Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on June 23, 2018, 02:02:02 PM
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Does The Collective have any experience, opinions or data on using birdshot in a home defense shotgun?
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It will, in all likelyhood, make a mess of any Bad Guy's day, though probably just by bloodying him up and stalling him long enough for you to find a more suitable means of defense.
Seriously... at home defense ranges a high dram heavy field load of #6 or #7 bird shot will be pretty darned effective. Even though it may not have the penetration potential of heavier shot it'll still pack one helluva punch, enough to get you a chance at more effective means.
Buck is still preferred for a dedicated HD gun, but if bird shot is all you have then it beats throwing rocks.
Brad
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Should work, probably not lethal in most cases, will need to replace glass items and patch drywall if you touch it off indoors. OTOH, if you cut off the top of the shell and pour hot wax into it you will have a slug that will become birdshot upon hitting something. At least it would minimize collateral damage. ;)
As long as you know the limitations of birdshot and work within them and are willing to accept them I don't see why not. One thing for sure, you probably won't be penetrating any interior walls at across the room distances.
bob
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I'd rather (and do) use this than bird shot:
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/hevi-shot-hevi-duty-close-combat-home-defense-shotshell-ammo
Back in the day, before they went "tactical" with the name, it was called "Dead Coyote", and that is in fact the name of the stuff in my HD shotgun.
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I'd rather (and do) use this than bird shot:
https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/hevi-shot-hevi-duty-close-combat-home-defense-shotshell-ammo
Back in the day, before they went "tactical" with the name, it was called "Dead Coyote", and that is in fact the name of the stuff in my HD shotgun.
And if you can find a Dead Coyote choke to put on your shotgun it will keep a very tight pattern. Between the T shot and a Dead Coyote choke I would be comfortable taking 'yotes out to about 75yds.
bob
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No. Just no. Birdshot is for birds. There have been numerous tests done with Birdshot (Like Box o' Truth) that shows that it fairly ineffective, especially if the target is wearing clothing.
00 Buck or slugs or even better, a home defense round as Ben mentioned. Leave the birdshot for birds.
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https://www.basspro.com/shop/en/hevi-shot-hevi-duty-close-combat-home-defense-shotshell-ammo
CA WARNING -- Ammunition.
CA WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. Discharging firearms in poorly ventilated areas, cleaning firearms, or handling ammunition may result in exposure to lead and other substances known to cause birth defects, reproductive harm, and other serious physical injury. Have adequate ventilation at all times. Wash hands thoroughly after exposure.
So ammunition can be bad for your health. Good to know.
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I always used #4 buck. Big enough but not TOO big.
There is always THIS little wonder...https://www.full30.com/video/60508e64f16c91fae812bb532f2b96c1
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I think if one is in a position of having to shoot a home invader, I would not want him coming around later or a few years later with a monumental grudge. Use what will put him in the ground.
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Birdshot is for birds - small birdshot is specified for SMALL birds (grouse, quail, etc.) and not large birds (turkey). Though I won't volunteer to stand in front of even a little .410 loaded with skeet ammo, if I were using a shotgun for self defense, I'd use 00 or 000 buck.
Think about this - if your assailant is a 6'5" 300 lb steroid pumped bad guy in full leathers with a handful of PCP up his nose, do you REALLY want to use something that's considered suitable for quail but NOT recommended for a 20 lb. turkey? Would even a load designed for a 20 lb turkey be suitable for something 15 times bigger and a LOT meaner?
(Didn't the lawyer Dick Cheney shot in the face with birdshot survive the experience?)
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(Didn't the lawyer Dick Cheney shot in the face with birdshot survive the experience?)
Yeah, but it usually takes a stake through the heart or sunlight to put down a lawyer. =)
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This popped up on my Tube of U today: Thunder Ranch, the truth about terminal ballistics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4sVQ_ZwI04).
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Yeah, but it usually takes a stake through the heart or sunlight to put down a lawyer. =)
Bwaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaa
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I keep my 870 loaded with the Remington Managed Recoil buckshot. It's 00 Buck, 8 pellets per shell. I like the reduced recoil, especially since (1) I might need to fire from my left shoulder, which is very recoil sensitive since I damaged it pretty badly in 2015, and (2) inside my house, I probably won'e be firing from a textbook stance.
I remember reading years ago that the key with respect to shot size and defensive use depends entirely on the range. At close rage (think across the bed) shot size is probably irrelevant. The load will barely spread, and you'll end up with a really messy single wound I once heard described as a rat hole (think about a rat chewing its way through something). Extend the range to the longer (longest in my home would be around 12 yards) and you start to get spread. With spread, you start to see lighter and smaller shot penetrate less, which negatively impacts stopping power. So larger, heavier pellets penetrate better, helping stopping power.
