Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: MillCreek on November 21, 2019, 08:32:06 PM
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-military-seals/trump-and-navy-clash-again-over-seal-commando-who-posed-with-corpse-idUSKBN1XV1LH?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+reuters%2FtopNews+%28News+%2F+US+%2F+Top+News%29
I do not think the President should interject himself into the military justice system in this case.
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I'd tend to agree with that sentiment under normal conditions.
I do not think the persecution of Chief Gallagher should be considered normal.
If for no other reason than the blatant prosecutorial misconduct that took place.
Prior to Trumps actions in the case there had been no mention of stripping the Chief of his Trident. That decision was a petty and vindictive swipe at Trump.
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Yes, this is basic respect my authority stuff. It's Trumps military. You don't go behind your commander's back. I haven't decided if his pardons are good. Part of me thinks they are, war is hell.
Gallagher case, prosecutorial misconduct, over charging, and oops, a witness blew up the case by saying he killed the fighter. Did Gallagher stab the guy? Probably. Did the team practice extremely invasive combat medicine even knowing the insurgent was going to die and their practice wouldn't help that? Most likely. They don't learn that stuff on CPR dummies. But, you bring charges, prove the case. All the stuff trying to take his trident is just sore loser stuff.
The other two cases one maybe a war crime, the other that was already serving time, no.
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If I were in Trump's place, I'd be thinking now that a certain Rear Admiral needed to be "stop lossed" and reassigned, as there was a weather station somewhere in northern Greenland that was desperately in need of his personal expertise for the next six months.
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If I were in Trump's place, I'd be thinking now that a certain Rear Admiral needed to be "stop lossed" and reassigned, as there was a weather station somewhere in northern Greenland that was desperately in need of his personal expertise for the next six months.
A perfect solution for otherwise shitty officers.
I HATE the political class aspect of the military. Anyone north of Captain, short of the occasional Major is automatically suspect.
That being said, the opinion of a once E4 is probably worth what you paid for it.
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A perfect solution for otherwise shitty officers.
I HATE the political class aspect of the military. Anyone north of Captain, short of the occasional Major is automatically suspect.
That being said, the opinion of a once E4 is probably worth what you paid for it.
As I used to tell the Ensigns the only difference between them and an Airman (E3) was the Airman had already been promoted twice, just letting them know their real worth. Once an O5 has had a command billet (probably before) the evolution to political critter is well underway. I am not sure about the other services but there are way too many people with stars on their collars on active duty in the Navy.
bob
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My foster brother left the service after hitting the "political ceiling" after they wouldn't promote him to Admiral after all his years of good service.
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I don't know enough to give an opinion. Other than on the face of it reading into the news stories, it sure seems like a case of, "We'll teach that Trump a lesson for sticking his nose in." At least for this one particular case, given the backstory.
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I don't know enough to give an opinion. Other than on the face of it reading into the news stories, it sure seems like a case of, "We'll teach that Trump a lesson for sticking his nose in." At least for this one particular case, given the backstory.
That is the way it sounds to me. However, I am not sure if that means a housecleaning is in order.
Given the COC pardoned the guy and he is out of the service, you would think the Admirals would let it go. I would think that was the political thing to do.
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I'll take "Undue Command Influence" for $1000, Alex.
Regardless of the reasons the the Navy is holding the review board, it's inappropriate for the CinC to dictate the outcome of an investigation or review before it's completed. If he doesn't want the trident stripped, then he waits for the board to finish, and then overturns it, like he did with the pardon.
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I'll take "Undue Command Influence" for $1000, Alex.
Regardless of the reasons the the Navy is holding the review board, it's inappropriate for the CinC to dictate the outcome of an investigation or review before it's completed. If he doesn't want the trident stripped, then he waits for the board to finish, and then overturns it, like he did with the pardon.
Good info. Of course Trump will always be known for putting mouth in gear before engaging brain. He may be right regarding not stripping the trident, but this is another instance where he might have been better off putting the twitter down and waiting.
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Somehow I suspect the great divide we see across the country is also found in all the branches of the military.
Everyone is choosing sides, individuals as well as institutions.
Have leftists been waging lawfare in the military? From an outsiders perspective it sure looks like the left has made significant progress in seizing control.
Are our generals and admirals worthy of respect due to what they have accomplished and who they are or is it like the presidency, where we are supposed to respect the institution?
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In a related story, the NYTimes and NBC are fake news again:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/11/23/eddie-gallagher-navy-secretary-denies-resignation-threat-trump/4284754002/
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Have leftists been waging lawfare in the military? From an outsiders perspective it sure looks like the left has made significant progress in seizing control.
