Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on April 02, 2020, 08:28:24 PM
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/navy-expected-relieve-captain-who-raised-alarm-about-covid-19-n1175351
When I read the communique from the TR's captain, I thought to myself that he could kiss flag rank goodbye. Now he has been relieved of his command.
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Saw that coming from a mile away.
bob
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Of course Facebook is lit up with Trump relived him of command didn't like him doing this. I don't have the energy to explain to anyone that what the Cap't did is not military protocol.
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Don't know how the Navy does business, but I'd think if one of our warships was all hemmed up with the Commie Cough, we'd want to keep that information on the DL. :facepalm:
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Wasn't the letter, it was the way it came out. I think the decision to take sailors off in Guam is dumb, the island might tip over. But really, Andersen AFB only has so many hospital beds and how about not bring a bunch of disease ashore. TR was my first ship, same for Eric Tank. My memories of boat crud are fond. Makes me wonder if I would be a Wu-Tang flu casualty, my over developed immune system from six cruises of crud would probably go to plaid.
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How do sailors get the Wu Tang Flu when they are at sea on a carrier?
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Port calls in Vietnam. Extremely bad decision.
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Not this virus in particular but the Navy is prime target material for an accidental epidemic or intentional bioweapon attack. All our food comes from local husbanding agents, loaded out on the replenishment ships and Unrepped on. I loved all the new and different fruits, but no way all that stuff is screened.
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Hmmm, Clap, clap, clap, clap :P.
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How do sailors get the Wu Tang Flu when they are at sea on a carrier?
No, no, the Wu Tang Flu is a different ailment. Comes from Staten Island. Spread by swarms of killa bees.
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No no no, the Killer Bees were a World touring Reggae band out of Austin, TX that my cousin played keys/sang and wrote for.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fmusic%2FKillerBees-ScratchTheSurface-Front.jpg&hash=18ddfc8765bb2fa3179cfea5b469b6b0f75613c7)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fmusic%2FKillerBees-ScratchTheSurface-Back.jpg&hash=1567c29da8d63ba24d411a85096cae549be8f859)
:old:
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The captain was in the right, but relief should have been expected. He knew that going in. By his charge to protect his people and based on Operational Risk Management (ORM) he made the correct call. Aviators, which he is, have ORM drilled into them and also a culture where any member of a flight crew is empowered and expected to speak up before the crash. ORM dictates to accept no unnecessary risk. Risk is evaluated based on severity and probability.
Still think the firing was expected and while not right in line with previous actions. Marine O-5 just got fired over the fallout from two lost rifles for example. Good order and discipline is the best reason, let’s nip COs media leaking in the bud.
Still like to know who had the final word on Vietnam port call, not a good idea. Carrier COs don’t just decide where to go on their own.
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No no no, the Killer Bees were a World touring Reggae band out of Austin, TX that my cousin played keys/sang and wrote for.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fmusic%2FKillerBees-ScratchTheSurface-Front.jpg&hash=18ddfc8765bb2fa3179cfea5b469b6b0f75613c7)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fmusic%2FKillerBees-ScratchTheSurface-Back.jpg&hash=1567c29da8d63ba24d411a85096cae549be8f859)
:old:
Any relation to the Be Sharps?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fb/Homers_Barbershop_Quartet.PNG)
This thread ain't gonna drift itself.
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No no no, the Killer Bees were a World touring Reggae band out of Austin, TX that my cousin played keys/sang and wrote for.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fmusic%2FKillerBees-ScratchTheSurface-Front.jpg&hash=18ddfc8765bb2fa3179cfea5b469b6b0f75613c7)
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fmusic%2FKillerBees-ScratchTheSurface-Back.jpg&hash=1567c29da8d63ba24d411a85096cae549be8f859)
:old:
Please tell me Michael is your cousin.
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He managed to get himself off the ship.
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https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/03/826920834/after-outcry-over-navy-captain-relieved-of-command-assurances-he-wont-be-expelle?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3CTKKr480wyuclnXrZYAqKgpztcF_EG09879hH2sHDgG5g-ngjuWeMqbI&fbclid=IwAR0IaQoI1gdXCFFuJOPAelanJlsrew_dyUSM7wW9DKyHf39TzBYuFokifM0
Sure, reassigned to a prestigious post like CO of an automated weather station in the Arctic.
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https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/03/826920834/after-outcry-over-navy-captain-relieved-of-command-assurances-he-wont-be-expelle?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3CTKKr480wyuclnXrZYAqKgpztcF_EG09879hH2sHDgG5g-ngjuWeMqbI&fbclid=IwAR0IaQoI1gdXCFFuJOPAelanJlsrew_dyUSM7wW9DKyHf39TzBYuFokifM0
Sure, reassigned to a prestigious post like CO of an automated weather station in the Arctic.
Good a place as any right now?
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https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/03/826920834/after-outcry-over-navy-captain-relieved-of-command-assurances-he-wont-be-expelle?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR3CTKKr480wyuclnXrZYAqKgpztcF_EG09879hH2sHDgG5g-ngjuWeMqbI&fbclid=IwAR0IaQoI1gdXCFFuJOPAelanJlsrew_dyUSM7wW9DKyHf39TzBYuFokifM0
Sure, reassigned to a prestigious post like CO of an automated weather station in the Arctic.
But on Thursday Modly, who was named acting navy secretary after Richard Spencer was forced out as the Navy's top civilian late last year, said Crozier had shown "poor judgment" by sending his letter by email to up to 30 people, but not to his immediate superior on the warship.
Okay, I didn't catch on that his boss was on the same ship and he went over his head.
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Stanton Hoffman is my cousin. He's the one that got me into playing drums. Stan is still playing here in Shreveport as are his 2 boys, both KILLER drummers. Look up John Hoffman on YouTube or FaceBook. Have two other cousins in the area who are also VERY talented, Jimmy Wooten and his sister Laura.
https://www.facebook.com/john.hoffman.9066
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khqpIYRkWVg
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https://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/captain-crozier-captain-crozier-videos-show-sailors-sending-off-ousted-uss-roosevelt-commander-with-cheers-1.624732
Probably not the optics the navy was looking for...
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Okay, I didn't catch on that his boss was on the same ship and he went over his head.
