Most of the secularists I've met don't care. The few that do are rabid anti-Semites and mostly agree with the Muslims on how to deal with Jews. When I ask them about their Jew hate it's, "they murder babies" or "they control the banks".
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The self proclaimed Christians I've met that don't like the Jews are anti-Semites but not to the degree of wanting a final solution as the Muslims do. None of them could tell me why they hated Jews to begin with other than, "they killed Jesus" and "They control all the money". I've never met any Druze, but I'd bet they wouldn't last too long once the Muslims take over Israel. You're going to throw secular opposition into this? That would be similar to considering the opinion of flat earthers on how NASA should be run. Most of the secularists I've met don't care. The few that do are rabid anti-Semites and mostly agree with the Muslims on how to deal with Jews. When I ask them about their Jew hate it's, "they murder babies" or "they control the banks".
Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel. Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside Christians.
I think your appeal to personal experience is manufactured, given what I’ve known of these people
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The important bit about NI is that the British government managed to calm the situation down by actually talking to our version of Hamas in an honest and sincere fashion, and dealt with the real issues that provided so much of its support; and of course our version of Hamas also helped by revealing that it was actually formed of some unpleasant people as well as freedom fighters (in incidents like the McCartney murder and its aftermath, or the emergence of what they did to the likes of Jean McConville). We tried the Israeli approach - or rather the Diet version of the Israeli approach since we didn't actually try to recolonize the Falls Road and the RAF never bombed it - for twenty years with the results that we all know.
I confess to not being an expert on the Troubles or what you guys did to fix it. It obviously seems to have been reasonably successful so far. So, cool. My comment was specifically in response to the resident commie's question. As far as I know Northern Ireland is still part of the UK despite "power sharing" agreements and the nationalists are expected to live with that. Although I can't claim to know enough about Irish politics to even have an opinion on the various parties I saw advertised in a Northern Ireland election. I can say from experience that some locals are still pretty touchy about it.
I would be pretty leery of drawing too many parallels between the Irish cultures involved in the Troubles and the Arab (and other) cultures involved in the Mid East.
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Yes, I have read it and no, I have never lived in the ME.
My point about its hypocrisy is that he criticizes the Arab ruling class for being tribal, for focusing on the state as a means of self-enrichment and their ruthlessness without ever acknowledging that we (first the UK but then the wider West) have actively supported that sort on almost each and every occasion where their rule has been seriously challenged. If a movement turns up that threatens to modernize the country - which will inevitably reduce the power of its rulers - then they stomp on it, and we help them.
Well, with a couple of exceptions there hasn't been much modernizing in the present day ME. The US turning away from a couple ME despots who weren't particularly steeped in radical Islam hasn't worked out so well since those places are in chaos.
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Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel. Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside Christians.
I think your appeal to personal experience is manufactured, given what I’ve known of these people
(https://i.imgur.com/W6G6S6i.jpg)
Ya'll are marching right into DeS's line of fire. Just saying.
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Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel. Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside Christians.
I think your appeal to personal experience is manufactured, given what I’ve known of these people
Um, yes Druze do live in Israel, serve in the IDF and are in the Israeli legislature:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze_in_Israel
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Well, with a couple of exceptions there hasn't been much modernizing in the present day ME. The US turning away from a couple ME despots who weren't particularly steeped in radical Islam hasn't worked out so well since those places are in chaos.
That is my point, though. The places in chaos in the Arab region itself are Iraq (formerly ruled by a Ba'athist), Syria (currently mostly ruled by Ba'athists or the SDF / Opposition), Libya (formerly ruled by whatever Gaddafi claimed to be) and Yemen (formerly "socialist" / Arab nationalist). There are also significant problems in Egypt (formerly a military dictatorship, briefly replaced by a democracy, now a military dictatorship again) and Lebanon (at times a democracy).
They are all places where something other than the "traditional" Islamist rule that Pryce-Jones claims to attack has been in force or attempted, and when we have intervened we have invariably intervened on the side of traditional Islamist rule (and increasingly against Iranian influence, despite Iran being far more of a democracy and a much freer society than Saudi Arabia is). In fact the only occasions on which we have seriously gone after fundamentalist Sunni regimes are in Afghanistan (after extreme provocation) and against IS (again after repeated terror attacks in the West, and execution of Western hostages - and even then you could make the argument that we only got properly involved when Saudi Arabia itself was threatened).
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Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel. Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside Christians.
I think your appeal to personal experience is manufactured, given what I’ve known of these people
Can the "mate" crap. No need to be a derogatory ass. Never met any Druze and don't know where they live but I'll be they don't live in ISIS territory.
Calling me a liar does not help support your argument although I am surprised it wasn't your first response. Stay classy chap.
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I confess to not being an expert on the Troubles or what you guys did to fix it. It obviously seems to have been reasonably successful so far. So, cool. My comment was specifically in response to the resident commie's question. As far as I know Northern Ireland is still part of the UK despite "power sharing" agreements and the nationalists are expected to live with that. Although I can't claim to know enough about Irish politics to even have an opinion on the various parties I saw advertised in a Northern Ireland election. I can say from experience that some locals are still pretty touchy about it.
I would be pretty leery of drawing too many parallels between the Irish cultures involved in the Troubles and the Arab (and other) cultures involved in the Mid East.
I wouldn't, especially when it comes to what the Israelis under Bibi are actually doing.
The lesson of the past ten years is pretty clear - if you go down the route of negotiation, limited co-operation and non-violence as Fatah have in the West Bank, you get worse than nothing; if you resist and fight back as Hamas have you at least get acknowledged and the settlements do not get built on your land. I defy anyone to explain why a peace process is likely (or even that Hamas will lose power) when firing rockets instead of talking is rewarded like that.
