Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Kingcreek on March 20, 2019, 02:35:17 PM
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This morning, drove my 2014 wrangler unlimited rubicon to work to drop off some stuff before I went to a early meeting across town. Put it in park, left it running, and got out to unload a couple things when suddenly,
The horn blared loudly and continuously. I thought WTF and I grabbed the key and turned off the engine. Tried door lock and unlock and alarm buttons, no change, continuous horn like a stuck horn button. Banged on horn center with no effect. Unlocked building and set some things inside and locked building and got back in jeep.
Started and ran normally with horn blaring. Was going to take it to the dealer instead of going to my meeting and it stopped, just the horn, jeep ran fine.
So I drove it to my meeting, parked and locked it. When I came out 45 minutes later and used the key fob to unlock, sure enough, instant continuous blaring horn. I started it up and drove out of the parking lot and 1/2 block before it quit. I drove home to get other key fob and it went off when I opened the unlocked door. Loud for a minute or 2 then normal in every way.
EXCEPT when I go onscreen to the HDD system information it displays database: ERROR- TAG NOT FOUND
So I drive it to Oreillys because the dealer can't get it in until next Wednesday and I thought maybe, just maybe, the battery is failing and throwing some weird voltages or something. The sales slash tech guy listened to me explain my issue for 5 minutes and didn't think my 5 year old battery could cause that and didn't seem to want to be bothered to test my battery. So I told him I would check it myself tonight. Walked out and opened the door and.... Silence.
Started and ran normal. We will see when I go to leave later. I'm leaning toward a hiccup in the system voltage or something and possibly the battery getting ready to die.
Had an issue with our crossfire a couple years ago where it started locking the doors while parked in the garage then started setting off car alarm at random times. The dealership had it for 4 days and couldn't find the problem even though it did it on their lot a couple times. I took it home and 3 days later the battery was dead. Put a new battery in and never had the problem again.
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no way to troubleshoot this over internet, and in person it requires someone who knows what they are doing. If they utter the words “computer needs replacing” they likely aren’t that person. Also intermittent faults are hell to solve too.
You do have to have good system voltage for the computerized stuff to work correctly. I don’t know why he didn’t test your battery but he should have.
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I have nothing helpful to offer, just my experience with a Jeep security system. I briefly owned a 1999 Grand Cherokee. I also had a problem with the alarm system randomly triggering the horn. Took it to the dealer, and they couldn't find anything wrong. On the second or third visit, I was standing in an open garage bay door, talking to the service manager and the shop foreman with my GC parked outside. The horn suddenly started blaring, and I said, "See? That's what I'm talking about." They both immediately claimed that I must have pressed the panic button on the key fob -- until I pointed out that the shop foreman was holding the key fob.
They never found the cause. I only had that vehicle for 9 months -- Dimestore-Chrysler bought it back so I wouldn't invoke the lemon law.
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Maybe a fault in the theft alarm system in the key fob? No offense but every one I know who have had Jeeps lately, hate them for all the problems. One friend went so far as to get an attorney and sue. Got a very good settlement.
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I don't think it's alarm related. It's not intermittent and the light don't flash. The horn just blares continuously for a minute or sometimes less. Except when it doesn't. The HDD system thing is weird. When it didn't do it the system info was displayed again.
I'm finding out that the new electronic control systems use the same wires for several functions and the board behind the fuse panel sorts the signals out for different functions.
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Will that side of the electronics throw codes? Might be worth hooking up an ODBII scanner to see if anything pops up.
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It might show up on a diagnostic scan. I'll have the dealer check it Wednesday unless I solve it before then. It's no longer under warranty (except for an extension on the clock spring but that's not likely it.)
I'm going to pull the battery terminals tonight and make sure they are clean and tight and get a HD reboot that way. I'll check battery voltage at the same time.
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http://www.underhoodservice.com/horn-honks-open-door/
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In two different vehicles I've had weird problems when the battery in the key fob needed replacing. Admittedly it was things like an alarm sound or not starting, never just a constant horn sounding.