Maybe he had already talked to his boss and his boss didn't do anything. That's the usual reason why anyone goes over his/her boss's head.
{Edit to add} Looks like the boss has never commanded a ship. https://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/bio.asp?bioID=990
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Maybe he had already talked to his boss and his boss didn't do anything. That's the usual reason why anyone goes over his/her boss's head.
{Edit to add} Looks like the boss has never commanded a ship. https://www.navy.mil/navydata/bios/bio.asp?bioID=990
That is what I was wondering.
Is it common for flag officers to have command over ship groups without going through ship command position? I guess there are lots of paths up the chain.
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That is what I was wondering.
Is it common for flag officers to have command over ship groups without going through ship command position? I guess there are lots of paths up the chain.
Only normal for navies with a massively bloated and useless Admiralty caste.
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I believe it is not uncommon to see aviators in command of carrier strike groups. I looked at a couple current strike group commanders and they are a mix of surface warfare officers and aviators with and without ship commands. Rear Adm Baker commanded a squadron and an air wing so he's checked the usual leadership blocks. Apparently direct ship command isn't a prerequisite though.
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Being a CAG is pretty much the same as a ship command. You have 7-9 subordinate commands, 2,000+ people. His path looks normal and he did a lot of pilot stuff.
Carrier life, I always joked you had to run a memo up the chain just to take a dump. Everything was bureaucracy. On the amphib it was the wild, wild west by comparison. My department head was a prior enlisted O-4 compared to O-5 academy types on the carrier. Enlisted did a lot more. Further up the carrier food chain there were typically at least 6 O-6 loose on the TR ranging from the antique surgeon to reactor O, CAG, CO, XO, some random staff dude. Always an admiral on the loose too. More Os than they know what to do with.
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I'm just wondering how legit this is. My first reaction is knee jerk, the powers that be wouldn't be stupid enough to ignore the Kung Flu on a super carrier, and this guy is just grandstanding to the media. No idea what the reality is.
As an E4, I can imagine all kinds of terrible things happening should I have jumped the chain on anything.
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I put some people publicly on blast on the TR as a newly minted E-5. Yeah, there were repercussions but in the end I was able to air my concerns on the ship's weekly TV show and it helped improve our living conditions. Folk hero. =D You never do something like that in the military and not expect to run into trouble. Or in a packed room of seniors as a first class when they asked me my opinion of their plan I was to implement. Dumbest effing plan I've ever heard was not what my italian master chief or portuguese warrant officer wanted to hear. Everyone actually stepped away from me instantly. So...after 20 minutes of yelling, we did it my way. Pick your battles though. I think the skipper did okay here.
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Asked my foster brother, a former US Navy Commander, his thoughts on this article/the whole situation:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/navy-expected-relieve-captain-who-raised-alarm-about-covid-19-n1175351
Foster Brother: "He risked his career for the safety of those under his command, which I think was the morally right call. He was not afraid to speak truth to power, which is needed when those above you are not responsive in a crisis.
Unfortunately the current Navy leadership was indecisive, or did not want to do anything that might be perceived as going against the Commander in Chief."
Me: "That was kind of my thoughts on the carrier/covid debacle. No one ever likes it when you go outside the Chain Of Command for sure but he was dealing with a time sensitive situation and his people, and everyone they came in contact with, didn't have time to not act while those above played politics/optics."
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As a general rule in both the military and corporate settings, if you embarrass your chain of command in public, your career is going to take a hit.
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And the captain has now tested positive for Covid-19 himself.
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Ouch...
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The acting Secretary of the Navy made a PA broadcast address to the remaining sailors on the ship. Essentially it came down to "BAD SAILORS! YOU SHOULN'T LIKE HIM BECAUSE IT MAKES US LOOK BAD!" in response to their cheering him as he departed.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/acting-navy-secretary-ousted-uss-theodore-roosevelt-captain-stupid-naive-coronavirus
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The acting Secretary of the Navy made a PA broadcast address to the remaining sailors on the ship. Essentially it came down to "BAD SAILORS! YOU SHOULN'T LIKE HIM BECAUSE IT MAKES US LOOK BAD!" in response to their cheering him as he departed.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/acting-navy-secretary-ousted-uss-theodore-roosevelt-captain-stupid-naive-coronavirus
"If he didn’t think, in my opinion, that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, in this day and information age that we live in, then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this," Modly said of Crozier. "The alternative is that he did this on purpose."
“Think about that when you cheer the man of the ship who exposed you to that...I understand you love the guy. It’s good that you love him. But you’re not required to love him,” Modly said, adding the letter penned by Crozier had “sensitive information" regarding the condition of the aircraft carrier.
Should the acting Secretary of the Navy be doing this personally?
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to speak truth to power,
That phrase is a red flag to me. To me, it immediatly pegs that person as a liberal loony.
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That phrase is a red flag to me. To me, it immediately pegs that person as a liberal loony.
And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay; Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.
https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Words/shibboleth
There are many such. Unfortunately, pro-Americans often adopt them, so they lose their shibbolethy-ness. "pro-choice," "social justice," "woman of color," etc.
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That phrase is a red flag to me. To me, it immediatly pegs that person as a liberal loony.
Yep.
Automatically makes me assume the speaker is full of *expletive deleted*it.
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The acting Secretary of the Navy made a PA broadcast address to the remaining sailors on the ship. Essentially it came down to "BAD SAILORS! YOU SHOULN'T LIKE HIM BECAUSE IT MAKES US LOOK BAD!" in response to their cheering him as he departed.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/acting-navy-secretary-ousted-uss-theodore-roosevelt-captain-stupid-naive-coronavirus
Dear Deity of choice! THIS is the guy who is calling Captain Crozier stupid?
"If he didn’t think, in my opinion, that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, in this day and information age that we live in, then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this," Modly said of Crozier. "The alternative is that he did this on purpose."
Let's take that apart:
"If he didn’t think, in my opinion, that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, ..." Double negative. Ignoring that Captain Crozier's thoughts are obviously Captain Crozier's opinions, not Secretary Modly's, so I have no idea why that was interjected ... I believe what Modly meant to say was either, "If he didn't think that this information was going to get out, ..." or ""If he thought that this information wasn’t going to get out into the public, ..."