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Use buck. I like #4 buck because out of two of my short guns it is minute of bad guy at seven yards. Like every minute on the target. I also like 00 and slugs. I like slugs too much probably, takes the scatter right out of scattergun, but they get things done.
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As others have said, birdshot is for birds. My home defense shotgun is stoked with Federal Flite-Control 00 buck. The last round in the tube is a 3" magnum slug. I figure it's an audible and tactile reminder to "RELOAD STUPID!" That plus if for whatever reason 6 rounds of 00 buck doesn't stop it, hopefully the slug will.
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The responses here seem to assume a human target. Perhaps the OP is concerned about a feathered fiend. An avian assailant. A bloodthirsty bird.
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As others have said, birdshot is for birds. My home defense shotgun is stoked with Federal Flite-Control 00 buck. The last round in the tube is a 3" magnum slug. I figure it's an audible and tactile reminder to "RELOAD STUPID!" That plus if for whatever reason 6 rounds of 00 buck doesn't stop it, hopefully the slug will.
Sound logic, but the last round being dragons breath would also fulfill that function. Talk about protective fire. I just, but somewhere there is a story about a cop who was screwing around with the things and left them in the gun. That his wife grabbed to shoot someone coming in the window. Hilarity ensued.
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Military and LEO don’t use birdshot. Gotta be a reason. 😉
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Lots of good thoughts here, but I would ask a question in reply. What are proponents of defensive birdshot seeking from that ammunition selection?
If I had no superior shotgun ammunition I would go with it, but otherwise I stick with 00 or slug.
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Lots of good thoughts here, but I would ask a question in reply. What are proponents of defensive birdshot seeking from that ammunition selection?
If I had no superior shotgun ammunition I would go with it, but otherwise I stick with 00 or slug.
I won't speak for Millcreek, but my guess for many people is unwanted penetration. Something I had to consider during my previous 20 years of thin walled condo dwelling. Also one of the reasons I went with Dead Coyote, with the thinking that the T size shot + frangible qualities would be an adequate compromise.
Admittedly, it begs the question that if you're worried about penetrating walls with your shotgun rounds, you should also have the same worry with your +P 9mm pistol rounds.
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Lots of good thoughts here, but I would ask a question in reply. What are proponents of defensive birdshot seeking from that ammunition selection?
If I had no superior shotgun ammunition I would go with it, but otherwise I stick with 00 or slug.
I don't think anybody here is a proponent of birdshot. It's just a matter of looking at the pluses and minuses of "if that's all ya got" and where the kid's bedroom is.
For myself, I was surprised (circa mid 1970s) at how much damage an ounce of 7 1/2 shot moving at around 1200 feet per second can do to a 2 X 4 at about ten feet*. An ounce of almost anything at 10 feet and around --call it 1200 f/s --is pretty ummm.... shall we say, "impacty"?
Terry, 230RN
* Full-choke 30" barrel, upland game load. I doubt that it's much different regardless of choke or barrel length, but I only did this one time, that one time to verify my theory that "I wouldn't want to be standing in front of it." At least not at a distance of 0.8 living rooms.
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I think being on the receiving end a high-brass load of No. 4 shot would ruin somebody's day. (That's a turkey load, ain't it?) But it might not stop a determined attacker. OTOH it might, and if that's what you got...
No. 4 buckshot would be *much* better. I think those are .22" pellets.
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The responses here seem to assume a human target. Perhaps the OP is concerned about a feathered fiend. An avian assailant. A bloodthirsty bird.
(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/primeval/images/a/a6/4x7_TerrorBirdAttacksMatt.png/revision/latest?cb=20140215164247)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHmI6YPovyg
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I won't speak for Millcreek, but my guess for many people is unwanted penetration. Something I had to consider during my previous 20 years of thin walled condo dwelling. Also one of the reasons I went with Dead Coyote, with the thinking that the T size shot + frangible qualities would be an adequate compromise.
Admittedly, it begs the question that if you're worried about penetrating walls with your shotgun rounds, you should also have the same worry with your +P 9mm pistol rounds.
As you implied your last point, I have yet to see a cartridge capable of providing worthwhile and reliable performance against an attacker that can also be stopped or made substantially less dangerous by a typical interior wall. You can pretty much choose one or the other.
