Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on September 10, 2018, 10:40:36 AM
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Because police aren't ordinary people, and police would never make a mistake and shoot the wrong pers...
https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/national-international/Dallas-Officer-Fatally-Shoots-Man-492675981.html?_osource=taboola-recirc
Oh.
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That story is just insane.
Your key doesn't work, and someone opens the door to "your" apartment... and you pull out a gun and shoot them? Rather than think- OH, maybe I'm in the wrong place?
It sounds like this woman most definitely ought not to have had a badge. Got locked onto one idea and stuck with it until someone died.
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It sounds like this woman most definitely ought not to have had a badge.
... was drunk or on drugs or just too stupid to be roaming free.
Anyway, she is getting charged by the DA.
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That story is just insane.
Your key doesn't work, and someone opens the door to "your" apartment... and you pull out a gun and shoot them? Rather than think- OH, maybe I'm in the wrong place?
It sounds like this woman most definitely ought not to have had a badge. Got locked onto one idea and stuck with it until someone died.
People like you will never understand. These rogue locksmiths aren't just going to go away. I guess you people won't change your tune until they take over YOUR house, and change YOUR locks. You'll understand then.
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[SPECULATION]
I wonder if, after hearing someone fussing with his door, he answered it with a gun in hand. I know I sure as hell would.
Doesn't explain a lot, but it might explain something.
[SPECULATION OFF]
On the locks, I bet I could go around our 50 or so apartments and find my door key (mechanical) would open two or three other doors.
And I would be surprised if I weren't greeted by a couple uh them gun-totin' right-wing gun nut shoot-to-kill bloodthirsty residents after fussin' with their doorknobs. And this is only Colorado, not Texas.
Terry
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[SPECULATION]
I wonder if, after hearing someone fussing with his door, he answered it with a gun in hand. I know I sure as hell would.
[SPECULATION OFF]
Yeah, if I hear someone trying to open my door I'm NOT going to throw it open and ask them what they're doing. I'm going to arm myself, stand to the side of the door, and ask very loudly who they are and what they want.
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[SPECULATION]
I wonder if, after hearing someone fussing with his door, he answered it with a gun in hand. I know I sure as hell would.
Doesn't explain a lot, but it might explain something.
[SPECULATION OFF]
On the locks, I bet I could go around our 50 or so apartments and find my door key (mechanical) would open two or three other doors.
And I would be surprised if I weren't greeted by a couple uh them gun-totin' right-wing gun nut shoot-to-kill bloodthirsty residents after fussin' with their doorknobs. And this is only Colorado, not Texas.
Terry
If one article I read was correct the locks are electronic with swipe cards or fobs. Like at Hotels or a lot of businesses. So she would have kept getting the red no access light. How the door a actually got opened I haven’t read yet. It could have been him opening it. Still she should have had a big clue she was at the wrong door.
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I don't suppose someone was smart enough to draw a toxicology blood sample on the officer at the time of the incident. It would be interesting to see if there were any fun chemicals in her bloodstream at the time of the shoot.
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^ Apparently she volunteered to have it done, possibly back in her employment agreement. I note she just got off a 14 hour shift serving warrants or subpoenas or something... at peoples' doors, I assume.
Lotsa Qs in this one, more than usual.
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Were these furnished apartments? Do those often end up being all alike? How long had she been in this apartment?
Either way, she was in a place she had no right to be and killed someone. There is a lot of information here we don't have.
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Somewhere I read that this was not her first shooting. can't find it now.
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I know I've been rather annoyed at all the reports giving the blue version of events as gospel; not a single allegedly to be heard.
Some animals are move equal than others.
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Apparently they are thinking about charging her with manslaughter.
So you can enter someone else's home, kill them, and get charged on the level of an accidental death.
It gets hard to keep any faith in police with things like this- it seems every few weeks brings another incident.
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When I worked in a door factory, I learned that they only used 5 or 6 unique keysets, with master keys that open them all. Some of the orders were for 40-50 doors at a time for resorts, military housing, or other housing projects. This sort of shook my confidence in the actual level of security a doorlock provides.
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I know I've been rather annoyed at all the reports giving the blue version of events as gospel; not a single allegedly to be heard.
Some animals are move equal than others.
It seems the stories are all one way or all the other way. Depends on whose version of events they are getting.
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^,^ That's about what I figured, brimic
Master keys for an "infinite" number of tumbler setups would seem to be pretty awkward.
About two years ago the managers here installed deadbolts on all the downstairs apartments. I don't know if there was an incident which precipitated this or not. I already had a deadbolt on my second floor door, installed even before I rented the place.