"... then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this." Okay, you gave us 'A.' Now ... what happened to 'B'?
My vote goes to "He did this on purpose," and my guess is that he did it because his superiors were stonewalling and he felt he had to do something to protect his crew. God bless Captain Crozier.
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"... then he was either A, too naive or too stupid to be a commanding officer of a ship like this." Okay, you gave us 'A.' Now ... what happened to 'B'?
Probably: "... then he was either A, too naïve, or B, too stupid, to be a commanding officer of a ship like this."
A forgivable error, not worth attacking.
See, that's what editors are for.
One thing I would query the writer about in a margin note is the conceptual similarity between "naïve" and "stupid." Substitute, delete, or stet? Perhaps use "and" instead of "or?"
See, now, you ain't never gonna get no computerized editing system to suggest all that nohow.
At least not yet. :rofl:
Terry, 230EN
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Probably: "... then he was either A, too naïve, or B, too stupid, to be a commanding officer of a ship like this."
A forgivable error, not worth attacking.
I disagree. When someone presumes to attack an honorable person for doing an honorable deed, one does not have latitude to commit obvious errors. When one is attacking someone for being stupid, one does not have latitude to commit stupid errors.
"Pot, meet kettle."
See, that's what editors are for.
One thing I would query the writer about in a margin note is the conceptual similarity between "naïve" and "stupid." Substitute, delete, or stet? Perhaps use "and" instead of "or?"
See, now, you ain't never gonna get no computerized editing system to suggest all that nohow.
At least not yet. :rofl:
All the more reason to not put one's own stupidity on public display when attacking someone else for [alleged] stupidity.
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I think I am less concerned about specifically what he said than that he said it at all. Why is he doing a public address to the crew? Shouldn't that be delegated to the flag officer over the carrier group?
And if he still chose to do so, keep it focused on the Navy's expectations of behavior and not about his opinions on their former captain. It seems to me this Naval Secretary is letting his anger show and he should seek to stay above that. He is bringing the focus on his opinions instead of the expected conduct of Naval officers and sailors.
I wasn't in the military so maybe my perspective is off.
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I wasn't in the military so maybe my perspective is off.
I was in the military, and I don't think your perspective is off. I don't even think the admiral should address the crew. If anyone should, IMHO it should be the incoming Captain.
That said, I also think the SecDef acted hastily. He fired the captain apparently without conducting much of any investigation into why the captain felt it was necessary to go outside the chain of command. A guy doesn't get to be captain of a nuclear aircraft carrier by being stupid or naive. Crozier graduated from Annapolis in 1992, so he's a career officer who has been in the Navy for 28 years. He has a master's degree in National Security and Strategic Studies from the Naval war College. He's not a dummy.
The deeper I dig (from the outside -- I have no access to anyone inside the Navy), the more I'm convinced that Crozier tried to work within the chain of command, and finally decided that the chain of command had failed his crew. The SecDef's over the top reaction is just confirmation of this, in my book. It smells to me like the SecDef is protecting the admiral.
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I was in the military, and I don't think your perspective is off. I don't even think the admiral should address the crew. If anyone should, IMHO it should be the incoming Captain.
That said, I also think the SecDef acted hastily. He fired the captain apparently without conducting much of any investigation into why the captain felt it was necessary to go outside the chain of command. A guy doesn't get to be captain of a nuclear aircraft carrier by being stupid or naive. Crozier graduated from Annapolis in 1992, so he's a career officer who has been in the Navy for 28 years. He has a master's degree in National Security and Strategic Studies from the Naval war College. He's not a dummy.
The deeper I dig (from the outside -- I have no access to anyone inside the Navy), the more I'm convinced that Crozier tried to work within the chain of command, and finally decided that the chain of command had failed his crew. The SecDef's over the top reaction is just confirmation of this, in my book. It smells to me like the SecDef is protecting the admiral.
I agree that this statement is an ....interesting leadership choice. I know enough about .mil politics to know there's something going on under the surface here. This story doesn't add up.
I'd also mention that it was SECNAV that relieved CPT Crozier, and SECNAV that made the statement. Secretary Esper does not appear (correctly IMHO) to have gotten involved with the hiring/firing of an individual Navy O6.
I'd really like to know GEN Mattis' take on this though.
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SECDEF has now directed the acting SECNAV to apologize for his remarks about Capt. Crozier being stupid or naive.
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This seems like a giant screw-up all-around. Am I wrong about any of the following? I'm trying to get my head around this.
1. Crozier, apparently, wasn't getting the support he needed from the chain of command. That's very bad.
2. He communicated this in a way that led to the whole world knowing one of our carriers was crippled by a rather serious, communicable, little-understood disease we're not sure how to treat. That's (I think) even worse. Am I wrong?
3. He was cashiered for point 2. Not sure if that was wrong or right.
4. The SecNav berated him publicly, along with those of his former command that cheered for him. That just looks terrible.
5. ???
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This seems like a giant screw-up all-around. Am I wrong about any of the following? I'm trying to get my head around this.
1. Crozier, apparently, wasn't getting the support he needed from the chain of command. That's very bad.
2. He communicated this in a way that led to the whole world knowing one of our carriers was crippled by a rather serious, communicable, little-understood disease we're not sure how to treat. That's (I think) even worse. Am I wrong?
3. He was cashiered for point 2. Not sure if that was wrong or right.
4. The SecNav berated him publicly, along with those of his former command that cheered for him. That just looks terrible.
5. ???
Seems you have the same summary I have taken from this.
I'm of the firm stance that this captain deserves to have been fired AND court-martialed.
I'm glad he cares about his crew. I'm furious that he put the world on notice that our Pacific fleet is now unready.
But, hey. What's to worry? What country would ever think they could attack really quickly, gain their objective and then just hold it once the US finally got up to speed, forcing the US to just accept that as the new order. I mean, what's the chances of that happening?
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I'm glad he cares about his crew. I'm furious that he put the world on notice that our Pacific fleet is now unready.
I don't know that the whole fleet's unready, but it sure doesn't help that the news got spread around.
On the other hand, I'm sure it wasn't a secret that the carrier was having a corona-virus issue. But it sure makes our navy look weak, that we are having a fight over it.