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As you implied your last point, I have yet to see a cartridge capable of providing worthwhile and reliable performance against an attacker that can also be stopped or made substantially less dangerous by a typical interior wall. You can pretty much choose one or the other.
I have previously condsidered 40gr .223 hp for that. It is going to explode anything it hits.
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I have previously condsidered 40gr .223 hp for that. It is going to explode anything it hits.
40gr .223 might satisfy the “made substantially less dangerous” but I’m seriously doubtful on the “worthwhile and reliable performance against an attacker”.
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Bird shot is only acceptable in cut shells.
https://youtu.be/AT5nIEazK_4
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaR1EVybUgc
Paul Harrell did a video on bird shot for home defense. He sets up a version of the meat target in this one. He has a number of videos on shotguns and shot shells for defense. The impression I got was that heavier bird shot such as dove loads can be pretty effective, but they will also penetrate at least a couple layers of dry wall pretty good. Practice ammo with smaller shot was not as effective. He shot a version of his meat target with #6 shot and that looked pretty good.
For me, I think I would go with buck shot, but probably the smaller buck shot pellets rather than 000. Right now I have an AK with a 40 round mag of Federal Fusion soft point ammo. I don't own a self defense shotgun.
I have had people tell me that bird shot acts like a slug at very short range. I never believed that otherwise bean bag rounds would go right through someone.
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The impression I got was that heavier bird shot such as dove loads
The dove must be ginormous down your way. :P =D
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I have had people tell me that bird shot acts like a slug at very short range. I never believed that otherwise bean bag rounds would go right through someone.
Bean bag rounds are traveling at roughly 250 FPS. High brass or game load shot shells exit the barrel at 1200+ FPS. Big difference.
Brad
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Bean bag rounds are traveling at roughly 250 FPS. High brass or game load shot shells exit the barrel at 1200+ FPS. Big difference.
Brad
True, but it still doesn't act like a slug. =D
Honestly, I am not sure what the benefit would be for slugs for home defense over buck shot. The only thing I can think of is penetrating a barrier of some kind like armor or a wall. It would be interesting to see a wall penetration test for slugs after it went through a gel block.
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While still using a shotgun for HD I settled on 12ga Fiocchi LE Reduced Recoil Tactical Buckshot. Shotguns are not something I use very often and I was only interested in finding what worked best without punishing myself needlessly. I found this load to have low recoil, nearly identical to your standard 2 3/4 birdshot game load, and pattern very tight out of a cylinder bore 18" barrel. At ~12 yards it would keep all pellets on a paper plate from my gun. It made the "Military Grade" 00 buckshot look like a bad joke. Although my plans for us to rally around the shotgun as a home defense weapon of choice did not materialize I would still consider this a great option because of the recoil characteristics. No one laughs at 9 pellets of 00 buck and it's no more expensive than a premium pistol caliber self defense round.
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The responses here seem to assume a human target. Perhaps the OP is concerned about a feathered fiend. An avian assailant. A bloodthirsty bird.
The Penguin!
(https://13thdimension.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/tumblr_lvwhfuINJl1qje60io2_r1_500.png)
ETA: seriously, I'm impressed with your alliteration. Did you steal it from the old (Adam West) Batman series, or make it up yourself? It's good either way.
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I still hold that the shotgun can be the superior home defense option, in certain circumstances. For example, if you live in a quiet, lake-side community, and some cool blond from the big city shows up - load up with bird-shot, and keep your weapon handy.
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Military and LEO don’t use birdshot. Gotta be a reason. 😉
Military and LEO don't really use Shotguns anymore and there is a reason. Jus' Sayn'
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Ladies and Germans, I give you... The Frangible JB Weld slug!
https://youtu.be/zk73wFTL4Ug
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Ran across this during lunch. Decent comparison of 00 buck, #4, and #7 at what I would consider a typical home defense distance. Boomstick looks to probably be using a cylinder bore 18.5" barrel. Neither scientific nor controlled, but enough to show relative terminal effects, at least in terms of impact and pattern.
https://youtu.be/uERIjpiBvog?t=278
Essential takeaway is that at close range, all pack a serious punch. Heavier shot will have more penetrating power, obviously, but the birdshot is nothing to sneer at.
Brad
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Ran across this during lunch. Decent comparison of 00 buck, #4, and #7 at what I would consider a typical home defense distance. Boomstick looks to probably be using a cylinder bore 18.5" barrel. Neither scientific nor controlled, but enough to show relative terminal effects, at least in terms of impact and pattern.
https://youtu.be/uERIjpiBvog?t=278
Essential takeaway is that at close range, all pack a serious punch. Heavier shot will have more penetrating power, obviously, but the birdshot is nothing to sneer at.
