Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: just Warren on July 16, 2018, 11:29:16 PM
-
It is a tragic situation. (https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/15-old-girl-dies-mistaking-230847832.html)
I'm not trying to make light of it at all.
The packaging is not distinctive, true, but shouldn't the girl have made sure?
I can't come to a conclusion on this one.
I do know though, that the company is going to pay out some amount here regardless of actual fault.
-
While tragic, this is the kid's fault.
15 is old enough to know one is allergic, and pay attention. Yes, the packaging is similar, but if you have a severe allergy it's on you to be double sure.
Not to mention, after the first bite, she should have noticed they tasted weird compared to her "safe" cookies.
My heart goes out to her family, but it's not the world's job to nerf itself for everyone.
-
Tough one. I can't decide on the present info. Part of a decision would be if the company had other complaints on this kind of thing (not necessarily fatal). Apart from any officially reported to medical authorites, we'd have to check direct complaints by shutting off all power to the company so they couldn't use their shredders. (Not really meant to be funny.)
I'd also like to know for sure if the kids were involved in any mind altering drugs which might have contributed to a confusion as to which product it was. That might be even harder to discover.
-
If you have a life-threatening allergy, it is on you to ensure you don't expose yourself to the allergen.
It is a very sad situation, but "the package looked like a safe one" is a pretty poor indicator of whether it is "safe". You need to read the package.
If the package is gone, you need to not eat it. I know 15 year olds make bad decisions, and this is a horrific result for the family, but I can't blame the company on this one.
-
I'm severely allergic to walnuts, same kind of reaction as many people have to peanuts.
I've always been VERY careful to read packages on products that may traditionally contain walnuts and avoid the same kind of products at bake sales and pot lucks.
I did screw up once when I was about this girl's age, and I paid for it. Not with my life, but I was one sick pup for a day or two.
-
Not to sound cold, but how could you not see the big "Reese's" emblem in the top right corner? That alone is pretty self-evident even if the packaging is otherwise identical.
Agree that it's not the manufacturer's fault. I might even go a step further and heap a fair dose of fault on the parents, or at least her mother. It sounds a lot like she was being led to choose by general appearance rather than specific ingredient. Not good, especially when it's associated with a life-threatening allergy.
Brad
-
Not to sound cold, but how could you not see the big "Reese's" emblem in the top right corner? That alone is pretty self-evident even if the packaging is otherwise identical.
The argument is that once the package is open, the label is hidden from view.
I agree that the child and/or parents are at fault, not the manufacturer.
-
The argument is that once the package is open, the label is hidden from view.
I agree that the child and/or parents are at fault, not the manufacturer.
And if all the cookies had been removed from packaging and laid out on a plate?
I blame the parents. They apparently led the girl to believe that these cookies were "safe," based on appearance. She was old enough to read. She should have been taught to not touch unless she could read the label and verify that the item was peanut-free.
-
Here's what shocked me in this story... The girl has this severe allergy, yet she's not carrying her own epi pen. I've known other kids, even younger, who carry a pen for that reason. I've taken training on using a pen because of kids in my Scout units or on my sports teams. Can't understand why she didn't have her own. Might have made a difference, as it could have been administered a lot faster.
-
Do you need an Rx to get an epinephrine pen?
-
Here's what shocked me in this story... The girl has this severe allergy, yet she's not carrying her own epi pen. I've known other kids, even younger, who carry a pen for that reason. I've taken training on using a pen because of kids in my Scout units or on my sports teams. Can't understand why she didn't have her own. Might have made a difference, as it could have been administered a lot faster.
I know when we go to Scout Camp, that is the one medication that a Scout is allowed (actually required) to keep with him at all times.
-
Do you need an Rx to get an epinephrine pen?
Yes.
-
Do you need an Rx to get an epinephrine pen?
Yes x2
-
And if all the cookies had been removed from packaging and laid out on a plate?
I blame the parents. They apparently led the girl to believe that these cookies were "safe," based on appearance. She was old enough to read. She should have been taught to not touch unless she could read the label and verify that the item was peanut-free.
