Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: T.O.M. on March 14, 2018, 09:00:39 PM
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One of my former Scouts recently turned 21, and has applied for his CCW permit. Eagle Scout, ROTC cadet, great kid. He has set aside $800, and is looking at buying his first handgun. He has a nice set of long guns (including a sweet Vector carbine crying out for a suppressor). Anyways, he called me looking for recommendations for a 9mm carry gun. Anyways, I'm going to recommend he look at a Glock 19 and the new Smith M&P 2.0 Compact. Anything else I should recommend?
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Those are both good choices. Others in that same size family: Springfield XD, H&K VP9 (used, otherwise $$$), Sig 320, FNS 9 to start. Plenty new and used to choose from and $800 will go a long way in this market.
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Anyways, he called me looking for recommendations for a 9mm carry gun. Anyways, I'm going to recommend he look at a Glock 19 and the new Smith M&P 2.0 Compact. Anything else I should recommend?
Maybe one of the small single stack 9mms. G43/Shield/XDS, etc.
----edit to add---
He's got a realistic budget, anyway. That's good. What I usually see on the web fora is "What gun for $X?", where $X is enough for a tolerable, marginal gun, and nothing else..
With the available cash make sure he gets set up with a good belt, decent holster, bunch-a mags, etc. (This is where Glock stands out. I see some interesting stuff out there from small holster makers. Very short supported gun lists, but Glock is one that is always supported.)
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The CZ P07 and P10C are both excellent guns also. The P07 offers a DA/SA action which differs from what you mentioned. The P10C fits a lot of G19 holsters which are common. Both are affordable. A lot of people seem to like the HK VP9 also though I have never shot it. I have seen M&P 2.0 pistols very cheap. I saw the M&P Compact at a gun show for around $400. FN makes good pistols, but the magazines are expensive.
IMO, there is some value in seeing how each gun fits his hand size and how he shoots it without a lot of adjustment or practice. Since it appears he has enough money, he might want to spend $100 or so renting 2 or 3 of those options and shooting them himself to see which appears to work best for him. (that assumes he doesn't know anyone who has an example he can try) What feels good at the gun counter isn't always the best shooter.
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My other thought, if he is just going to have one pistol for a while, it will be doing double duty as carry and home defense, etc. The basic double stack carry guns would seem to be a good choice. However, what he is most comfortable and confident with is the most important part. He has his whole life to try other guns, experiment, and build up his own collection.
For that matter, for the money he is talking about, one of the 3" or 4" barreled, 7 shot S&W 357 magnum revolvers would be good. I have the 3" barreled, 7-shot S&W and it is handy shooter that isn't too awful big. Ruger has that 5 shot 44 special revolver also.
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Desert Eagle 1911C, maybe? Looks like the 5" weighs almost as much as the Baby Eagle, so you can use it to break through reinforced concrete if your attacker has excellent instincts for finding hard cover.
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Maybe one of the small single stack 9mms. G43/Shield/XDS, etc.
----edit to add---
He's got a realistic budget, anyway. That's good. What I usually see on the web fora is "What gun for $X?", where $X is enough for a tolerable, marginal gun, and nothing else..
With the available cash make sure he gets set up with a good belt, decent holster, bunch-a mags, etc. (This is where Glock stands out. I see some interesting stuff out there from small holster makers. Very short supported gun lists, but Glock is one that is always supported.)
The Shield is another one that seems to have a lot of support in the accessories market. That is a crazy popular gun.
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IMO, there is some value in seeing how each gun fits his hand size and how he shoots it without a lot of adjustment or practice. Since it appears he has enough money, he might want to spend $100 or so renting 2 or 3 of those options and shooting them himself to see which appears to work best for him. (that assumes he doesn't know anyone who has an example he can try) What feels good at the gun counter isn't always the best shooter.
I couldn't agree with you more, having personally bought a handgun based on looks and feel at the counter, only to find that the darned thing bit my hand every time the slide cycled. This is why I came here looking for ideas for him to try out before buying.
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A REAL 9mm...
The 9x32R
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imfdb.org%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F4%2F42%2FS%2526W_Model_19.jpg%2F400px-S%2526W_Model_19.jpg&hash=3d6dbe21f73fc19c74e6e2ed6877541511c27215)
If I were looking for a new 9mm carry gun, I'd likely be looking hard at the Walther PPQ series.