In any case, I figure the probability of one doorknob key fitting another one would be one in five, or 0.20. I guess it would be similar for the deadbolts.
Anyhow, figuring that way, per brimic, I guess the chances of a person's two keys (knob and deadbolt) being able to open any other given door would be 0.20 X 0.20 = 0.04, which is a lot better odds, or 1 in 25.
If my reckoning is correct for mechanical keys.
Terry
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The video showed that the complex has electronic keys, so the victim probably opened the door to see who was trying to get in. I bet he thought that it was someone either lost or drunk, and he was simply going to direct them to their apartment.
And yes, the officer should be charged. It's not murder (no premeditation), but definitely aggravated manslaughter. If Texas has something like that. She should not walk free not matter what.
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She should be charged and, if found guilty, spend a few years behind bars. If anyone not wearing blue had done something similar they'd have been in jail within the first hour - not days later.
What's pissing me off even more than this bad shoot are the asshats trying to make it into a white vs black thing. Their relative skin color doesn't make it any worse than if it'd been purple vs plaid.
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I read earlier today on Fox that she has been charged with manslaughter.
According to the story, her apartment is one floor above the shooting victim's. The exteriors are nearly identical. Supposedly, when she inserted her key, the door was already slightly ajar and she opened it. The apartment was completely dark, and she heard noises making her think she was encountering a burglar in her apartment. She claims the victim ignored her verbal commands, then she shot him.
More details in the article. (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/10/latest-grand-jury-to-hear-case-against-dallas-cop.html)
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She claims the victim ignored her verbal commands
So innocent homeowner finds finds someone essentially (intentional or not) executing a home invasion and ignores the verbal commands of the unknown intruder.
The cop is lucky she wasn't the one killed.
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Master keys for an "infinite" number of tumbler setups would seem to be pretty awkward.
Not really. The pins are split. The regular keys move the pin all the way, and those can be as many combinations as you want. The splits are set up to allow a single master key to operate any lock. In any sort of security system, there are usually at least two levels of master key.
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I read earlier today on Fox that she has been charged with manslaughter.
According to the story, her apartment is one floor above the shooting victim's. The exteriors are nearly identical. Supposedly, when she inserted her key, the door was already slightly ajar and she opened it. The apartment was completely dark, and she heard noises making her think she was encountering a burglar in her apartment. She claims the victim ignored her verbal commands, then she shot him.
More details in the article. (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/10/latest-grand-jury-to-hear-case-against-dallas-cop.html)
There's that "compliance" mentality again. She probably even used "command voice" when issuing her verbal commands. The problem is, he was where he belonged, she was where she DIDN'T belong, and he had no idea she was a cop -- so why should he obey her commands?
The cop is lucky she wasn't the one killed.
Too true.
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"The cop is lucky she wasn't the one killed."
Too true.
If he'd shot her, whether he killer her or not, they would have Cory Meye'd him. He was screwed either way. :mad:
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Funny how they waited 3 days to arrest her. If the victim had shot her instead he would have been arrested on the spot I'll bet. I agree this is not a race issue. It's the entitled mentality of law enforcement. If they would start treating their fellow officers as they would any other citizen when it appears a crime was committed and they'd start getting back some of the respect and trust they claim to want so much.
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I read earlier today on Fox that she has been charged with manslaughter.
According to the story, her apartment is one floor above the shooting victim's. The exteriors are nearly identical. Supposedly, when she inserted her key, the door was already slightly ajar and she opened it. The apartment was completely dark, and she heard noises making her think she was encountering a burglar in her apartment. She claims the victim ignored her verbal commands, then she shot him.
More details in the article. (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/09/10/latest-grand-jury-to-hear-case-against-dallas-cop.html)
I find I agree with the recent comments. On the bolded part, I think you would be surprised how many break-ins happen with an unlocked door. This an aspect of self defense people forget about. You first line of defense at home is to lock the door and make sure it is locked.
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the respect and trust they claim to want so much.
I don't think they want respect and trust. My opinion is that "they" want fear and obedience.
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The video showed that the complex has electronic keys, so the victim probably opened the door to see who was trying to get in. I bet he thought that it was someone either lost or drunk, and he was simply going to direct them to their apartment.
And yes, the officer should be charged. It's not murder (no premeditation), but definitely aggravated manslaughter. If Texas has something like that. She should not walk free not matter what.
Last I heard all the particulars, premeditated murder would be "capital murder". They have a murder and maybe a 2nd degree murder and manslaughter that have different definitions. I am not sure where this one fits in, but the mistake of being in the wrong place was hers. And if she went into the "command voice" mode that makes it worse IMO. As said above, were she not a police officer, she would have been in jail immediately.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zfl7PhZvn0
This is a cop or former cop talking about the whole thing. He gives more detail of the encounter than I thought the article did. He did point out that trying to charge her with a harsher murder charge could result in acquittal if the known facts don't support it.
