Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: cordex on January 15, 2020, 11:45:34 AM
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Bernie is a bad candidate for his avowed policies, not because a supporter is a loon with fantasies of violent revolution. Unless Bernie and this goon were chatting policy or something I’m inclined to pass this off as nutpicking. If we found a low key Nazi working some local job at the Trump campaign I wouldn’t think Trump was a Nazi.
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Bernie is a bad candidate for his avowed policies, not because a supporter is a loon with fantasies of violent revolution. Unless Bernie and this goon were chatting policy or something I’m inclined to pass this off as nutpicking. If we found a low key Nazi working some local job at the Trump campaign I wouldn’t think Trump was a Nazi.
Generally agree, but now that the story has become public, it begs the question - is the guy STILL working for Bernie, or has he resigned/been fired?
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Bernie is a bad candidate for his avowed policies, not because a supporter is a loon with fantasies of violent revolution. Unless Bernie and this goon were chatting policy or something I’m inclined to pass this off as nutpicking. If we found a low key Nazi working some local job at the Trump campaign I wouldn’t think Trump was a Nazi.
Stop leaving rhetorical clubs on the ground instead of picking them up and using them to beat your opponent.
The overwhelming percentage of voters are not moved or motivated by rational discourse or dialectic.
Not using this to damage Bernie is an unforced error.
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Generally agree, but now that the story has become public, it begs the question - is the guy STILL working for Bernie, or has he resigned/been fired?
As far as I know this just came out, so I'll give them a little time. But yeah if Bernie says: "This fella represents the best of us, and our campaign stands behind his violent rhetoric," then I'll certainly change my tune.
Stop leaving rhetorical clubs on the ground instead of using it to beat your opponent.
The overwhelming percentage of voters are not moved or motivated by rational discourse or dialectic.
Not using this to damage Bernie is an unforced error.
I know, I know. Anyone who doesn't play as dirty and dishonestly as some on the other side, or anyone who dares to have principles that they apply uniformly are ineffectual *let's not go there* on the so called right who can't call themselves conservatives because they have conserved nothing. That about right?
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I wouldn't expect Bernie Sanders to support the guy. Even if he thought the Gulags were a good idea he wouldn't say so publicly. However, when it comes to authoritarian Leftists, they generally don't accept the fact that everyone won't agree with them. So then what?
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Generally agree, but now that the story has become public, it begs the question - is the guy STILL working for Bernie, or has he resigned/been fired?
Promoted to head of mid-western organizing.
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As far as I know this just came out, so I'll give them a little time. But yeah if Bernie says: "This fella represents the best of us, and our campaign stands behind his violent rhetoric," then I'll certainly change my tune.
I know, I know. Anyone who doesn't play as dirty and dishonestly as some on the other side, or anyone who dares to have principles that they apply uniformly are ineffectual *let's not go there* on the so called right who can't call themselves conservatives because they have conserved nothing. That about right?
There is nothing dirty or dishonest about revealing that he attracts communists as well as employs them.
It's not dirty, it's a friggin lay-up.
Stop giving the enemy the benefit if the doubt.
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There is nothing dirty or dishonest about revealing that he attracts communists as well as employs them.
It is dishonest to claim that the nuttiest fringe of a group represent the whole. It is dishonest and dirty when they do it, and it is dishonest and dirty when you do it. Bernie is plenty nutty to label himself through his own words and actions.
Stop giving the enemy the benefit if the doubt.
How about you stop behaving like the enemy?
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Stop leaving rhetorical clubs on the ground instead of picking them up and using them to beat your opponent.
The overwhelming percentage of voters are not moved or motivated by rational discourse or dialectic.
Not using this to damage Bernie is an unforced error.
Correct. How does anyone disagree with this?
It's entirely possible to hang both Sanders' policies and his unhinged hangers-on about his neck. Plus, you reach more people. A lot of people will just tune out the boring policy discussions.
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Correct. How does anyone disagree with this?