That sums up my thought. If you know you have a very dangerous allergy, you don't just grab any old cookie no matter how good it looks.
-
For the company, they have it right there on the packaging. As noted above, the cookies could have been put in a cookie jar or on a plate.
-
Epi pens sound like good things to include in advanced first aid kits. What's the downside of improper use?
(https://foodallergyproject.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/epi-pen.jpg?w=300&h=194)
Terry
https://foodallergyproject.wordpress.com/2013/02/01/epinephrine-a-life-saving-drug/
-
EpiPens aren't just for food allergies. My late wife carried one because she was allergic to bee stings and spider bites. The problem is that they are soo bloody expensive. The actual drug (epinephrine) is dirt cheap, but the makers of the EpiPen brand get over $600 for a pair of them (and they're only sold in pairs). Generics run about $300. And they have a shelf life -- if you or you kid needs one, prepare to fork over that $600 every year.
This is one of the biggest rip-offs in the pharmaceutical industry.
-
EpiPens aren't just for food allergies. My late wife carried one because she was allergic to bee stings and spider bites. The problem is that they are soo bloody expensive. The actual drug (epinephrine) is dirt cheap, but the makers of the EpiPen brand get over $600 for a pair of them (and they're only sold in pairs). Generics run about $300. And they have a shelf life -- if you or you kid needs one, prepare to fork over that $600 every year.
This is one of the biggest rip-offs in the pharmaceutical industry.
Huh. I deleted some snide remarks in my last post about the Rx requirement being merely for protection of the medical industry's rice bowl, but didn't know about the cost of those things.
Yeah, making them automatic adds some engineering costs to the applicators, but holy cow, $300-$600 for a pair of them.... ???
Are there cheaper sources for them? Cananda? Europe?
Are there any equivalent (or nearly so) natural "anti-allergens"? jamisjockey? KD5NRH? (I have noticed, without claiming statistical significance, that Vitamin C reduces my allergy to the pine pollen around here --psychosomatic or not.)
And I ask again, what is the downside of improper application, apart from possible infection of the injection site?
Terry
-
Downside is possible heart arrhythmias related to the rather significant dose of epinephrine they deliver. Additionally, there's a pretty strong educational component associated with what to do immediately after using it. In the field, when we administer subcutaneous epi for anaphylaxis, we also follow up with IV Benadryl. This is because the epi wears off a little quicker than the body can clear the allergen. So if you don't seek immediate medical care after self administering epi with an epi-pen or the generic, you can actually go back into anaphylactic shock. Basically in this situation it's a trade-off. High likelihood of death from anaphylactic shock, vs low likelihood (but still the possibility) of an adverse event from the epinephrine.
-
In 8 years in the field, I only ran one call on true anaphylaxis. Worse, kid/parents didn't know he was so allergic (I think it was a bee sting) . Thankfully we were only about 3 minutes out, but by the time we got on scene he was barely moving any air. We don't use the auto injectors, rather drawing from a multi dose vial. My partner and I didn't even say a word to each other until he was breathing better... But it was the best we ever worked together on a call. We just knew what the other needed/was going to do... We had that kid on 100% oxygen and epi drawn up and administered in under a minute of putting the rig in park.
-
We had that kid on 100% oxygen and epi drawn up and administered in under a minute of putting the rig in park.
Not only is the time impressive, but the fact that you actually tried to move quickly is impressive.
I watched EMS roll up on a guy doing CPR on an old man. It took the EMS crew a solid 5 minutes to actually takeover CPR and start their work.
-
Do you need an Rx to get an epinephrine pen?
Normally, yes. However, if you're a building custodian for a commercial or government building and you're stocking an emergency supply kit, it is possible to get them without. Somehow.
That said, she was apparently at home and knew she had the allergy. The RX for a pen would be routine in that case.
I know when we go to Scout Camp, that is the one medication that a Scout is allowed (actually required) to keep with him at all times.