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Mid-sized 9mm has become my go to kind of gun. (along with 1911's, but that's a different thread =D) It's really hard to argue with a mid-sized, striker fired 9 as a good all around pistol.
G19 (obviously)
VP9, yes it's HK, but Buds has them new for $539, so right in the ball park.
PPQ
P320
would be the top of my short list.
XDM and M&P deserve a look as well.
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If I were looking for a new 9mm carry gun, I'd likely be looking hard at the Walther PPQ series.
As a die-hard 1911 guy, it was hard for me to admit that a PPQ was a much better fit in my hand. Just an excellent ergonomic design, and for me, better than any of the other plastic pistols out there that I have shot. I've said many times around here that I think Glocks are great guns, but my 23 just doesn't do it for me, partially because of how it feels in my hand.
I'll never stop carrying 1911s just because, but when I move to America I'll be packing a PPQ a good part of the time. It's always been interesting to me to see some of the hate for the PPQ - I think partially because many consider it "ugly".
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I'm a revolver fan, so a S&W J frame.
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I couldn't agree with you more, having personally bought a handgun based on looks and feel at the counter, only to find that the darned thing bit my hand every time the slide cycled. This is why I came here looking for ideas for him to try out before buying.
The Arex Rex Zero 1 might be another option. It has a larger grip, but it has the DA/SA action with decocker and safety that might be good for a new shooter. Some call it a poor man's Sig P226, but it is a good reliable pistol.
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"but when I move to America I'll be packing a PPQ a good part of the time."
You think we're going to allow you to immigrate?
That's cute. =D
I've only handled one PPQ, and never shot one, but I was extremely impressed with how it fit my hand.
Right now I'm thinking I want a polymer 9mm, primarily as a house gun.
I'm considering one of the new Ruger Security 9s, but I'm also going to be giving the PPQ a very close look. I just wish the PPQ didn't come with the cheese grater in front of the trigger.
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A REAL 9mm...
The 9x32R
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.imfdb.org%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F4%2F42%2FS%2526W_Model_19.jpg%2F400px-S%2526W_Model_19.jpg&hash=3d6dbe21f73fc19c74e6e2ed6877541511c27215)
If I were looking for a new 9mm carry gun, I'd likely be looking hard at the Walther PPQ series.
That MOdel 19 was my carry gun when I was first with the prosecutor's office. Boss said we could carry ".38s" for protection. That was my choice.
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I have 3 Model 19s, a 2.5", a 4", and a 6".
I've carried both the 2.5" and the 4" at various times, mainly in a shoulder holster.
I prefer revolvers for carry, but have been known to carry semi-autos from time to time, primarily my Taurus PT-22 and my P7PSP.
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I'm a revolver fan, so a S&W J frame.
For a first gun, I would suggest a larger frame revolver. I would want them to actually enjoy shooting it. =D
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Balderdash!
It needs to be both as small as possible AND as powerful as possible!
Does anyone make a singleshot derringer in .50 AE?
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I'd suggest whatever name-brand pistol points best in HIS hands.
When I check out a pistol for "pointability" I pick it up with one hand, get a good grip on it, and then - while still holding the pistol down by my waist - I focus my eyes on a target. I close my eyes, and without opening them, bring up the pistol and point it at where I think the target is. Then I open my eyes, and trying not to move the pistol, see where the sights are actually pointing. After repeating this several times, I get a good idea of where a particular gun naturally points in my hand.
The BHP, Glock, and 1911 platforms work well for me. The Beretta 92 isn't bad, but most SIGs are terrible. YMMV.
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I'd suggest whatever name-brand pistol points best in HIS hands.
When I check out a pistol for "pointability" I pick it up with one hand, get a good grip on it, and then - while still holding the pistol down by my waist - I focus my eyes on a target. I close my eyes, and without opening them, bring up the pistol and point it at where I think the target is. Then I open my eyes, and trying not to move the pistol, see where the sights are actually pointing. After repeating this several times, I get a good idea of where a particular gun naturally points in my hand.
The BHP, Glock, and 1911 platforms work well for me. The Beretta 92 isn't bad, but most SIGs are terrible. YMMV.
Do you think that's because you've a lot of practice with those guns, or is just a function of the design?
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I was just reviewing the specifications on the PPQ and I just realized...
I want one chambered in .32 ACP...
With an 18-or-more-round magazine...