It's entirely possible to hang both Sanders' policies and his unhinged hangers-on about his neck. Plus, you reach more people. A lot of people will just tune out the boring policy discussions.
Okay. So does Trump get to answer for all of his nuttiest supporters?
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Okay. So does Trump get to answer for all of his nuttiest supporters?
If they are working for and paid by him, sure.
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If they are working for and paid by him, sure.
Are you sure you want to set the bar there?
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Okay. So does Trump get to answer for all of his nuttiest supporters?
And that would be different from what has been going on since he got in the race how?
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Are you sure you want to set the bar there?
Yes, I think any politician should account for the views that the paid employees of his campaign spout.
That doesn't mean that I automatically assume he holds those same views, but it seems a pretty low bar, given how schools/churches/businesses are usually judged by what their employees say.
You think that if a 21 year old NRA employee started spouting off publicly about how minorities are the problem and we need to put them all in cages, he would not be fired forthwith and his views completely disavowed by the NRA?
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First off, this is Project Veritas, and they're pretty good at what they do and how they release stuff. I'm hoping that after Bernie reacts they'll release another video showing the rot going higher. That said, I'm going to address this based on what we know now.
And that would be different from what has been going on since he got in the race how?
Yeah, kind of my point. Oh wait, are you defending the MSM because you think that is a fair and righteous tactic?
Yes, I think any politician should account for the views that the paid employees of his campaign spout.
That doesn't mean that I automatically assume he holds those same views, but it seems a pretty low bar, given how schools/churches/businesses are usually judged by what their employees say.
You think that if a 21 year old NRA employee started spouting off publicly about how minorities are the problem and we need to put them all in cages, he would not be fired forthwith and his views completely disavowed by the NRA?
Let's take that example, but make it even closer to this situation. The young NRA employee spouted off racist crap but not in public - in private but secretly on camera. He's obviously going to be quickly fired. Would that make all NRA employees racist? Would that make NRA supporters racist? Would that be an indication that the Second Amendment tends to attract racist jerks? Would it be a condemnation of all people who support the causes that the NRA supports? Would that make candidates supported by the NRA racist? Would that make you racist? How far does the taint of a bad personal belief go? Yea unto the seventh generation?
Just looking at people related to his campaign I have no doubt we could find some jerks. Let's say one comes to light and gets fired ... what does that say about Trump? Would you vote for someone else if that were to happen?
From a pragmatic standpoint you guys might be right. Maybe it would be more effective to lie to people and tell them that Bernie wants to put people against the wall and shoot them because that is what this supporter wants. I think more likely you'll convince a few not real bright people, get patted on the back by people who already agree with you, and provide evidence to people who disagree with you that you're dishonest. I've seen so many blatantly dishonest "news" stories that I have trouble putting much faith in most reporting these days. Push too many lies and people are likely to start to see you in the same way.
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Okay. So does Trump get to answer for all of his nuttiest supporters?
The comparison seems (to me) dangerously naïve. Sanders, unlike Trump, has spent a lifetime espousing the kind of authoritarian, socialist policies that have a history of resulting in exactly what his underling was calling for. What would be a comparable policy goal for Trump and his supporters? I very much doubt there are any.
Also, we have no reason to think this was Sanders’ nuttiest supporter.
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Let's take that example, but make it even closer to this situation. The young NRA employee spouted off racist crap but not in public - in private but secretly on camera. He's obviously going to be quickly fired. Would that make all NRA employees racist? Would that make NRA supporters racist? Would that be an indication that the Second Amendment tends to attract racist jerks? Would it be a condemnation of all people who support the causes that the NRA supports? Would that make candidates supported by the NRA racist? Would that make you racist? How far does the taint of a bad personal belief go? Yea unto the seventh generation?
As a counter-point: Where is any story announcing the violence-loving, mass-murder day-dreaming anarcho-communist been fired?
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=kyle+jurek+fired
Funny how I don't find a SINGLE story stating he was fired. I'd kind of think that should be job #1 if you're going to claim his views don't represent yours.