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Happened with both key fobs, once when I used key to unlock, and also once when I just opened an unlocked door.
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http://www.underhoodservice.com/horn-honks-open-door/
Non Jeep people should not presume to write about Jeep vehicles.
Fast-forward to 2012, Chrysler Corporation built a Jeep named the Rubicon, presumably to bless it with the famous river’s sense of adventurous ambiance.
Jeep uses the name "Rubicon" because they used to test their new 4x4 vehicles by driving them across the Rubicon Trail, which crosses the mountains between California and Nevada.
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Battery is the first possible culprit. Measure KOEO voltage to see what it's really putting out.
Also, Chrysler products are notorious for problems with the relay boards. I think the South Main Auto channel on Youtube actually has a video on it.
Brad
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You can pull the 20amp fuse for the horn, its in the fuse box. This will save you from the neighbors, if goes off in middle of the night.
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I checked the batt. Showing 13.4 V but just opening the hood set the horn off again. Then opening the door to get to the owners manual for the fuse schematics set it off again.
2 - 10 amp fuses for horn Hi/Lo got pulled. I’m leaning more toward circuit relay board.
Pulled the terminals and they are were clean and tight and that should cause a reboot on the HD but I’m not hopeful that it will solve any problems.
Sigh....
Quiet is nice for now but the noise level when the wife/CFO sees what the dealer will charge might be different.
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Swap the horn relay for one of the others. See if the issue continues.
That is if it’s equipped with relays that are plugged into the VCIM. I think the horn and a few others are plug in micros relays.
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VICM. Not VCIM.
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VICM? Now you have passed my knowledge base.
What I got from the linked article is it’s possible a failure related to the cabin “node” that controls things like interior lights, door latch release, steering mounted volume controls, and horn.
I’m resolved to driving it without horn fuses until turning it over to the Jeep stealership next week. I know a couple of the techs but they are under new nonlocal ownership.
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VICM? Now you have passed my knowledge base.
What I got from the linked article is it’s possible a failure related to the cabin “node” that controls things like interior lights, door latch release, steering mounted volume controls, and horn.
I’m resolved to driving it without horn fuses until turning it over to the Jeep stealership next week. I know a couple of the techs but they are under new nonlocal ownership.
The newer ones since I worked at a Jeep dealership may have changed.
VICM = vehicle interface control module. AKA - the under hood fuse box.
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I think it's referred to as TIPM now (Totally Integrated Power Module). Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, on Chrysler/Jeep products runs through the TIPM. They also seem to have an affinity for putting stuff on relay-controlled circuits that don't necessarily need to be. I did a little digging and the horn may be on such a circuit. If so, the relay may be sticking.
No idea how to confirm the circuit config. Jeep forum is probably your best bet. I'm sure someone there will have a wiring diagram posted, or at least have a resource for one.
I mentioned the South Main Auto channel above. Seriously, go watch it, especially his vids on electronics diagnosis. Chrysler/Jeep TIPMs are a big chunk of his business. If nothing else, it's damned informative and takes much of the mystery out of today's complex auto electrical systems.
Brad
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Disconnected the battery terminals cleaned and tightened them and it’s been fine through 4 cycles today. System info is displayed properly each time and the phone connects automatically which wasn’t happening yesterday. The system reboot seems to have cleared it for now. I’ll put the horn fuses back in if the system info remains normal.
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I think it's referred to as TIPM now (Totally Integrated Power Module). Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, on Chrysler/Jeep products runs through the TIPM. They also seem to have an affinity for putting stuff on relay-controlled circuits that don't necessarily need to be. I did a little digging and the horn may be on such a circuit. If so, the relay may be sticking.
No idea how to confirm the circuit config. Jeep forum is probably your best bet. I'm sure someone there will have a wiring diagram posted, or at least have a resource for one.
I mentioned the South Main Auto channel above. Seriously, go watch it, especially his vids on electronics diagnosis. Chrysler/Jeep TIPMs are a big chunk of his business. If nothing else, it's damned informative and takes much of the mystery out of today's complex auto electrical systems.