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I'd also mention that it was SECNAV that relieved CPT Crozier, and SECNAV that made the statement. Secretary Esper does not appear (correctly IMHO) to have gotten involved with the hiring/firing of an individual Navy O6.
My bad. Yes, you are correct -- SecNav, not SecDef.
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I'd love to know who's decision it was to hit that port of call, though.
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I'm of the firm stance that this captain deserves to have been fired AND court-martialed.
I'm glad he cares about his crew. I'm furious that he put the world on notice that our Pacific fleet is now unready.
Starting from the same facts, I arrive at a very different conclusion.
Looking at Crozier's record (what we as civilians can see of it), this action seems out of character. That should lead one to ask "Why did he do that?" It does not appear that the SecNav asked "Why?" -- he just fired the guy. Yes, it's bad that the world was put on notice that one of our carriers is down. But ... why was it necessary to send that letter via an open, unclassified channel? I'm not so sure it's Crozier who should be court-martialed. Maybe it's Crozier's direct superior, or maybe his superior, who should be court-martialed.
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This guy was trying to avoid having a mess like this (http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=61357.0) on his hands. He ended up with a different mess.
“I didn’t want to get into a decision where the president would feel that he had to intervene because the Navy couldn’t be decisive,” Modly told me in a telephone call from Hawaii at about 1 a.m. Sunday, Washington time. He continued: “If I were president, and I saw a commanding officer of a ship exercising such poor judgment, I would be asking why the leadership of the Navy wasn’t taking action itself."
Modly explained that his predecessor, Navy Secretary Richard Spencer, “lost his job because the Navy Department got crossways with the president” in the Gallagher case. “I didn’t want that to happen again.” The acting secretary reiterated the point later in the conversation: “I put myself in the president’s shoes. I considered how the president felt like he needed to get involved in Navy decisions [in the Gallagher case and the Spencer firing]. I didn’t want that to happen again.”
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Hmmm ...
“I didn’t want to get into a decision where the president would feel that he had to intervene because the Navy couldn’t be decisive,” Modly told me in a telephone call from Hawaii at about 1 a.m. Sunday, Washington time. He continued: “If I were president, and I saw a commanding officer of a ship exercising such poor judgment, I would be asking why the leadership of the Navy wasn’t taking action itself."
What if the President were to ask why a commanding officer of a nuclear aircraft carrier had to go outside the chain of command to get his crew cared for?
Modly explained that his predecessor, Navy Secretary Richard Spencer, “lost his job because the Navy Department got crossways with the president” in the Gallagher case. “I didn’t want that to happen again.” The acting secretary reiterated the point later in the conversation: “I put myself in the president’s shoes. I considered how the president felt like he needed to get involved in Navy decisions [in the Gallagher case and the Spencer firing]. I didn’t want that to happen again.”
In other words, your decision was based entirely on optics rather than facts. Excellent. Thanks for clearing that up for us.
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And SECNAV has resigned.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/politics/modly-resign-crozier-esper-trump/index.html
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And SECNAV has resigned.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/politics/modly-resign-crozier-esper-trump/index.html
Came here to post the same thing.
His address to the crew getting leaked did him in.
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I'd love to know who's decision it was to hit that port of call, though.
The very same superior officers in his chain of command, all the way up to SecNav and the State Dept., that ignored his early attempts to get his crew the help they needed.
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Came here to post the same thing.
His address to the crew getting leaked did him in.
If He thought that sort of thing wouldn't get leaked he was too stupid or to naive to be SecNav.
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If he thought that sort of thing wouldn't get leaked he was too stupid or to naive to be SecNav.
Notice in his rant to the crew, he doesn't say the captain leaked the info, or that he jumped the chain of command. That means the captain was allegedly stupid or naive to think that his superiors were capable of keeping it secure.
Captain Crozier may or may not have exercised poor judgement; that remains to be seen (you know there will be in investigation.) Sec. Modly's poor judgement and stupidity was on public display, so good riddance to him.
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If He thought that sort of thing wouldn't get leaked he was too stupid or to naive to be SecNav.
What goes around, comes around.
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And SECNAV has resigned.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/07/politics/modly-resign-crozier-esper-trump/index.html
From the article:
Defense Secretary Mark Esper said in a letter that he accepted Modly's resignation Tuesday morning, confirming CNN's earlier reporting that Modly had resigned.
"He resigned of his own accord, putting the Navy and Sailors above self so that the U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt and the Navy, as an institution, can move forward," Esper wrote. "His care for the Sailors was genuine. Secretary Modly served the nation for many years, both in and out of uniform. I have the deepest respect for anyone who serves our country, and who places the greater good above all else. Secretary Modly did that today, and i wish him all the best."
IMHO those things should be said about Captain Brett Crozier before they should be said about Modly. Modly screwed the pooch. Good riddance.
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https://thefederalist.com/2020/04/07/yes-capt-crozier-should-have-been-relieved-of-his-command/
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https://thefederalist.com/2020/04/07/yes-capt-crozier-should-have-been-relieved-of-his-command/
This letter came just weeks after authorizing a port call to a major city in Vietnam (China’s neighbor), one month after Chinese air incursions near our ally of Taiwan, and two months after nearly going to war with Iran. These words and actions demonstrate poor judgment and a mindset of complacency, which has no place commanding one of only ten American aircraft carriers, especially the only one forward-deployed in the 7th Fleet.
That author seems to blame Crozier for the Vietnam port call. With his boss on the same ship, would he have control over that decision?
He also seems to take the attitude that the sailors signed on to serve for good or bad and should have sucked it up and kept going regardless of virus spreading on the ship. Did you get that impression as well?
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He also seems to take the attitude that the sailors signed on to serve for good or bad and should have sucked it up and kept going regardless of virus spreading on the ship. Did you get that impression as well?
I think the point is that the mission comes first, even over personal safety.
I thought the same thing in Bosnia, when the official and oft-repeated policy was that the safety of the troops was the #1 priority. Even as a young, dumb PFC, I could tell that made no sense. If my safety was your first priority, why'd you fly me across the ocean and drive me clear across Croatia, into the middle of a civil war?
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Is losing a command position career-ending now? Or just a setback? (it should be the latter, but maybe that's just during actual wartime)
I don't really have a problem with him losing his command; I have a big problem with SECNAV ridiculing him in front of suboridnates.