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From a pragmatic standpoint you guys might be right. Maybe it would be more effective to lie to people and tell them that Bernie wants to put people against the wall and shoot them because that is what this supporter wants. I think more likely you'll convince a few not real bright people, get patted on the back by people who already agree with you, and provide evidence to people who disagree with you that you're dishonest. I've seen so many blatantly dishonest "news" stories that I have trouble putting much faith in most reporting these days. Push too many lies and people are likely to start to see you in the same way.
Um, how is it dishonest to draw attention to a political extremist, of an extremist party, within a political extremist’s campaign organization? ???
That you disagree with the tactic I get, but you can't call it dishonest.
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https://babylonbee.com/news/sanders-clarifies-his-gulags-will-be-democratic-gulags
:angel:
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I'm still waiting for the mainstream media to ask Bernie if he has knowingly hired revolutionary communists or antifa members.
Shouldn't he have to disavow this guy and all revolutionary communists?
Isn't it the peoples right to know 😉
Trump had to disavow white supremacy, white nationalism, the KKK multiple times.
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The comparison seems (to me) dangerously naïve. Sanders, unlike Trump, has spent a lifetime espousing the kind of authoritarian, socialist policies that have a history of resulting in exactly what his underling was calling for. What would be a comparable policy goal for Trump and his supporters? I very much doubt there are any.
Also, we have no reason to think this was Sanders’ nuttiest supporter.
That is a point. Most are assuming this is that guy, but I doubt it. Bernie himself is a leftist extremist so he will tend to attract those people.
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"...leftist extremist..." But you repeat yourself.
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It's not just one nut case, apparently. Project Veritas said on Sean Hannity's radio show today that there will be more drops in the coming days of additional Sanders campaign workers making similar statements.
Fun times ahead, I think. [popcorn]
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It's not just one nut case, apparently. Project Veritas said on Sean Hannity's radio show today that there will be more drops in the coming days of additional Sanders campaign workers making similar statements.
Fun times ahead, I think. [popcorn]
Post-2016 Democrats: "Let's openly embrace socialism, and have thinly-disguised brown shirts in the streets! What could go wrong?"
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First off, this is Project Veritas, and they're pretty good at what they do and how they release stuff. I'm hoping that after Bernie reacts they'll release another video showing the rot going higher.
Here's that next video.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/bernie-campaign-staff-bernies-a-legit-socialist-masquerading-as-a-democratic-socialist
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Sanders, unlike Trump, has spent a lifetime espousing the kind of authoritarian, socialist policies that have a history of resulting in exactly what his underling was calling for.
No, no, no ... none of those were true Socialism. See, if I were in charge ...
I agree with you regarding socialism's historical tendency toward authoritarian violence. That said, I don't believe that everyone who supports a larger government than I want necessarily wants either a socialist society, government control over any particular industry, or the gulags that socialist governments tend to bring. Nor do I believe that every nationalist is a secret Nazi.
What would be a comparable policy goal for Trump and his supporters? I very much doubt there are any.
Do you believe any bad people support Trump? Assuming so, do you believe they support him because they view his policies in the same light as you do?
Also, we have no reason to think this was Sanders’ nuttiest supporter.
Agreed.
Um, how is it dishonest to draw attention to a political extremist, of an extremist party, within a political extremist’s campaign organization? ???
That you disagree with the tactic I get, but you can't call it dishonest.
It is dishonest to claim that someone who has been paid a few bucks to knock on doors or make phone calls in order to raise support for a candidate represents the candidate's beliefs in any meaningful way. You're right, to call him out as an extremist is not dishonest. To imply or state that this low level scumbag is proof that Bernie wants Gulags is what is dishonest.
I'm still waiting for the mainstream media to ask Bernie if he has knowingly hired revolutionary communists or antifa members.
Shouldn't he have to disavow this guy and all revolutionary communists?
Seems reasonable.
All that said ... today is two days since this came out ... so ...
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No, no, no ... none of those were true Socialism. See, if I were in charge ...