Brad
TIPM. You are correct sir.
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Well it worked fine all day several cycles parked and entered and locked and unlocked, the system information displayed normally. Was feeling pretty good about the system reset...
Until....
I put the horn fuses back in. Pushed the plunger switch for the hood and let off and the horn went loud and continuous.
Pulled the fuses again. Started the engine to check the screen and system information says database error again bunch of reference lines that usually display numbers say N/A. Shut down, restarted, same thing. D/C the battery terminals and reconnected again to force a reboot and everything is back normal.
Something in the horn relay is freaking it. Evidently with the fuses out the circuit is not able to freak everything else in that node?
Going to watch the recommended video tomorrow.
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Are you in Rust Belt country?
Brad
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Yep. NW Illinois but there is no rust anywhere on this vehicle except where the paint gets rock chipped off the shock tubes. It was kept in a garage by previous owner and it looks like it was sprayed with fluid film or something similar underneath. I treated it myself last fall when I bought it.
It wasn’t a flood recovery or anything like that. I know the previous owner.
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You pretty handy with a multi-meter and test light?
Brad
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You pretty handy with a multi-meter and test light?
Brad
Sort of, in a half tard kind of way.
I'm looking into a rebuilt plug and play TIPM that comes with tested relays and fuses installed. Might possibly save me as much as a thousand bucks compared to taking it to the jeep stealership
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Don't haul off and go that far quite yet. It might be something as simple as a bad ground or shorted wire. What you need, first and foremost, is a wiring diagram that goes from battery to horn, and everything in between. I think there are services where you can pay a modest fee and download complete factory diagrams.
Brad
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Under hood is clean and looks like new. This is a Jeep Wrangler originally purchased by a local insurance agent that just drove it like a car. Never off road, wrecked, or mudded or flooded. I've visually and finger wiggle checked every connection I can without stripping off a lot of stuff. Relays are soldered in to the circuit board. The power reset is clearing the problem as long as fuses are left out.
I found a rebuild lab that installs all new upgraded relays (original mfg was known for weak relay issues) guarantees plug and play and full 1 year warranty. They'll buy it back if it turns out to be something different for a $85 restocking fee and they'll give me $25 for my old one making net cost shipping and all $301.
2 day priority shipping and a 30 minute job I can do myself.
The jeep forums and the owner of the rebuild lab support the TIPM relay failure. I felt no pressure to buy talking to the lab. He was thorough with his questions before he said it might be a bad ground somewhere but it really points back to a TIPM relay sticking. A known issue with these that often affects things like wipers and fuel pumps.
With all the other node issues like phone not connecting, system info not displaying correctly, the horn coming on whenever the interior lights are activated, I'm thinking I can risk $100 or less and try a swap.
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Curse you, Kingcreek. Apparently Gremlins are transmitted over the internet.
Just last night, our SUV reset the clock and flashed a warning light for about .2 seconds before acting normal again. And then did the exact same thing about an hour later.
Now, given that I had just noted some corrosion on the battery terminals, I have no doubt it's connected to that. I'll be needing to clean them up. Still, I'm blaming you, though.
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Curse you, Kingcreek. Apparently Gremlins are transmitted over the internet.
Just last night, our SUV reset the clock and flashed a warning light for about .2 seconds before acting normal again. And then did the exact same thing about an hour later.
Now, given that I had just noted some corrosion on the battery terminals, I have no doubt it's connected to that. I'll be needing to clean them up. Still, I'm blaming you, though.
There's an idea! I wonder what it costs for an exorcist?
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After multiple TIPM swaps and power resets/restores, more trial and error, and no small amount of frustration...
I took it to the dealer. They have determined that the cruise control switch in the steering wheel control cluster shorted and it shares a circuit cluster with the horn and other unrelated things. Strange but the cruise control is among the things that functioned normally with a power reset as long as the horn fuses were left out.