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Springfield XDS in .45 ACP is truly one of the best CCW pistols ever. Small, full power, easy to conceal, easily within your friend's budget.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic20.picturetrail.com%2FVOL1605%2F13747104%2F24801359%2F413813056.jpg&hash=dbae60b66466e4f1987d8f22973ba5136bc86a0d)
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I can't disagree too much. The XDs is a very compact package for what it does and the shootability is good. The Sig P365 might be good also, but I haven't seen one.
There are a number of reasonably good $300 to $400 options from S&W, Ruger, and Canik that would also leave room for lots of ammo and spare magazines as well.
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Do you think that's because you've a lot of practice with those guns, or is just a function of the design?
If I had to put a number on it, I'd say it's about 80% a function of the design and 20% what I'm used to. Pistols I've never owned vary considerably by this test.
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I LOVE my G19! An easily concealable 8 shot single stack from a good manufacturer is a great choice if lighter weight and concealability is high on the list.
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Chris, did you tell him he'd put his eye out? You're supposed to tell him.
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Chris, did you tell him he'd put his eye out? You're supposed to tell him.
That's only if he was getting an official Red Rider carbine with a compass in the stock and the thing that tells time...🤣
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If daily CCW is the main concern a G26 is hard to beat. Don't let the lack of pinky support fool you, it's merely psychological. It shoots just as well (and has equal round capacity if needed) as the larger versions but conceals far better. DO NOT put a pinky extension on it!
In second place a Sig P365 would be worth looking at, G43 profile but carries ten rounds flush. However given Sig's recent track record, I would wait for it to be in the wild for a year or two to see all the bugs pop up and be solved.
In the long run you will only continuously carry what is easy and convenient so go as small as is practical.
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If daily CCW is the main concern a G26 is hard to beat. Don't let the lack of pinky support fool you, it's merely psychological. It shoots just as well (and has equal round capacity if needed) as the larger versions but conceals far better. DO NOT put a pinky extension on it!
Looked at G26s and 27s 3 or 4 months back. I thought the grip was pretty awful short. Shorter than that of my XD subcompact or XDS. YMMV, try before you buy. One of the few times I would be looking into baseplate extenders.
(May yet end up getting one, if this stupid state ends up with a 10 round mag limit after all the shenanigans in Springfield. <spit>.)
In the long run you will only continuously carry what is easy and convenient so go as small as is practical.
CCW is relatively new here. My practice is evolving, and size is creeping up. LCP briefly, 642 for a long while, XDS now.
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Looked at G26s and 27s 3 or 4 months back. I thought the grip was pretty awful short. Shorter than that of my XD subcompact or XDS. YMMV, try before you buy. One of the few times I would be looking into baseplate extenders.
(May yet end up getting one, if this stupid state ends up with a 10 round mag limit after all the shenanigans in Springfield. <spit>.)
CCW is relatively new here. My practice is evolving, and size is creeping up. LCP briefly, 642 for a long while, XDS now.
That's funny. I started with a full-size, and went down to the XDs.
For me, the hard part about having a short grip on a gun wasn't the shooting. It was having such a short handle to grab onto, in the draw. I don't worry about it anymore, as I got used to it, but I think it does take a little practice.
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My first thought is that a full grip would be best for a new shooter. I think something in the G19 size range would be the way to go. In addition, if this is the only gun owned rather than just for CCW, 15 round capacity is just better all around.
I have one or two guns with the smaller grips. They do shoot okay, but I still find it a big uncomfortable.
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According to the OP, this is not his first gun.
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According to the OP, this is not his first gun.
According to the OP, it is his first handgun.
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According to the OP, it is his first handgun.
Correct!
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Your initial recommendations were great. My suggestions in order of preference and depending on if he is willing to dress around his gun or not:
G19 or G43
M&P9 or Shield
[Long gap]
Whatever current manufacture Ruger/Springfield/FN/HK/CZ/Walther/SIG.
They'll all be okay with their own drawbacks. Most will be pretty reliable and pretty accurate and within his price range, but as his first (and currently only) handgun I'd want to see him go with something quality that has a good chance of being supported with holsters, sights, magazines, spare parts, duplicate guns, etc for the foreseeable future. Nothing else competes with Glock or S&W (in that order) when it comes to US handgun adoption and aftermarket support. The import/manufacture numbers available from the ATF show that very, very clearly.