Are our generals and admirals worthy of respect due to what they have accomplished and who they are or is it like the presidency, where we are supposed to respect the institution?
Our Generals and Admirals are human. Some got where they are by being great leaders, and some got there by being canny and political, some were in the right place at the right time, and most were some combination of all of that. You should absolutely decide what respect to give them based on their accomplishments. At a minimum, they completed some very tough schools, showed the ability to think and problem solve, and lead US Service Members.
Just in general you should never extend some special institutional respect to individuals. The military has it's share of aholes, criminals and commies.
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Are our generals and admirals worthy of respect due to what they have accomplished and who they are or is it like the presidency, where we are supposed to respect the institution?
Some flag officers no doubt deserve some respect for what they have accomplished but I suspect far more are political hacks who have been promoted more by working the system than due to their individual merits and accomplishments. The latter rate a salute for the uniform, but no particular respect for the person wearing it.
I was in the 4th Infantry Division in Vietnam. I never heard anyone say anything complimentary about our commending general (whose name I don't even remember.)
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/24/us/politics/navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resign.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
It looks as though the Secretary of the Navy is on his way out.
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And he's gone.
https://www.kgw.com/article/news/nation-world/navy-seal-murder-case-secretary-fired/507-55dc8ca2-0494-439a-9248-866d609b2995
His resignation has been submitted and accepted.
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Saw that coming.
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There is a chain of command, which was drilled into us during Army Basic Training. It doesn't take a lot of intelligence to figure out that it's not a smart career move to buck the Commander-in-Chief.
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I'll take "Undue Command Influence" for $1000, Alex.
Regardless of the reasons the the Navy is holding the review board, it's inappropriate for the CinC to dictate the outcome of an investigation or review before it's completed. If he doesn't want the trident stripped, then he waits for the board to finish, and then overturns it, like he did with the pardon.
I don't know. Observing Trump for a while, if it isn't illegal and only customary, he may have wanted to shortstop the glee and joy of the Trump Bad contingent. Doing it after it was accomplished would be like having it on page 63 of the gardening section.
The iron is hot, so strike it now.
Seems that way to me, given his apparent magic in dealing with the Trump Bad contingent.
Terry
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I don't know. Observing Trump for a while, if it isn't illegal and only customary, he may have wanted to shortstop the glee and joy of the Trump Bad contingent. Doing it after it was accomplished would be like having it on page 63 of the gardening section.
Seems that way to me, given his apparent magic in dealing with the Trump Bad contingent.
Terry
UCI is more of a problem when the commander pressures for a guilty verdict, and can lead to a conviction being overturned on appeal. I don't know that there's even a precedent for a commander pushing for acquittal or dropping the charges. What would the remedy be, anyway? Double jeopardy would apply. (IANAL, and especially not a military lawyer)
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Leave it to the NY Times to spin it against Trump. From the NYT link provided earlier:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/24/us/politics/navy-secretary-richard-spencer-resign.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
The ousting of Mr. Spencer, first reported by The Washington Post, is the latest turn in an extraordinary story of how Mr. Trump has angered and alienated his own senior military leadership over his interference in how three American service members accused of war crimes have been treated.
The article in Stars & Stripes seems to paint a different picture:
https://www.stripes.com/news/navy/dod-chief-asks-for-navy-secretary-s-resignation-over-private-proposal-in-navy-seal-s-case-1.608539
Apparently [now former] Secretary Spencer tried to cut a deal behind the back of his own boss, offering a "quid pro quo" to Trump while taking a different stance in public, and not telling the SecDef about the deal he had discussed with the C-i-C. The Stars & Stripes article does not appear to suggest even a hint that the senior military officials are "angered and alienated."
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UCI is more of a problem when the commander pressures for a guilty verdict, and can lead to a conviction being overturned on appeal. I don't know that there's even a precedent for a commander pushing for acquittal or dropping the charges. What would the remedy be, anyway? Double jeopardy would apply. (IANAL, and especially not a military lawyer)
There absolutely is precedent. See the entire "DOD doesn't prosecute Sexual assault/harassment" bruhaha of the last several years. Depending on when the UCI happened they go back and run the service members through the system, either NJP (like this Trident Review Board) or full on Courts Marshal. UCI to drop or stop an investigation is a HUGE deal in the military right now. We have dedicated Officer Professional Development classes on it.
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https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2019/11/25/fire-the-admirals-to-encourage-the-others-n2556977?fbclid=IwAR28YO4S722UYlEcHd_bEJjzv2rqtD2qUhWJ-Jd2CDbFOP1UaVUs5tKXBtg
Interesting read.
Paints the passive aggressive approach some in high positions in the military have employed in a different light.