Brad
That video actually punctuates what I was about to mention.
From a shotgun setup properly, at home defense ranges, buckshot makes such a tight pattern that it dispels all the stupid myths about using buckshot, shotguns, and birdshot for HD.
Part of what makes buck so effective is that it's 9 .38 cal pellets at 1200fps impacting an area smaller than the size of your fist under 10 yards.
Birdshot...how much does a number 8 pellet weigh? They're smaller than the bb's from a bb gun for crying out loud.
Would it suck? Sure. But it's designed for hunting birds not people. Right tool, right job.
Buy an actual HD shotgun, or a barrel for your shotgun for HD. They're cheap.
Practice.
Load it with the appropriate ammo.
Birdshot for HD as an idea should go the way of the tactical wheelbarrow, debarked chihuahuas, and serpa holsters.
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Having been hit in the side with a heavy hunting coat on with just a few pellets penetration sucks at range. Having seen a guy hit point blank in the face bird shot will f someone's day.
Jim
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My shotgun is loaded with 0000 buck and slugs. Alternating. Just me and the wife. If something goes down I won’t be worried about her. She will be behind me.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Nonsense. Bird shot at "contact" distance through a full choke shotgun will hit as one projectile. I've blown several 2x4's in half with one shell. I've said this for *years*, look at my history. Now, what do I keep in my shotgun? 2 3/4" 00 Buck. I'm in my own home now, so things/circumstances have changed. I'm no longer in an apartment and not terribly worried about over-penetration.
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If only bad guys would allow me to shoot them at contact distance. ;/
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Military and LEO don't really use Shotguns anymore and there is a reason. Jus' Sayn'
actually they do. And they don’t use birdshot. But feel free to use what ever your little heart desires. 😏
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actually they do. And they don’t use birdshot. But feel free to use what ever your little heart desires. 😏
I think you'll find that the non-breeching use of shotguns in the military is pretty limited, and getting rarer. We use 00 Buck when issued shotguns.
LEO seems to be following suit and moving away from shotguns for lethal long arm purposes.
My point is not that a shotgun won't work for HD, it demonstrably will. But if you're going to look at .mil/LEO shotgun ammo as an indicator of what you should use, it's worth noting that they don't really use shotguns for that purpose at all anymore.
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Yeah. Because police are switching to the AR15/M4 platform and issuing it wholesale or loosening standards to carry it. Because they're prepping for active shooting response.
But if we're talking HD, measure all the angles in your house. Let's say the average 4 member family home is 2500sqft and two stories.
The longest distance in a house like that will be about 15yards.
The average spread of buckshot at that distance will be 5-10 inches give or take.
This is where the shotgun shines. When fed the right ammo.
How about this little shooting test.
http://www.guns.com/review/birdshot-vs-buckshot-why-birdshot-is-never-better-for-home-defense/
His conclusion is that because of the quickly opening pattern of birdshot it's more dangerous for home defense. You're more likely to get pellets off target.
My conclusion? Birdshot is for birds and serpa holster wearing tools who bloviate on internet forums about overpenetration and contact distance wound patterns.
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I think the biggest benefit of the AR is that the rifle is light and easy to shoot for the performance expected of typical police use. It is easy to teach a novice to shoot with reasonable accuracy and speed from short range out to 50 yards or so. Not to say that shotguns are hard to use, I just think the AR is easier. The low recoil and ergonomics allow most people to comfortably put rounds on target pretty fast and keep repeating that shot even with moving targets.
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I think the biggest benefit of the AR is that the rifle is light and easy to shoot for the performance expected of typical police use. It is easy to teach a novice to shoot with reasonable accuracy and speed from short range out to 50 yards or so. Not to say that shotguns are hard to use, I just think the AR is easier. The low recoil and ergonomics allow most people to comfortably put rounds on target pretty fast and keep repeating that shot even with moving targets.
You mean Joe Biden doesn't know what he's talking about? Yeah, right. ;/
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You mean Joe Biden doesn't know what he's talking about? Yeah, right. ;/
You just want him to stand behind you again..... =D
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Mossberg® 500 Special Purpose 20-Ga. Tactical Pump-Action Shotgun FTW
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If that's what I had at the time, I'd use it, but it's not my first choice. The close range would likely do something to make up for the lighter shot, but I wouldn't count on that.
My home shotgun is loaded with 4 rounds of Remington No. 4 buck, with 5 rounds of CZ Double 0 buck (12 pellets, not 9 as in most standard loads) in reserve.