Considering semi-auto pistols only in 2016:
Glock manufactured 368,140 handguns in the US and imported another ~1.2 or 1.3 million from Austria.
S&W manufactured 1,429,451 in 2016 with a big chunk of those M&P series and Shields.
Ruger built 1,010,236 but most of those were .22s.
Sig Sauer USA built 580,588 pistols
Springfield manufactured 72,013 and imported about half a million XD models.
All the German companies combined (HK, Walther, J. G. Anschütz, etc) imported about half a million and had minimal US manufacturing.
CZ-USA built 9,787 and imported approximately a hundred thousand.
FN imported about 25,000
As you've discovered for yourself, even "big name" manufacturers like SIG will sometimes arbitrarily drop all factory support for a gun without warning. I don't see that happening anytime soon with the G19 or M&P9.
All of the above assumes he's a shooter, not just a gun owner. If he is a non-shooting gun owner then it literally doesn't matter. He can buy a gun, maybe an extra magazine or two if it doesn't already have one and some sort of holster. Add a couple boxes of ammo and he'll be set for the next few years ... if not for life. With most gun owners, they'll never have to replace the sights, never need to buy another magazine, never break a part on their gun, almost never carry so they won't really care if their holster works well. For those folks, it doesn't matter how snowflake unicorn their gun is because they don't use it enough to matter. The up side to never using them is that they get to repeat over and over that it "never jams" and "never breaks".
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Just got home from meeting up with Jake (my Scout from the OP) at the local gun shop/indoor range. I had my Glock 19 (1st generation of the 19) and my Sig P225A1. Jake brought his father's Beretta 92A1 (which is what his father told him to buy). The range is owned by a friend of mine. When I filled him in on what we were up to, he took an XD, a 4th Gen Glock 19, an M&P 2.0 Compact, and a Walther PPQ. Charged the price of a single rental, and I paid. After shooting them all, Jake will be buying tomorrow a 5th Gen Glock 19 with night sights, three mags (for a total of six), a rail light, a kydex IWB holster, mag pouch, and an instructor belt (sorry, don't recall the brand on the carry gear). Shop owner gave him the military price on everything, so it's going to cost him $700. Why the Glock?
First, he didn't like the DA/SA trigger of my SIG and his father's Beretta. I get that.
Second, he didn't like the feel of the XD and Smith as mush as the Glock and PPQ.
Third, he liked how the PPQ felt, but between the price of the pistol and the price of mags, he couldn't afford four additional mags (the Glock came with 3, the PPQ came with 2) and the rail light (which he really wanted), and the quality carry gear.
I think he made a good choice. But I also see him saving up and getting a smaller pistol after he tries carrying this one all summer.
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Cool. Regardless, it is a reliable pistol that will give him good service for a long time. Glad he is getting all the accessories and mags up front.
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Cordex, excellent advice and I agree with all of it, FWIW.
Chris, Jake made a good decision and I think that gear will serve him well for many years. Is he planning on taking a class anytime soon?
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Good choice, but I'm rather surprised that he didn't also decide to buy the rail mounted deep fryer.
Nothing is worse than being in a gun fight and suddenly feeling snackish...
Regarding magazine prices... holy crap, I didn't realize that the PPQ magazines were that expensive. I think that may have a significant bearing on my choice of a new semi-auto, although Security-9 magazines aren't cheap, either.
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Jake will be buying tomorrow a 5th Gen Glock 19 with night sights, three mags (for a total of six), a rail light, a kydex IWB holster, mag pouch, and an instructor belt (sorry, don't recall the brand on the carry gear).
Why the Glock?
Plenty of time later to meander through revolvers, cheap guns, weird guns, etc.
I think he made a good choice.
I do too.
But I also see him saving up and getting a smaller pistol after he tries carrying this one all summer.
Just one gun? No such thing.
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Glock 19 or S&W M&P 9C...
...or spend 10k+ on guns,holsters, and training only to come back to the same conclusion later.
G43 or M&P shield are solid single stack compact choices.
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Jake took his CCW class already, using a rental Glock 17. The place we went last night offers a series of classes, and Jake took the flier. He'll take more classes, because it's his personality.
On the price of mags, it seems like Glock has the corner on cheap handgun mags, between them and the Plays. Kind of pushing me towards another Glock, or a 1911 for my next buy.