The main inequality I see in this whole thing is I think a non-cop would have been arrested immediately and never let go without being charged and with hefty bail. I can sort of understand it as the responding officers would know her. But they are charging her with a serious crime that is likely to stick unless some other information comes out completely different than what we have been told. We will see where this goes.
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I don't think they want respect and trust. My opinion is that "they" want fear and obedience.
Indeed, most (I say most -- certainly "many") police want instantaneous compliance with whatever they tell us to do -- whether or not what they tell us to do makes any sense whatsoever.
But ... they also want us to respect and trust them. And too many of them can't see the inherent conflict in that attitude.
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I think they're going to use the "he didn't comply with her commands" line to blame his death totally on him.
They'll admit that, yes, she made a mistake in going to the wrong apartment but as soon as he saw she was a police officer in uniform it was his obligation to do everything she said. He didn't, therefore, because she was in fear for her life, her weapon was discharged which lead to the death of the subject.
So she'll get a slap on the wrist, the family will get a big payout and we'll all forget about this in a few months.
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I think they're going to use the "he didn't comply with her commands" line to blame his death totally on him.
They'll admit that, yes, she made a mistake in going to the wrong apartment but as soon as he saw she was a police officer in uniform it was his obligation to do everything she said. He didn't, therefore, because she was in fear for her life, her weapon was discharged which lead to the death of the subject.
So she'll get a slap on the wrist, the family will get a big payout and we'll all forget about this in a few months.
I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.
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I hope you're wrong, but I fear you're right.
I think the officer will be prosecuted and convicted. It won't be for murder, but she won't go free.
For good or bad, there is a strong public opinion that is influencing the police and DA.
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The main inequality I see in this whole thing is I think a non-cop would have been arrested immediately and never let go without being charged and with hefty bail.
Word.
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I think the officer will be prosecuted and convicted. It won't be for murder, but she won't go free.
For good or bad, there is a strong public opinion that is influencing the police and DA.
As much as I decry the role of the officer in the incident, I certainly don't think the charge should be murder. I am inclined to accept the likelihood that her story is true: that she was tired, she went to the wrong apartment and, seeing what she thought was an intruder in "her" apartment, she opened fire when he didn't obey her commands. As the police officer in that video commented, I don't think when she got off duty she decided on the drive home that, "I think when I get home I'll just go upstairs and kill that black dude who lives over me." I think it was a tragic error, but the punishment should fit the crime, and I don't think the crime was murder. I think manslaughter or negligent homicide would be appropriate.
I've done exactly the same thing the cop in his video described: come out of a store, walked up to "my" car, and wondered why I couldn't unlock the doors -- only to realize that, oops, my car was one aisle over and five stalls down. I'm not proud to admit that this has happened more than once.
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I think they're going to use the "he didn't comply with her commands" line to blame his death totally on him.
They'll admit that, yes, she made a mistake in going to the wrong apartment but as soon as he saw she was a police officer in uniform it was his obligation to do everything she said. He didn't, therefore, because she was in fear for her life, her weapon was discharged which lead to the death of the subject.
So she'll get a slap on the wrist, the family will get a big payout and we'll all forget about this in a few months.
She has already been charged. So we will see where that process leads.
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She has already been charged. So we will see where that process leads.
It's going in front of the Grand Jury. If the prosecutor wants to tank the case he has a grand opportunity here.
The warrant for the search of the apartment is here:
https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Officer-Amber-Guygers-Arrest-Warrant-Details-Shooting-Inside-Neighbors-Apartment-492889781.html#warrant
There is at said suspected place and premises the following
item(s) constituting evidence of a criminal offense: Fired Cartridge
Casings, fired projectiles, firearms, ballistic vest, keys, trace
evidence such as .blood, video surveillance systenn any' contraband,
such as narcotics, and other items that may have been used in criminal
offenses are located in the above described residence.
(Bolding mine.)
Is looking for "contraband" normal in a situation like this or are they going in hoping to find something that could make Jean look like he was at fault for his own death?
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Makes me wonder if that is sort of default language so they can legally poke around for stuff unrelated to the shooting.