I agree with you regarding socialism's historical tendency toward authoritarian violence. That said, I don't believe that everyone who supports a larger government than I want necessarily wants either a socialist society, government control over any particular industry, or the gulags that socialist governments tend to bring. Nor do I believe that every nationalist is a secret Nazi.
Do you believe any bad people support Trump? Assuming so, do you believe they support him because they view his policies in the same light as you do?
Agreed.
It is dishonest to claim that someone who has been paid a few bucks to knock on doors or make phone calls in order to raise support for a candidate represents the candidate's beliefs in any meaningful way. You're right, to call him out as an extremist is not dishonest. To imply or state that this low level scumbag is proof that Bernie wants Gulags is what is dishonest.
Seems reasonable.
All that said ... today is two days since this came out ... so ...
So, two days since his clear preference for violence has been exposed, AAAAND:
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=kyle+jurek+fired
Hmm.... CLEARLY this shows how seriously the campaign takes calls for violence and political retribution.
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The music makes the video. :laugh:
Side note: I commented here a while back that Bernie Sanders reminded me of Larry David. From something I read a few days ago, they are, in fact, related. :rofl:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1217632464929116161
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So, two days since his clear preference for violence has been exposed, AAAAND:
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=kyle+jurek+fired
Hmm.... CLEARLY this shows how seriously the campaign takes calls for violence and political retribution.
Since CNN clearly sided with the Warren campaign to go after Sanders, maybe they will target CNN? ...that would be entertaining to a point.
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Biden wants to make sure he has Latinos - like Beto O'Rourke - in his cabinet.
https://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/01/16/joe-biden-promises-there-will-be-latinos-in-his-cabinet-and-white-house-including-maybe-beto-orourke/
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All that said ... today is two days since this came out ... so ...
Now three.
Still don't think Bernie wants gulags (despite the ideology he is possessed by naturally tending toward them) however his unwillingness to immediately address this is telling.
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"Still don't think Bernie wants gulags..."
Stalin didn't want gulags either...
They were just necessary.
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I want to see a pushup contest between Tulsi and "I'll take him out back and beat him up" Biden.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/tulsi-gabbard-wins-push-up-contest-new-hampshire
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Sanders, unlike Trump, has spent a lifetime espousing the kind of authoritarian, socialist policies that have a history of resulting in exactly what his underling was calling for.
What would be a comparable policy goal for Trump and his supporters? I very much doubt there are any.
Do you believe any bad people support Trump? Assuming so, do you believe they support him because they view his policies in the same light as you do?
I’m not sure what that has to do with anything, but would you mind answering my question?
Um, how is it dishonest to draw attention to a political extremist, of an extremist party, within a political extremist’s campaign organization?
That you disagree with the tactic I get, but you can't call it dishonest.
It is dishonest to claim that someone who has been paid a few bucks to knock on doors or make phone calls in order to raise support for a candidate represents the candidate's beliefs in any meaningful way. You're right, to call him out as an extremist is not dishonest. To imply or state that this low level scumbag is proof that Bernie wants Gulags is what is dishonest.
Is this some kind of performance art, where you dishonestly accuse other people of dishonesty? Unless you can give us chapter and verse of someone here, or at Veritas, saying we should spread lies about Bernie Sanders, you’re going to have to look in the mirror to find dishonesty.
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Is this some kind of performance art, where you dishonestly accuse other people of dishonesty? Unless you can give us chapter and verse of someone here, or at Veritas, saying we should spread lies about Bernie Sanders, you’re going to have to look in the mirror to find dishonesty.
So the intent was not to condemn Bernie as sharing this dude's extremist opinion by association?
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So the intent was not to condemn Bernie as sharing this dude's extremist opinion by association?
You're dodging again. Please answer the questions I've already posed to you.
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You're dodging again. Please answer the questions I've already posed to you.
I'm not dodging at all, and if I've failed to answer your disingenuous questions to your satisfaction I'm happy to try again.