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IMO, one of Trumps biggest mistakes was not unilaterally replacing every Obama appointee he has the authority to replace on his first full.day in office.
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There absolutely is precedent. See the entire "DOD doesn't prosecute Sexual assault/harassment" bruhaha of the last several years. Depending on when the UCI happened they go back and run the service members through the system, either NJP (like this Trident Review Board) or full on Courts Marshal. UCI to drop or stop an investigation is a HUGE deal in the military right now. We have dedicated Officer Professional Development classes on it.
Well, I'm glad I put the "I don't know what I'm talking about" disclaimer. :laugh: I knew there were institutional cover-ups. I didn't know commanders personally got involved to squelch investigations. And double jeopardy would only apply if there was an acquittal.
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IMO, one of Trumps biggest mistakes was not unilaterally replacing every Obama appointee he has the authority to replace on his first full.day in office.
+ bazillion.
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Quote from: RoadKingLarry on Today at 09:04:42 AM
IMO, one of Trump's biggest mistakes was not unilaterally replacing every Obama appointee he has the authority to replace on his first full day in office.
I was surprised to keep seeing "an Obama appointee" with respect to people on his staff. Then I figured, well, he knows the government must go on, in spite of any "new broom sweeps clean" cliches.
So I guess he was smart to allow things to proceed seamlessly until someone made a mistake, then it's "ass, meet boot."
I mean, let's face it.... his whole election "miracle" was based on making major changes in governmental philosophy, but we'd better take it easy on draining the swamp all at once and risk losing some valuable species.
Terry
Edited to correct typo "rake" to "take."
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Quote from: RoadKingLarry on Today at 09:04:42 AM
I was surprised to keep seeing another "an Obama appointee" with respect to people on staff. Then I figured, well, he knows the government must go on, regardless of any "new broom sweeps clean" cliches.
So I guess he was smart to allow things to proceed seamlessly until someone made a mistake, then it's "ass, meet boot."
I mean, let's face it.... his whole election "miracle" was based on making major changes in governmental philosophy, so let's take it easy on draining the swamp all at once.
Terry
Maybe draining a swamp is like pumping out a flooded basement. You can't pump all the water out at once or the walls can collapse.
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https://townhall.com/columnists/kurtschlichter/2019/11/25/fire-the-admirals-to-encourage-the-others-n2556977?fbclid=IwAR28YO4S722UYlEcHd_bEJjzv2rqtD2qUhWJ-Jd2CDbFOP1UaVUs5tKXBtg
Interesting read.
Paints the passive aggressive approach some in high positions in the military have employed in a different light.
Somewhere on youtube is a talk by Victor David Hansen speech where he makes the point that we should fire more generals and admirals. His point was we used to do it all the time and it wasn't necessarily a career ending event. He mentioned several during WWII that worked their way back into command and did better later in the WWII.
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Somewhere on youtube is a talk by Victor David Hansen speech where he makes the point that we should fire more generals and admirals. His point was we used to do it all the time and it wasn't necessarily a career ending event. He mentioned several during WWII that worked their way back into command and did better later in the WWII.
That's the difference between a garrison military and a war military.
I could write a thesis on the ills that a zero defect, risk adverse leadership brings ANY enterprise, much less one whose job it is to break things. We could start with reflective belts, and end with ramming freighters.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gallagher-video.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Interesting comments from the personnel who served with Chief Gallagher.
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The way you phrase it makes it sound like corroboration of previous accusations instead of the same ones restated by the same people.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/us/navy-seals-edward-gallagher-video.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
Interesting comments from the personnel who served with Chief Gallagher.
Echoing Cordex.
From the article:
Platoon members said they saw Chief Gallagher shoot civilians and fatally stab a wounded captive with a hunting knife. Chief Gallagher was acquitted by a military jury in July of all but a single relatively minor charge, and was cleared of all punishment in November by Mr. Trump.
So the end result of all their traumatic testimony was a gigantic fur ball -- nothing, nada, rien, nichts, nic, ничего, niente. I'm pretty sure the same rule underlies the UCMJ as underlies civilian law: innocent until proven guilty. This article in the Times is disgraceful -- they lost the case in court, so now they're retrying it in the court of public opinion. That's despicable.
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To be fair, it is absolutely possible that everything is as has been presented and Gallagher is a stone cold murderer. Regardless, I'm not sure I'd give much credence that the trial was either originally intended to, or ultimately determined Gallagher's guilt or innocence. Many thumbs on both sets of scales in that case.
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This article in the Times is disgraceful -- they lost the case in court, so now they're retrying it in the court of public opinion. That's despicable.
Its the NYT, propaganda is what they do.