New CC switch is installed. I pick it up later today but it is supposed to be functioning normally and considered cured of any gremlins. All error codes and reconfigures are clear at this time.
Weird things. Makes me want to trade for an old CJ7 or Cherokee Chief, something pre 1980.
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My 1947 Hudson pickup truck had, IIRC, three fuses for the entire vehicle, and it ran just fine.
I sure miss that truck.
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I hated to surrender it to the dealer but I might never have found the problem myself. Don't know what it cost me yet but I can't complain about the service dept. A 3 generation family-owned dealership that was sold to nonlocal owner group 3 years ago. My grandfather was a mechanic and service manager there for 49 years until the late 1960s but everything changed of course and I didn't want to have any unpleasant surprises with the current management.
For pure simplicity, the 1972 VW beetle I drove in college was it. The model As and T that dad restored and owned were really simple but not practical for daily drivers.
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Brought back from the dead….
Many gremlins since then. Jeeps are known for them.
Latest is a random alarm ping (like when the seatbelt is unlatched) accompanied by dash lights flashing on briefly.
No codes on scan, none in memory.
I cleaned battery terminals and thought I fixed it for 1 month no issues. Then it came back.
I noticed that the e-disconnect light for the sway bar always flashed and random others sometimes joined in with it.
I just DC’d the battery and dropped the front skid and pulled the bus for the SB actuator. I have never serviced it. It looked ok, no corrosion and just a hint of water near the seal but not internal. I cleaned it good and put fresh dielectric grease on the seal and contacts.
My battery is aging out and that is another possible culprit.
I’m getting ready to go back to my fishing hole. The one that is a mile from the road and I have to back all the way into the lake to unload the boat (no ramp, primitive trail).
I hate chasing gremlins. I probably shouldn’t drive a Jeep.
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"I probably shouldn’t drive a Jeep."
Ding, ding, ding, winner.
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"I probably shouldn’t drive a Jeep."
Ding, ding, ding, winner.
I was talking to the service manager at the local independent repair shop about what kind of vehicles (SUVs) he would recommend, with reliability in mind. His take on Jeeps? "All kinds of little weird stuff keeps going wrong with them."
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If it didn't have gremlins could it still be called a Jeep?
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Japanese 4bys for the win. =D
I was talking to the service manager at the local independent repair shop about what kind of vehicles (SUVs) he would recommend, with reliability in mind. His take on Jeeps? "All kinds of little weird stuff keeps going wrong with them."
I had an 86 Jeep Comanche, and I have to say that the engine and drivetrain were solid. I sold it at I think right at 100K miles, and I bet it could have gone well beyond. One of the reasons I sold it though, was all the ancillary nickel and dime stuff that kept breaking. Plus I don't think there was a single 86 Comanche made where the paint didn't go to *expletive deleted*it within a few years.
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I had several MOPAR cars over the years and two Ram Trucks. I had trouble with all of them, continuously. I have a thick head and learn the hard way....over and over. The last one had the transmission fail at 40,000 miles. If I hadn't had a good friend who was the Sales Manager at the dealership I would have ate the cost of replacement. This was shortly after Mercedes/Benz merged with Chrysler. That was a nightmare. I also heard the new Ram trucks still have the same transmission from back then.
Every 4x4 truck of every iteration, foreign or domestic, and I had several of each, had problems. Maybe not my Nissan Frontier so much, but the check engine light was on starting at about 10,000 miles. I finally put a piece of black tape over it. I sold it to a guy after I had it for 15 years, who had to put a new engine in it at 120,000 miles, right after he bought if from me. He was a skilled mechanic with all the toys in his garage, and was not problem for him. He didn't care as I sold it to him for a nice price for him.
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I had several MOPAR cars over the years and two Ram Trucks. I had trouble with all of them, continuously. I have a thick head and learn the hard way....over and over. The last one had the transmission fail at 40,000 miles. If I hadn't had a good friend who was the Sales Manager at the dealership I would have ate the cost of replacement. This was shortly after Mercedes/Benz merged with Chrysler. That was a nightmare. I also heard the new Ram trucks still have the same transmission from back then.