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Is losing a command position career-ending now? Or just a setback? (it should be the latter, but maybe that's just during actual wartime)
I don't really have a problem with him losing his command; I have a big problem with SECNAV ridiculing him in front of suboridnates.
Probably a career ender but the Trump got involved so who knows what will happen. God knows the Navy doesn't need another Admiral to further bloat the ranks of Flag Officers.
Acting SecNav was an ass.
bob
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He also seems to take the attitude that the sailors signed on to serve for good or bad and should have sucked it up and kept going regardless of virus spreading on the ship. Did you get that impression as well?
Yes, very much so. Hell, even the British navy did their best to protect the crew against scurvy back at the time of the American Revolution.
I also noted that the author of the article served as a Marine aircraft mechanic and now manages a beverage distributing company. In other words, hardly someone with the qualifications to be the author of an article on this topic for The Federalist. I am really REALLY disappointed that The Federalist ran this clap-trap.
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I agree that the mission comes first, but that assumes 1) they have a mission, and 2) that higher authority is working to be certain they have what they need to be combat capable and not ignoring problems. And the Captain of the vessel should be high enough up the chain that he is informed of what is going on. Could the Captain have been a bit over-concerned about the issue than was warranted? Maybe. We don't know all the details. Just because this virus doesn't affect younger people all that heavily, that does not mean it won't impact their ability to do their jobs.
I don't have an issue with the Captain getting relieved based on what has been said, but I don't think anyone knows enough to condemn him over it. If there was more going on we can't see, it might mean others higher up should also be relieved.
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I agree that the mission comes first, but that assumes 1) they have a mission, and 2) that higher authority is working to be certain they have what they need to be combat capable and not ignoring problems. And the Captain of the vessel should be high enough up the chain that he is informed of what is going on. Could the Captain have been a bit over-concerned about the issue than was warranted? Maybe. We don't know all the details. Just because this virus doesn't affect younger people all that heavily, that does not mean it won't impact their ability to do their jobs.
I don't have an issue with the Captain getting relieved based on what has been said, but I don't think anyone knows enough to condemn him over it. If there was more going on we can't see, it might mean others higher up should also be relieved.
It could be *that's* what all the hoopla is really about; a smoke screen so the admirals can hide.
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It could be *that's* what all the hoopla is really about; a smoke screen so the admirals can hide.
This.
Think about it. An aircraft carrier travels as part of a task group. The captain drives the boat; the admiral controls the task group. Captain Crozier didn't unilaterally authorize a pit stop in Vietnam; that had to be the admiral, and fleet command.
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This.
Think about it. An aircraft carrier travels as part of a task group. The captain drives the boat; the admiral controls the task group. Captain Crozier didn't unilaterally authorize a pit stop in Vietnam; that had to be the admiral, and fleet command.
A carrier is the lead ship in a Carrier Battle Group, the Task Group Commander is usually ensconced in an office at some base somewhere sending out his orders to the battle group.
Port visits go a lot higher than that because you have to get the State Department involved also. You don't just drive a boat around and then decide to pull into somewhere like you would a Sonic.
bob
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I agree that the mission comes first, but that assumes 1) they have a mission, and 2) that higher authority is working to be certain they have what they need to be combat capable and not ignoring problems. And the Captain of the vessel should be high enough up the chain that he is informed of what is going on. Could the Captain have been a bit over-concerned about the issue than was warranted? Maybe. We don't know all the details. Just because this virus doesn't affect younger people all that heavily, that does not mean it won't impact their ability to do their jobs.
I don't have an issue with the Captain getting relieved based on what has been said, but I don't think anyone knows enough to condemn him over it. If there was more going on we can't see, it might mean others higher up should also be relieved.
I'm pretty sure aircraft carriers have missions. They're out there to accomplish certain things.
Do you think the writer was saying that the captain or crew should not care about getting the virus? Why do you read it that way? I took him to mean that the captain let the threat of the virus sideline his carrier.
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"You don't just drive a boat around and then decide to pull into somewhere like you would a Sonic."
Maybe the captain just had a REALLY strong hankering for a cafe da...
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Do you think the writer was saying that the captain or crew should not care about getting the virus? Why do you read it that way? I took him to mean that the captain let the threat of the virus sideline his carrier.
Yes, I think that's exactly what the author was saying. He was saying that the sailors signed up knowing they could be killed, so don't let a little thing like a virus bother you. Suck it up, Buttercup, and take one for the team.
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Yes, I think that's exactly what the author was saying. He was saying that the sailors signed up knowing they could be killed, so don't let a little thing like a virus bother you. Suck it up, Buttercup, and take one for the team.
The following isn't a gotcha. I ask out of ignorance. The questions aren't just for Hawkmoon, but for anyone who can shed some light about what happened, and what should have been done.
I want to know, practically, where you (anyone who wants to answer) and the writer of the Federalist piece disagree about what should have been done. Can you tell me, specifically, which decisions were made that you disagree with, and what you think should have been done differently. Not just about relieving various people of command (or not), but what should the crew have done, or been told/allowed to do? What help should Crozier and his ship have gotten?
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I haven't read the article mentioned above so I can't speak to that but I can speak a little bit on how I feel.
In any position of military leadership there are priorities and they are not hard to figure out: mission, men, self.
His mission and the mission of the Roosevelt is deterrence. China has designs on more than a few islands in the TR area of operations and one of the reasons the TR is there to help keep China from attempting to intimidate their Asian neighbors and walk away with resources that they don't own.
On Mar 31, the TR had 100 men who had tested positive for the Chinese Flu. No deaths, no serious cases. He has confided to some of his friends, he had tested positive for the flu. Before that date and after that date, I'm sure submitted a Personnel Status up and down his chain of command every day. His immediate boss was right there aboard the TR. He had his opinions, but he couldn't accept that HIS opinions were either irrelevant or not beyond his ability to handle.
His mission was to DETER bad acts by our enemies. What he did by trying to undermine the chain and disclosing his email assessment of his ships status to 20+ recipients who did not have a need-to-know was to notify and encourage bad acts by our enemies. He sent 20+ emails with the reasonable expectation the contents of the email would be leaked. He violated OPSEC. He provided China with a window of time to exploit a vulnerability.