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I thought search warrants were supposed to be limited to looking for items relating to the [alleged] crime being investigated. It doesn't matter if the guy had a printing press and was printing fake U.S. twenty dollar bills, it has nothing to do with the cop's shooting him, so it doesn't belong on the search warrant. Same for narcotics, unless they're going to claim that the cop was smoking a joint when she opened the door and dropped it in the entry hallway when she started shooting. The crime being investigated is a homicide, not dealing in [___]
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David Burge
@iowahawkblog
David Burge Retweeted FOX 4 NEWS
off duty Dallas cop stumbles into guy's apartment, for no apparent reason, shoots him dead. Dallas PD response: LOOK LOOK HE HAD WEED
DEVELOPING: Search warrant: Marijuana found in Botham Jean’s apartment after deadly shooting http://bit.ly/2D2fd0u
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2018/09/13/who-gives-a-fk-marijuana-found-in-search-after-man-shot-dead-in-his-own-apartment-by-off-duty-cop/
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Why would they need a search warrant to search the scene of the crime?
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Why would they need a search warrant to search the scene of the crime?
Because the weed wasn't in plain sight of the area where the body was found. They had to have a reason an excuse to look farther so they could find something -- anything -- to deflect the story from the fact that a sister officer had just killed an innocent man in his own home.
The real question is why the *expletive deleted*ck any judge would have approved a search warrant for the home of a dead man who was just killed by a police officer due to no fault of his (the deceased's) own.
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Because the weed wasn't in plain sight of the area where the body was found. They had to have a reason an excuse to look farther so they could find something -- anything -- to deflect the story from the fact that a sister officer had just killed an innocent man in his own home.
The real question is why the *expletive deleted*ck any judge would have approved a search warrant for the home of a dead man who was just killed by a police officer due to no fault of his (the deceased's) own.
Get with the program, it was completely his fault. Did you not read where he didn't follow her commands?
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169631/amp/Search-warrant-says-Dallas-cop-trying-open-black-neighbors-door-set-keys.html?__twitter_impression=true
This looked like some new information, but I am not certain. The quote below was at the top, but further down the article says all the same stuff the original articles said. We'll see.
A newly released search warrant claims the Dallas cop was trying to open the door with a set of keys when he confronted her and she shot him, a bombshell revelation which significantly undermines her claim she found him sitting inside in the dark.
The report was obtained by DailyMail.com on Friday. It explains why police wanted to search Jean's apartment after his killing for evidence which may inform the Guyger's case.
It says police officer Amber Guyger, 30, did not arrive at Both Jean's apartment to find the door ajar but rather was trying to unlock it with her set of keys when she appeared there last Thursday after a shift.
She 'was attempting to enter apartment 1478, with a set of keys', the officer who wrote the report said, when Botham confronted her at the door.
The report reads: 'During this incident, an off-duty Dallas Police Officer who was wearing a full Dallas Police uniform, was attempting to enter apartment number 1478, with a set of keys.
'An unknown male, inside the apartment, confronted the officer at the door. A neighbor stated that he heard an exchange of words, immediately followed by at least two gunshots.
'The officer possibly believed the subject was an intruder, drew her service weapon and fired at the subject, striking him in the chest.'
Neighbors then heard a brief exchange of words and then gunshots
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6169631/amp/Search-warrant-says-Dallas-cop-trying-open-black-neighbors-door-set-keys.html?__twitter_impression=true
This looked like some new information, but I am not certain. The quote below was at the top, but further down the article says all the same stuff the original articles said. We'll see.
Actually, the initial article I read reported that she tried to open the door and the the occupant then opened it. The business about her finding the door "ajar" was inserted into the narrative later on -- perhaps to try to help her case.
Meanwhile, it appears the National Review shares the same concerns that many of us have expressed.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/09/amber-guyger-botham-jean-shooting-police-must-face-impartial-justice/
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Getting a warrant after the fact is pretty standard these days. It is used primarily to preserve evidence and further the investigation. I doubt the cops went looking for evidence against the victim.
My guess is that the cops were searching for a video or audio recording, such as a security camera or similar, when they discovered the dope. Other than a news article, no offcial person is making a big deal about the drugs.
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You know- I think I have figured out my feelings on police shootings.
When the person being shot is an actual criminal doing bad things- robbing, stealing, attacking people- I give the cops wide latitude in the use of force.
When it is an innocent person killed by "mistake" or incompetence, that is when it outrages me. Like this.
Sounds like manslaughter to me.
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Yeah, one comment that was on the video I posted earlier was a warning about getting too aggressive with the charges. If you want to insure a conviction, don't over-charge beyond what the evidence can prove.
And if it hasn't been mentioned, I understand this investigation was turned over to the Texas Rangers which would be a state level agency.
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If one thought they were in their apartment, why would you have to walk outside to look at the apt #?