There's a reason used car lots are often full of fairly new Chryslers and failing transmissions is one of them
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I was talking to the service manager at the local independent repair shop about what kind of vehicles (SUVs) he would recommend, with reliability in mind. His take on Jeeps? "All kinds of little weird stuff keeps going wrong with them."
Yup.
This thing is robust as all get out in some ways, and so weak and vulnerable in other ways.
The axles, drive train, and suspension is overbuilt. The electronics are like cheap Chinese knockoffs.
The oil filter/cooler housing is plastic. When (not if) they fail, you have to pull the heads and hope the water didn’t infil your engine oil before you catch it. Or your oil in your coolant.
I have a new radiator in the box and a new thermostat (integral with a cheap plastic housing btw) because they always, as in always, start leaking at the top driver side seam. Aluminum and plastic in some kind of press fit cheapo design.
And yet, when I want to go somewhere really tough and I shouldn’t go there anyway? It chews its way through damn near anything. I’ve climbed up and over and through some pretty tough crap with almost no effort.
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There's a reason used car lots are often full of fairly new Chryslers and failing transmissions is one of them
Fortunately, the tranny is not a weakness on this one. I have the Daimler 6 speed auto and the nearly bulletproof rock crawler transfer case. Dana 44 axles front and rear.
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I had a 1960s CJ-5 around early 1970. I drove it over a stump in a piney woods and it got hung up on the rear end, wheels off the ground. I used a jack and some downed tree limbs and the front wheels pulled me off while Swmbo sat in the front and glared at me.
That had a heater and defroster that if you put your fingers on the defroster vent and used your imagination you could actually think you felt heat.
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That had a heater and defroster that if you put your fingers on the defroster vent and used your imagination you could actually think you felt heat.
That was true of a lot of cars at that time.
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Speaking of older Chryslers my mother had a 73?, maybe 74?, Duster that had manual open and close door on the air vents under the dash. After a heavy rain or going through a car wash you had to make sure your feet were out of the way when you opened them because a gush of water would come out. Not a little but a lot. LOL
She later got hit by two guys drag racing at over 70mph, one took off the front bumper the other nailed it in the side at the trunk causing the Duster to spin around several times. The car was basically totaled but she drove it home. It tracked a bit sideways shall we say.
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I had a 1960s CJ-5 around early 1970. I drove it over a stump in a piney woods and it got hung up on the rear end, wheels off the ground. I used a jack and some downed tree limbs and the front wheels pulled me off while Swmbo sat in the front and glared at me.
That had a heater and defroster that if you put your fingers on the defroster vent and used your imagination you could actually think you felt heat.
I miss the good old days.
I had a CJ7 Renegade with a 304 V8. I drove the crap out of it. The odometer quit rolling at 180k. It was clapped out and some compression on 6 cylinders.
I went to the scrap yard and bought a 360 out of a wrecked wagoneer. then i went to the auto parts store, walked up to the counter and said, " I need a Holley 4 BBL with adapter and gaskets for an AMC 360." They brought it to the counter a few minutes later.
That was one screaming wild jeep. and i knew every bolt and part on it.
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Brought back from the dead….
Many gremlins since then. Jeeps are known for them.
Latest is a random alarm ping (like when the seatbelt is unlatched) accompanied by dash lights flashing on briefly.
No codes on scan, none in memory.
I cleaned battery terminals and thought I fixed it for 1 month no issues. Then it came back.
I noticed that the e-disconnect light for the sway bar always flashed and random others sometimes joined in with it.
I just DC’d the battery and dropped the front skid and pulled the bus for the SB actuator. I have never serviced it. It looked ok, no corrosion and just a hint of water near the seal but not internal. I cleaned it good and put fresh dielectric grease on the seal and contacts.
My battery is aging out and that is another possible culprit.