Yes, he may have been concerned about the health of his men, but nowhere does it say you can override the commander of your battle group if the seas get rough or if your complement of men isn't 100% the picture of health.
He is an embarrassment to the Navy and all military leaders.
IMO an immediate retirement should be forcefully encouraged. I am sure he will be back in another career before his cover hits the deck.
bob
Now I will read the article and see if it changes my mind.
eta: I read it. I seem to agree.
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Update
416 sailors aboard the aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt have now tested positive for Covid-19, according to Navy officials.
97% of the crew of nearly 5,000 has been tested.
https://www.foxnews.com/world/us-sailor-coronavirus-theodore-roosevelt-icu
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I haven't read the article mentioned above so I can't speak to that but I can speak a little bit on how I feel.
In any position of military leadership there are priorities and they are not hard to figure out: mission, men, self.
His mission and the mission of the Roosevelt is deterrence. China has designs on more than a few islands in the TR area of operations and one of the reasons the TR is there to help keep China from attempting to intimidate their Asian neighbors and walk away with resources that they don't own.
On Mar 31, the TR had 100 men who had tested positive for the Chinese Flu. No deaths, no serious cases. He has confided to some of his friends, he had tested positive for the flu. Before that date and after that date, I'm sure submitted a Personnel Status up and down his chain of command every day. His immediate boss was right there aboard the TR. He had his opinions, but he couldn't accept that HIS opinions were either irrelevant or not beyond his ability to handle.
His mission was to DETER bad acts by our enemies. What he did by trying to undermine the chain and disclosing his email assessment of his ships status to 20+ recipients who did not have a need-to-know was to notify and encourage bad acts by our enemies. He sent 20+ emails with the reasonable expectation the contents of the email would be leaked. He violated OPSEC. He provided China with a window of time to exploit a vulnerability.
Yes, he may have been concerned about the health of his men, but nowhere does it say you can override the commander of your battle group if the seas get rough or if your complement of men isn't 100% the picture of health.
He is an embarrassment to the Navy and all military leaders.
IMO an immediate retirement should be forcefully encouraged. I am sure he will be back in another career before his cover hits the deck.
bob
Now I will read the article and see if it changes my mind.
eta: I read it. I seem to agree.
The way you put it, I can follow and see your point. The way the author wrote it, I disagreed. He started off by blaming the Captain for the port visit in Vietnam which immediately damaged his credibility to me then he went into his "you signed up for this so if you die you die" explanation.
Either way, I think it likely there is more to it that the public won't know about. I don't mean to say the former Captain will end up exonerated. More than likely they will all end up looking poorly.
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Surprise, surprise!
Three other carriers' crews also have COVID-19.
https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2020-04-09/military-warns-of-coronavirus-breakouts-aboard-uss-nimitz-aircraft-carrier
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Lucky us....
Time to call the *expletive deleted*ing Russians and see if they'll just agree to glass china with us. They don't like Chicoms, we don't like Chicoms..
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Only thing I can add from my time on the ship is that any carrier has a medical not really set up for this. Some operating theaters, exam rooms like you would see at your normal GP, some open bay beds and a very little bit of isolation. Chances of making it negative pressure are not good.
So, if I were on any large navy ship now I suppose it would go something like this. There are four eating areas on TR. Forward messdecks, aft messdecks, chiefs mess and wardroom. The main messdecks are high traffic areas on the second deck so would not work for isolating people. Wardroom is on the O3 level and it could make sense, isolate sick people in nearby staterooms, block off traffic in the area, feed them there. Chiefs mess is 3rd deck pretty far aft, could close that, there are nearby berthings to put just sick people in. Medical is 2nd deck in between the two main mess areas, just don't think they have the bed capacity to put people there and transport food to them. For anyone not quarantined the routine is simple and predictable. You will clean and scrub. Then you will do it again. Talk about never letting a crisis go to waste, there are a bunch of folks E-6 to E-9 that this is a dream come true. Paint might not kill corona, but damnit we're gonna find out.
Medical on a large deck amphib is actually better than a carrier but that is because they are planning on wounded Marines, hence the morgue also. Still not really set up for infectious isolation.
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Only thing I can add from my time on the ship is that any carrier has a medical not really set up for this. Some operating theaters, exam rooms like you would see at your normal GP, some open bay beds and a very little bit of isolation. Chances of making it negative pressure are not good.
So, if I were on any large navy ship now I suppose it would go something like this. There are four eating areas on TR. Forward messdecks, aft messdecks, chiefs mess and wardroom. The main messdecks are high traffic areas on the second deck so would not work for isolating people. Wardroom is on the O3 level and it could make sense, isolate sick people in nearby staterooms, block off traffic in the area, feed them there. Chiefs mess is 3rd deck pretty far aft, could close that, there are nearby berthings to put just sick people in. Medical is 2nd deck in between the two main mess areas, just don't think they have the bed capacity to put people there and transport food to them. For anyone not quarantined the routine is simple and predictable. You will clean and scrub. Then you will do it again. Talk about never letting a crisis go to waste, there are a bunch of folks E-6 to E-9 that this is a dream come true. Paint might not kill corona, but damnit we're gonna find out.
Medical on a large deck amphib is actually better than a carrier but that is because they are planning on wounded Marines, hence the morgue also. Still not really set up for infectious isolation.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Aint that the truth, and don't forget about the tile that has to come up, it might be harboring the virus!
bob
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Though Modly later embarrassed and pwned himself, I think he gave a very reasonable explanation for relieving Crozier of command.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/navy-relieve-captain-aircraft-carrier-leak-letter-leadership/story?id=69944944
Modly said the incident with Crozier's letter was "frustrating because of what it does."
"It undermines our efforts -- and the chain of command's efforts -- to address this problem and creates a panic and creates the perception that the Navy is not on the job, the government's not on the job, and it's just not true," he said.
"He's being relieved because to me that demonstrated extremely poor judgment in the middle of a crisis," said Modly. "Because of what it's done, it's has created a firestorm. It's created doubts about the ship's ability to go to sea if it needs to. It's created doubt among the families, about the health of their sailors."