The affidavit claims Guyger only realized she was in the wrong apartment when 911 dispatchers asked for the location of the shooting. “Upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment,” the document states.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theblaze.com/news/2018/09/16/bombshell-discovery-in-dallas-police-shooting-of-man-in-wrong-apartment-leads-to-more-questions/amp
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If one thought they were in their apartment, why would you have to walk outside to look at the apt #?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theblaze.com/news/2018/09/16/bombshell-discovery-in-dallas-police-shooting-of-man-in-wrong-apartment-leads-to-more-questions/amp
What I heard previously is that the lights were off when the shooting took place. Supposedly she turned on the lights while calling 911 and she realized she wasn't in her apartment. She had to go to the door to confirm where she was and tell 911 where to dispatch help.
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If one thought they were in their apartment, why would you have to walk outside to look at the apt #?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theblaze.com/news/2018/09/16/bombshell-discovery-in-dallas-police-shooting-of-man-in-wrong-apartment-leads-to-more-questions/amp
It's entirely possible for a person to have trouble recalling their own address, especially after having shot someone. I think what's more likely is that she had realized by then the interior of the apartment didn't match her own.
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I think what's more likely is that she had realized by then the interior of the apartment didn't match her own.
Well, yeah. Her's didn't have dead guy in it.
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It's entirely possible for a person to have trouble recalling their own address, especially after having shot someone. I think what's more likely is that she had realized by then the interior of the apartment didn't match her own.
Obviously, an astute police officer would immediately conclude that some sneaky burglar had stolen all her furniture and replaced it with cheap, discount house substitutes to obscure the fact he had stripped the apartment.
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...some sneaky burglar had stolen all her furniture and replaced it with cheap, discount house substitutes to obscure the fact he had stripped the apartment.
Don't you hate it when that happens?
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Update: [Now former] Officer Guyger has been terminated by the Dallas PD.
https://www.mediaite.com/online/dallas-officer-amber-guyger-terminated-over-botham-jean-killing/
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Amber Guyger indicted for murder. (https://www.dallasnews.com/news/courts/2018/11/30/grand-jury-gets-back-work-deciding-whether-indict-amber-guyger-killing-botham-jean)
Which means I was wrong about what would happen. Maybe justice will prevail.
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To be honest, I don't think murder is the appropriate charge.
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To be honest, I don't think murder is the appropriate charge.
Depends. Many states lump lesser charges in as subsections of the more serious charges, i.e. Manslaughter as a subsection of the Murder statute.
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Depends. Many states lump lesser charges in as subsections of the more serious charges, i.e. Manslaughter as a subsection of the Murder statute.
She was originally arrested on a charge of manslaughter. The article said the grand jury skipped right over that and went straight to murder. Obviously, I wasn't in the grand jury room but I have a hard time seeing how the incident could possibly qualify as a murder.
Donning my triple-ply tinfoil hat, suppose the D.A. doesn't really really want to convict a former cop. I think a manslaughter charge would be virtually a slam dunk for conviction. Murder? Dunno what Texas law says, but I think the prosecution has a high hurdle to leap over to get a murder conviction. Is it possible that's intentional?
Again, I don't know what Texas law is. If they didn't charge her with manslaughter, I don't know if the judge can/will instruct a jury that they can find her guilty of manslaughter if they don't agree to convict for murder.
Just speculatin' ...
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Here's the Texas statute...
https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/PE/htm/PE.19.htm
Looks like Murder might fit, as it prohibits knowingly causing the death of another. Under Texas law, the definition of "knowingly" is:
"A person acts knowingly, or with knowledge, with respect to the nature of his conduct or to circumstances surrounding his conduct when he is aware of the nature of his conduct or that the circumstances exist. A person acts knowingly, or with knowledge, with respect to a result of his conduct when he is aware that his conduct is reasonably certain to cause the result." Title 2, Section 6.03.
I don't recall any specific details about the shooting, number of shots fired, where the victim was hit, etc., but it really isn't too much of a stretch to see an indictment for this. Leaves room for a plea bargain, if you want to think conspiracy at all...
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IIRC there was some talk in the original news stories that she was banging on the door and yelling, and some witnesses that described events that didn't match her story.
If they have testimony contradicting her retelling of the events it murder might become more appropriate.
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IIRC there was some talk in the original news stories that she was banging on the door and yelling, and some witnesses that described events that didn't match her story.
If they have testimony contradicting her retelling of the events it murder might become more appropriate.
There have been at least three versions:
1. The door was open, she walked in and saw him across the room
2. The door was open, he was standing at the door when she opened it
3. The door was locked, he heard her trying to open it, and he opened the door to see who was outside