I’m getting ready to go back to my fishing hole. The one that is a mile from the road and I have to back all the way into the lake to unload the boat (no ramp, primitive trail).
I hate chasing gremlins. I probably shouldn’t drive a Jeep.
I had the same issue after I had a local stereo shop swap out the factory system for an aftermarket one, with my '15 Ruby JKU. Turned out to be they did a *expletive deleted*it job reconnecting the negative battery terminal. I think you're on the right track looking at the battery or terminals.
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I had several MOPAR cars over the years and two Ram Trucks. I had trouble with all of them, continuously. I have a thick head and learn the hard way....over and over. The last one had the transmission fail at 40,000 miles. If I hadn't had a good friend who was the Sales Manager at the dealership I would have ate the cost of replacement. This was shortly after Mercedes/Benz merged with Chrysler. That was a nightmare. I also heard the new Ram trucks still have the same transmission from back then.
Every 4x4 truck of every iteration, foreign or domestic, and I had several of each, had problems. Maybe not my Nissan Frontier so much, but the check engine light was on starting at about 10,000 miles. I finally put a piece of black tape over it. I sold it to a guy after I had it for 15 years, who had to put a new engine in it at 120,000 miles, right after he bought if from me. He was a skilled mechanic with all the toys in his garage, and was not problem for him. He didn't care as I sold it to him for a nice price for him.
They do not. Many Chrysler products now use the ZF 8 speed transmissions and they are excellent.
Many idiots sneered at Fiat buying Chrysler but FCA actually brought a lot of improvements to the products.
The value built stuff is still complete junk though but most value priced stuff is
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^^^
I was actually coming here to say that. The Current gen rams use a ZF 8 speed that is pretty dang bulletproof.
Supposedly there's a twin turbo straight six coming out to replace the Hemi V8. I'll be interested to see what that ends up being about.
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Imagine my surprise when I learned that all voltage regulation for the F-350 goes through the dash. The faulty solder dash. Some internet rando makes a good living resoldering them. Many problems solved.
My little ford focus, no power in even 1st gear, glowing pipe ahead of the cat, all manner of fuel and air codes. Simple fix, fuel filter.
So many systems interconnected and if it is with the powertrain the computer tries to tune itself out of trouble. I think the next car is going to eat hay.
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The only 4x4 I ever had was an '82 Toyota p/u with the 22R engine. It finally threw a rod at about 190K and got "retired". About the last 50K on that truck, it had a cracked block that a friend helped me drop the oil pan and patch a curved 4"+ crack under the #4 cylinder. Despite not holding, the JB Weld slowed the oil loss to a qt. every 4-500 miles. That truck got so old (15 years) that the floor panels on BOTH sides developed fist-sized holes behind both of the front tires. Never had any mechanical problems other than the cracked block and a cracked exhaust pipe at the flange that bolted it to the manifold. We ended up having to weld that sucker twice but it worked.
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Imagine my surprise when I learned that all voltage regulation for the F-350 goes through the dash. The faulty solder dash. Some internet rando makes a good living resoldering them. Many problems solved.
My little ford focus, no power in even 1st gear, glowing pipe ahead of the cat, all manner of fuel and air codes. Simple fix, fuel filter.
So many systems interconnected and if it is with the powertrain the computer tries to tune itself out of trouble. I think the next car is going to eat hay.
What almost all owners and hell almost all mechanics don’t get is you have to have a true knowledge of how the systems operate and relate to each other and approach problems holistically.
Being one of the ones who understands this enabled me to specialize in diagnostics and effective repair.
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What almost all owners and hell almost all mechanics don’t get is you have to have a true knowledge of how the systems operate and relate to each other and approach problems holistically.
Being one of the ones who understands this enabled me to specialize in diagnostics and effective repair.
Always back to the basics, fuel air spark, draw a picture of what you think k the power flow in a system is etc. Trace everything back starting with the simple stuff. Being a lazy troubleshooter I often rely on the idea that if is common equipment I am probably not the first victim. Google!