Sanders, unlike Trump, has spent a lifetime espousing the kind of authoritarian, socialist policies that have a history of resulting in exactly what his underling was calling for.
What would be a comparable policy goal for Trump and his supporters? I very much doubt there are any.
You correctly point out that leftist extremism has a very dark past. Like you, I believe that were Bernie to implement his flavor of socialism it would be likely to lead to similar failures, authoritarianism, and collapse because I see those failures as inherent to the concept. However, unlike the violence-seeking underling I do not believe that Bernie believes that his policies would result in violence nor desires that. I believe that is an important distinction.
To answer your question Trump publicly supports policies which (like Bernie) he believes would be net positives but which also have a significant possibility and history of resulting in bad to horrific outcomes. His chaotic middle-east policy, for one. Brinkmanship as the basis for foreign relations for another.
Someone supporting Trump who laughingly advocates a shooting war with China or Iran might be an apt comparison to Bernie's flunky. The point being that neither Trump nor Bernie actually believe the worst might come about as the result of their policies or they probably wouldn't still hold them. Trump believes he can continue to get away with his bluffs and interventions without escalating to full-blown conflict, and Bernie believes he can Denmark us without Venezuelaing us so I think both are operating in good faith. Someone advocating American Gulags or nukes over Beijing is clearly not.
Um, how is it dishonest to draw attention to a political extremist, of an extremist party, within a political extremist’s campaign organization? ???
As I thought I already made clear, if the purpose was to condemn the low-level flunky for his personal views, or separately if you wish to condemn Bernie for his own actual policies there is no dishonesty. If the purpose is to smear Bernie with the beliefs of the extremist supporter (as has been routinely done with Trump, the NRA, the Republican Party etc.) then it is dishonest.
Which were you trying to do?
All that said, at this stage I think we can safely criticize Bernie for his inaction since the revelation.
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You sit awfully high on that horse for someone who ascribes evil motives before asking questions.
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You sit awfully high on that horse for someone who ascribes evil motives before asking questions.
So the intent was not to smear Bernie by association?
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So the intent was not to smear Bernie by association?
No intent needed. People are judged by the people they surround themselves with all the time. They are also judged by their followers. Both reflect on who they are for better or worse. That is just human nature as well as politics. Acting like that is some sort of wrong is silly.
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No intent needed. People are judged by the people they surround themselves with all the time. They are also judged by their followers. Both reflect on who they are for better or worse. That is just human nature as well as politics. Acting like that is some sort of wrong is silly.
A voice of reason. Thank you.
All that said, at this stage I think we can safely criticize Bernie for his inaction since the revelation.
Something we could never have done, if people like Veritas (or Ron, or makattak) hadn't been so "dishonest" as to raise the issue.
I notice you couldn't cite any examples of dishonesty. So why make those accusations?
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No intent needed. People are judged by the people they surround themselves with all the time.
Do you feel that President Trump has a particularly good track record when it comes to the people he surrounds himself with? And I'm not talking about someone who works for his company or campaign, I mean actual close advisers.
They are also judged by their followers.
Sure, sure. So you (and fistful, and Ron, and so forth) condemn Trump because David Duke and Richard Spencer have supported him, right?
Both reflect on who they are for better or worse. That is just human nature as well as politics.
Of course, to a point. But there are also nutjobs in every group.
Something we could never have done, if people like Veritas (or Ron, or makattak) hadn't been so "dishonest" as to raise the issue.
Oh bull. I've never said it is dishonest to raise as an issue any more than it would be dishonest to raise as an issue if Trump had a Nazi supporter. I brought up dishonesty because Ron was talking about using this guy as a rhetorical club to beat Bernie with before a day had even passed, and of course you jumped on board with that as well. Plus there is the hypocrisy of judging your political opponents by one standard and your political allies by a completely different one.
If I misread him and all he intended was "bring the issue up so that Bernie could address it (or not) and we could judge by that reaction" then I would be happy to apologize.
I notice you couldn't cite any examples of dishonesty. So why make those accusations?