Modly said he had no information to indicate that Crozier personally leaked the letter, but noted that in emailing it to 20-30 people he provided an opportunity for the letter to be leaked.
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There's a link on foxnews website's homepage to a video titled
USS Roosevelt sailor dies after battling COVID-19
A U.S. Navy sailor assigned to the USS Roosevelt has died from coronavirus.
But I can't get the page to load right
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/politics/theodore-roosevelt-sailor-coronavirus/index.html
Sailor aboard USS Theodore Roosevelt dies of coronavirus
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/13/sailor-uss-roosevelt-dies-coronavirus-183164
Sailor from USS Theodore Roosevelt dies of coronavirus
Four additional sailors from the ship were admitted to the hospital over the weekend, according to Navy spokesperson Cmdr. Clay Doss. They are all in stable condition; none is in the ICU and none require a ventilator, he said.
The sailor, whose name is being withheld until family is notified, was an older member of the crew, according to a senior defense official.
The sailor tested positive for the coronavirus on March 30 and was removed from the ship and placed in an isolation house on Naval Base Guam with four other crew members, according to the Navy.
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https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/13/politics/theodore-roosevelt-sailor-coronavirus/index.html
Sailor aboard USS Theodore Roosevelt dies of coronavirus
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/13/sailor-uss-roosevelt-dies-coronavirus-183164
Sailor from USS Theodore Roosevelt dies of coronavirus
The sailor, whose name is being withheld until family is notified, was an older member of the crew, according to a senior defense official.
"Older member of the crew"
Military retirement is 20 years and few go past that. So the dude was in his 30's, maybe early 40's. Older my ass.
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There are outliers. We had some reservists that used to come to the TR and one had to be pushing 60. Our surgeon on that ship was well past sixty and broken service senior enlisted run into the fifties commonly.
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"Older member of the crew"
Military retirement is 20 years and few go past that. So the dude was in his 30's, maybe early 40's. Older my ass.
Could possibly be older, the Command Master Chief, usually an old fart nearing 30+ years on AD, the Chaplain, the BG Commander (Admiral), Senior Medical Officer and maybe some late bloomers. I worked with a Senior Chief who entered the Navy right before he was too old, he did a career with Flying Tigers Airlines and Northwest then came into the Navy. So there are some out there on AD that could be approaching 50s or older, not a lot, but some. It will be interesting to see how old this guy actually was.
bob
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"Older member of the crew"
Military retirement is 20 years and few go past that. So the dude was in his 30's, maybe early 40's. Older my ass.
Officers can do 25-30 years starting after college.
Lots of folks these days have breaks in service as well. Did 6 when GWOT started, were out for 15 or so , and come back in to finish up.
Then there are reservists that volunteer to do Active tours to augment active duty.
Mandatory retirement age is 60, waiverable to 62, and I know plenty of folks who get close to that.
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Older member of the crew was 41 years old.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/navy-identifies-roosevelt-sailor-who-died-from-coronavirus-outbreak
bob
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So far- 4800 crew, 4500 tested. 600 positive, about 60 percent with no symptoms. 240 with symptoms.
5 admitted to hospital, one dead.
So about as close quarters as possible, 1 out of seven infected, half of those with no symptoms.
Odds are, the unfortunate deceased had other conditions as well. Almost all the younger victims do, if you drill into the stories a bit.
This info fits perfectly with the info from Italy, Virginia, and NYC. The virus is killing the old and the sick, if one is in good health, not diabetic or obese and under 60, it is not worth worrying about.
We don't have a medical crisis- we have a medical excuse for an economic and political crisis.
Today- 397 homeless were tested in Boston. about 150 were positive. None had any symptoms.
It saddens me to see so many frightened people, spurred on by the lying scum media and political grifters, unable to put the numbers together. We are being lied to. Led around like sheep. Mass hysteria.
This is far more widespread than believed, and far less deadly to the general population.
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So far- 4800 crew, 4500 tested. 600 positive, about 60 percent with no symptoms. 240 with symptoms.
5 admitted to hospital, one dead.
So about as close quarters as possible, 1 out of seven infected, half of those with no symptoms.
Odds are, the unfortunate deceased had other conditions as well. Almost all the younger victims do, if you drill into the stories a bit.
This info fits perfectly with the info from Italy, Virginia, and NYC. The virus is killing the old and the sick, if one is in good health, not diabetic or obese and under 60, it is not worth worrying about.
We don't have a medical crisis- we have a medical excuse for an economic and political crisis.
Today- 397 homeless were tested in Boston. about 150 were positive. None had any symptoms.
It saddens me to see so many frightened people, spurred on by the lying scum media and political grifters, unable to put the numbers together. We are being lied to. Led around like sheep. Mass hysteria.
This is far more widespread than believed, and far less deadly to the general population.
Our courageous politicians won't let facts get in the way of government power grabs.
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The captain may be reinstated:
https://theweek.com/speedreads/910885/navy-reportedly-recommends-captain-ousted-over-coronavirus-warning-reinstated
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The captain may be reinstated:
https://theweek.com/speedreads/910885/navy-reportedly-recommends-captain-ousted-over-coronavirus-warning-reinstated
They should not. Not because he is a bad guy, I believe he loves his sailors. But because the message it sends to every other CO. Jump the chain, leak to the press, get rewards. One sailor died. Newsflash, on every deployment I ever went on, including 3 on the TR, someone died, none from combat. From the tragic to the absurd; I think close to twenty people checked out in my 5 years on the TR. If you are a CO you are going to call families of dead sailors. Even as an E-5 fire team leader I knew I was expendable. I knew that personnel casualties I encountered were going to be ignored because moving my teams to where the fire was was more important than a sailor's life. I trained my people to that on my next ship when I led a fifty person repair locker. We are going to save the ship or die trying. Those already hurt or dead can't help me do that, we will help them when we have time. I dressed a fire team including myself when we looked to have a real mainspace boiler fire. I knew my odds were not good if we went down. Calmest and happiest I have been in life. Somehow the 700 gallons of FO that sprayed on the boiler face didn't ignite. Yay.
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Jump the chain, leak to the press,
Did the CO actually leak to the press or did one of the recipients of his email make the leak?