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Slugcatcher,
How do you explain Christian, Druze, and secular opposition to Israel in the ME? Are all those religions and political movements anti semites like the Muslims?
BBBBBBBWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhAhahahahahaha
*snort*
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
*gasp* *snort*
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Very nice counselor. Let's create a supposition of of whole cloth and use it as the basis of our argument. Please don't tell me you do this in court ?? I guess all of your clients, guilty or not, end up with lengthy prison sentences, do they not ??
Do you mean Christians like the ones massacred by Jews in Sinjar ?? Or the Yazidi trapped by Jews on that mountain in Northern Iraq ??
And then the Drize who are only banned from living in two countries in the ME. Israel and Syria (Because the nominally Muslim Syrian Alewites, see "the Assads" who rule Syria, hate everyone not Alewites). Yes, both nations hate the Druze (and Christians) sooooo much they are prohibited to serve in their military.
Of course it's the exact opposite what I wrote above. Christians and Druze enjoy full rights and protections in Israel (same as Arabs and Jews). Israel (and too a certain extent Syria) is/are pluralistic and secular states that allow freedom of religion. Christians and Druze in Israel live in harmony with everyone else and know that they will not be slaughtered simply because of their beliefs (or for any other reason).
Try again.
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Amy, that is complete hogwash. Palestinians of any religion do NOT have the same rights as others in Israel, and the Christians and Druze vocally oppose the Israeli government:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5146653/Abbas-aide-warns-Jerusalem-harm-US-Mideast.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5146653/Abbas-aide-warns-Jerusalem-harm-US-Mideast.html)
Last night, Palestinian Christians gathered in Bethlehem and burned placards featuring Trump's likeness and 'Jerusalem, Palestine's heart, is not up to negotiations,' written on them.
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Can the "mate" crap. No need to be a derogatory ass. Never met any Druze and don't know where they live but I'll be they don't live in ISIS territory.
Calling me a liar does not help support your argument although I am surprised it wasn't your first response. Stay classy chap.
That’s a good point - no other religions are welcome in ISIS territory. And yet the Israelis had a close relationship with ISIS and backed them in Syria. The “caliph” of ISIS was an Israeli informer.
I wonder why that freedom loving democracy would be working with Isis?
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Ummm, Israeli Arabs* are afforded the same rights as Jews, Druze, Christians, and any others in Israel.
And 10 guys (who say they are Palestinian, not necessarily Christians) burning some posters does not represent "all" Palestinian Christians (if they even are Christians).
And someone is voting for Israeli Arabs...
The number of Arab MKs jumped from 12 to 17, in part because the parties making up the Joint List’s numbers went up from 10 to 13, and also because the Likud and Zionist Union each added an Arab lawmaker.
(bolding mine)
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-Elections/The-20th-Knesset-by-the-numbers-More-Arab-and-female-MKs-fewer-ultra-Orthodox-lawmakers-394305
*- Except they are exempt from the draft/compulsory military service, though they can volunteer. I also count three Druze and at least one Christian MK.
So DeSelby, how many Jews and Christians are part of governments in other ME countries ??
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Amy,
There aren’t many other countries that have elections there. Where they do:
Lebanon has Christians and Druze in Government
Iran has Zoroastrians and Jews in Government.
You make a good point about the protests not necessarily being representative - tell you what, can you cite one single Arab Christian or other group in Israel that publicly states it has equal rights? Have you read what these Arab lawmakers are actually saying? (That is, when they’re not responding to calls in parliament to kick them out?)
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Mate, the Druze don’t live in Israel. Yet they survive among all these purported intolerant muslims, alongside Christians.
Hello?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze
As a religious minority in every country they live in, they have frequently experienced persecution, except in Lebanon and Israel where Druze judges, parliamentarians, diplomats, and doctors occupy the highest echelons of society.
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Hello?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druze
While that is true (they do live there, I’ve only spotted that I wrote they didn’t just now), they aren’t equal to Jewish members of that country.
https://972mag.com/who-gets-to-vote-in-israels-democracy/58756/ (https://972mag.com/who-gets-to-vote-in-israels-democracy/58756/)
And
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.710712 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.710712)
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Hmm....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Knesset (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Knesset)
Edited to clean up link. -adively
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While that is true (they do live there, I’ve only spotted that I wrote they didn’t just now), they aren’t equal to Jewish members of that country.
https://972mag.com/who-gets-to-vote-in-israels-democracy/58756/ (https://972mag.com/who-gets-to-vote-in-israels-democracy/58756/)
Utter Bullshit. Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel. If you remember Israel pulled out of Gaza and the West Bank giving them to the Palastinians (the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza)
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.710712 (https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.710712)
Sorry, I'm not going to pay for a subscription, but the first line in that story is:
The resolution, reached after years of slaughter in Syria and advanced by Assad-supporting council members, strengthens criticism of bias against the council.
Seems to me that it's Muslim Arabs that are oppressing (and killing, based on the word "Slaughter") Druze, not Israel, and not Jews. You don't get to be Doctors, Lawyers, Judges and MK in Israel if the Jews are "slaughter"ing you or "oppressing" you.
Might there be some bias against Arabs, Christians, and Druze in Israel ?? I'm sure there are some people (Jews, Christians, Druze, Arabs, and Others) there that are less then tolerant of other "groups". But I bet there are damn few (Jews, Christians, and Druze) that think the "others" should be driven into the sea and or subject to complete genocide....
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Utter Bullshit. Gaza and the West Bank are not part of Israel. If you remember Israel pulled out of Gaza and the West Bank giving them to the Palastinians (the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza)
No, they pulled out of Gaza but continued (and continue) to occupy and build in most of the West Bank (the parts designated "Area C"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_C_(West_Bank) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_C_(West_Bank))