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Exactly which accusations do you imagine I made? Yes, I accused Ron of favoring dishonest and dirty political tricks and mocking principled behavior because he has long advocated that.
Besides that, which of these do you believe is an accusation?
It is dishonest to claim that the nuttiest fringe of a group represent the whole. It is dishonest and dirty when they do it, and it is dishonest and dirty when you do it.
From a pragmatic standpoint you guys might be right. Maybe it would be more effective to lie to people and tell them that Bernie wants to put people against the wall and shoot them because that is what this supporter wants. I think more likely you'll convince a few not real bright people, get patted on the back by people who already agree with you, and provide evidence to people who disagree with you that you're dishonest.
It is dishonest to claim that someone who has been paid a few bucks to knock on doors or make phone calls in order to raise support for a candidate represents the candidate's beliefs in any meaningful way. You're right, to call him out as an extremist is not dishonest. To imply or state that this low level scumbag is proof that Bernie wants Gulags is what is dishonest.
And speaking of dodging questions you're continuing to do a fine job.
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There is nothing dirty or dishonest about revealing that he attracts communists as well as employs them.
It's not dirty, it's a friggin lay-up.
Stop giving the enemy the benefit if the doubt.
Bernie is a communist.
Letting him define himself is stupid.
Bernie is for all practical purposes a communist.
There is nothing dishonest about pointing out his communist employee/campaign worker.
Conflating that reality with white nationalists not on Trumps payroll and not part of his campaign and smearing Trump using such tenous "connections" might be considered dishonest by some.
In fact Trump has disavowed their ideology publicly multiple times.
Has Bernie been asked to disavow communism and communists?
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Oh bull. I've never said it is dishonest to raise as an issue any more than it would be dishonest to raise as an issue if Trump had a Nazi supporter. I brought up dishonesty because Ron was talking about using this guy as a rhetorical club to beat Bernie with before a day had even passed, and of course you jumped on board with that as well...
You will forgive me if I make no distinction between "raise as an issue" and "rhetorical club." Any raising of the issue will be rhetorical clubbing. That's the nature of a popular election (as opposed to a debate club). Besides, you complained that the issue had even been raised, and that was before any mention of clubbing.
So Ron says, " use as a rhetorical club" and you read it as "lie and smear, even if Sanders disavows the guy." OK, if you want to accuse Ron of that, due to what he's (allegedly) said in the past, then please confine your accusations to Ron. Instead, you just assumed makattak and I are reading Ron's commentary with the same subtext you assume is in there. I absolutely do not agree with Ron on some things, but I'll let him be correct when he is correct.
Plus there is the hypocrisy of judging your political opponents by one standard and your political allies by a completely different one.
Another laughable accusation. When Donald Trump spends his honeymoon in the Third Reich, and then spends decades promoting Nazi politics as a self-identified national socialist, then I will be happy to take Nazis working for his campaign as seriously as I take Mr. Get-Him-to-the-Gulag working for Sanders' campaign. Also, Ron has your number on this one:
There is nothing dishonest about pointing out [Sanders'] communist employee/campaign worker.
Conflating that reality with white nationalists not on Trumps payroll and not part of his campaign and smearing Trump using such tenous "connections" might be considered dishonest by some.
In fact Trump has disavowed their ideology publicly multiple times.
Has Bernie been asked to disavow communism and communists?
When Ron is right, he's right, and he bested you here.
Besides that, which of these do you believe is an accusation?
[groundless, brainless accusations follow]
Yeah, it was those. Those right there.
And speaking of dodging questions you're continuing to do a fine job.
Yeah, I'll answer any reasonable questions you have, when you decide to have some credibility on this particular issue. Have a nice weekend.
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Ya know cordex, this thread is devoted to laughing at Democratic presidential candidates (hence the smiley face icon in front of it). So it's a little weird you would even object to the Gulag Bernie Bro Arsonist being brought up here, and start talking about how we shouldn't make an issue out of it. This ain't the Grand Strategy to Re-elect Trump thread.