Schools have tried the zero-tolerance thought, one regulation fits all policy on epi-pens a few times, arguing that they need to be locked up in the not-fully staffed at all times nurse's office along with all the other medications.
The parental meltdowns over this are generally epic, and the parents win.
-
Why didn't somebody tell me it was adrenaline?
I remember I was about 16yo or so I stepped on a nail. Mom made an appointment with Dr. Pilosi, I walked to his office, got a Tetanus Anti Toxin (TAT) shot, sat around his office for a while, started to walk home, started feeling crappy, walked back to his office, he gave me a shot of adrenaline and I felt really pumped up. (I found out the names of the things later.)
I walked back home again still feeling jumpy after he sat me down again for a while.
-
Not only is the time impressive, but the fact that you actually tried to move quickly is impressive.
I watched EMS roll up on a guy doing CPR on an old man. It took the EMS crew a solid 5 minutes to actually takeover CPR and start their work.
8-10 year old, severely cyanotic, using every single accessory muscle to try to move even a little bit of air will definitely get you motivated to move your butt. We *really* didn't feel like doing CPR on a kid that day. Conversely, on the CPR in progress call you witnessed - there are some times when we'll let bystanders continue CPR. But they are rare. If they're doing really good CPR, and if they're not tired out already, I will have them continue CPR if fire isn't on scene with us. That frees us up to get all our crap ready - but it's not like we're standing their idly either... We'll be in a nice little flurry of activity getting everything set up. Ideally, from the time we walk up to the pt to the time we're delivering the first shock (if they're in a shockable rhythm) should be less than 1 minute.
-
8-10 year old, severely cyanotic, using every single accessory muscle to try to move even a little bit of air will definitely get you motivated to move your butt. We *really* didn't feel like doing CPR on a kid that day. Conversely, on the CPR in progress call you witnessed - there are some times when we'll let bystanders continue CPR. But they are rare. If they're doing really good CPR, and if they're not tired out already, I will have them continue CPR if fire isn't on scene with us. That frees us up to get all our crap ready - but it's not like we're standing their idly either... We'll be in a nice little flurry of activity getting everything set up. Ideally, from the time we walk up to the pt to the time we're delivering the first shock (if they're in a shockable rhythm) should be less than 1 minute.
Yeah yeah, but did you apply the cortical electrodes?
-
8-10 year old, severely cyanotic, using every single accessory muscle to try to move even a little bit of air will definitely get you motivated to move your butt. We *really* didn't feel like doing CPR on a kid that day. Conversely, on the CPR in progress call you witnessed - there are some times when we'll let bystanders continue CPR. But they are rare. If they're doing really good CPR, and if they're not tired out already, I will have them continue CPR if fire isn't on scene with us. That frees us up to get all our crap ready - but it's not like we're standing their idly either... We'll be in a nice little flurry of activity getting everything set up. Ideally, from the time we walk up to the pt to the time we're delivering the first shock (if they're in a shockable rhythm) should be less than 1 minute.
The crew I watched didn't hurry at all. Fire and EMS came in together and everyone acted very leisurely in getting set up. The guy doing CPR (me) wasn't tired, just pissed off.
-
I found this interesting: https://www.verywellhealth.com/is-it-possible-to-compress-the-chest-too-fast-1298427
I never thought about a maximum, but apparently there is a point of diminishing returns.
-
Are there any equivalent (or nearly so) natural "anti-allergens"?
Nothing readily obtainable works like epi, and for food allergies, nothing other than figuring out what factor in modern society has made peanuts suddenly more dangerous than any bullet ever developed.
For a respiratory allergy, pretty much any other way of getting small amounts into your system works. If I go out early in ragweed season in shorts and let my legs spend a day or two puffy and red, I can usually get through the rest of the season without sneezing. A cat scratch may look like a horrible injury on me with massive swelling and redness for a few hours, but it seems to inoculate me against the eye/nose irritation for months. Local raw honey is a much more pleasant way to accomplish similar results with plant allergens, but it does seem to take a lot.
-
a company cannot indemnify itself against consumer stupidity.