From my limited experience the CO was damned no matter what he did. I strongly suspect that he had made proper reports up the CoC and was being ignored when he strongly believed he had the beginnings of a very serious crisis on his ship and took the measure of going around his immediate superiors that had discounted his concerns.
As things turned out the ship was put in the spot light and action was taken and loss of life was minimized and the CO was relieved of command. Had he not taken those actions and shone a spotlight on the problem it could have gone one of two ways. The virus didn't infect enough of his crew to cripple the ship and after a difficult time things went on, that hardly seems likely. Or the virus could have run rampant on the ship, sickening and killing many of the crew. In that case the CO would have been crucified both professionally and in the court of public opinion and I don't see it as out of the realm of probability that he would have been brought up on charges for neglect.
Sometimes, even when you do the right thing you still get *expletive deleted*ed.
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The virus did sicken many of the crew. One died. Wanna take bets on a 41 year old AO Chief being a smoker? He made the right call if he ran any unit not a strategic US asset. What if he had a SSBN? Screw strategic deterrence, we're going to Guam. Iran getting frisky is a direct result of the carrier leaving the gulf to cover TRs area so that China wouldn't get frisky. And I like the captain. I like most pilots despite them breaking my stuff. I have no doubt I would feel cared for if I was still TR crew. But I saw them relieved for less, even the ones I liked. I respect him for taking action when he had to know he would get fired. But he didn't think it through. On the bright side it got Modly fired, so there is that. All those words the APS language filter won't let me say? Yeah, he is that.
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I think he should be able to rehabilitate his career as far as that goes, but putting him back on the same ship is saying everything he did was correct. IMO, that raises questions about his immediate chain of command and why he went outside of it, or at least that the Navy is questioning his chain of command. I wouldn't expect the Navy to reinstate him even if they did think the Captain was right. (but I have no experience with that sort of military stuff).
On the Sec of the Navy, he was part of saying the Captain should know his emails jumping the chain of command would get leaked then he addresses the crew saying some personal comments about the Captain which he should have expected would be leaked. Odd circumstances there. Not conduct I would expect of someone that high up the chain of command.
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It was my experience while I was in the Navy that in the event of a casualty situation the first order of business, no matter the problem, was the placement of blame, preferably at the lowest level possible. Analytical evaluation of the circumstances, efficacy of the immediate response, finding ways to prevent future occurrences, all of that is meaningless unless someone can be directly blamed for the event.
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It was my experience while I was in the Navy that in the event of a casualty situation the first order of business, no matter the problem, was the placement of blame, preferably at the lowest level possible. Analytical evaluation of the circumstances, efficacy of the immediate response, finding ways to prevent future occurrences, all of that is meaningless unless someone can be directly blamed for the event.
That thinking is old and it seems to be completely out of touch with the way things are done today especially in any high visibility incident. It is much easier to lay the blame on the Skipper and relieve him for "loss of confidence" than it is to do a root cause analysis and find out what is really wrong and fix it.
bob
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Bob, I think you and RKL are really saying the same thing, not the opposite.
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Bob, I think you and RKL are really saying the same thing, not the opposite.
\
Sort of kind of, we are saying the same thing but rather than try to fix at lowest level now days they just seem to go after the skipper or other high ranking individual. Doesn't fix anything but it sure does help keep the Flag Ranks from getting any more bloated.
bob
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https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_f&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1mEtY9QKfF8tSeM4r90v9qotfqJDNejf2ywfRzijgRUmJoCX_-ccvoWkQ#Echobox=1589570244
Some sailors on the carrier get the virus a second time. And you would like to think that getting it once confers some sort of immunity. Maybe not so much.
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There were some Covid survivors (in Korea, I think) that got the disease again, but it was later determined to be more like a second round of symptoms than re-infection. Maybe the jury is still out on immunity.
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https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/nation-politics/sailors-on-sidelined-carrier-get-virus-for-second-time/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_f&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR1mEtY9QKfF8tSeM4r90v9qotfqJDNejf2ywfRzijgRUmJoCX_-ccvoWkQ#Echobox=1589570244
Some sailors on the carrier get the virus a second time. And you would like to think that getting it once confers some sort of immunity. Maybe not so much.
Possibly some error in testing. One of the tests is purportedly giving false positives and false negatives. Or what fistful said, a second round of symptoms.
One report I heard said Australia is now entering autumn in the southern hemisphere and so far, no spike in covid 19 infections is occuring.
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I would be very surprised if the virus didn't confer immunity, but the immunity might be short-lived. (but still measured in years, not weeks) The so-called reinfections were most likely just relapses.
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I would be very surprised if the virus didn't confer immunity, but the immunity might be short-lived. (but still measured in years, not weeks) The so-called reinfections were most likely just relapses.
The common cold is a virus(s). I've had lots of colds over my life, and more than once had a cold, felt better for a few days, then had a relapse. I'm not sure why the MSM and others think we're going to discover a miracle cure ala Star Trek TNG and no one will ever get the beer virus ever again.
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The common cold is a virus(s). I've had lots of colds over my life, and more than once had a cold, felt better for a few days, then had a relapse. I'm not sure why the MSM and others think we're going to discover a miracle cure ala Star Trek TNG and no one will ever get the beer virus ever again.
I've read estimates that there are well over a hundred different viruses that can cause the common cold. If true, then it seems each cold you suffer is likely caused by a different virus, at least until such time that any immunity from previous infections fades.
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The common cold is a virus(s). I've had lots of colds over my life, and more than once had a cold, felt better for a few days, then had a relapse. I'm not sure why the MSM and others think we're going to discover a miracle cure ala Star Trek TNG and no one will ever get the beer virus ever again.
Depends. People do get flu shots every year, although admittedly they're not 100 per cent effective. They may ameliorate the symptoms even if they don't prevent the disease. You can be immunized however, and still transmit the disease, which is why herd immunity is important.
I think there has actually been one (1) virus that we have actually cured, but I don't recall the details. There are very many viruses around we don't even have vaccines for -- yet another reason for herd immunity.
Therepuetics are possible. We have those. Fish tank cleaner is not one of them.
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Depends. People do get flu shots every year, although admittedly they're not 100 per cent effective.
And that's a point the MSM and others don't seem to consider. They seem to think there will be a *cure* or something. Flu shots help with the flu, no doubt, but an 80 year old can still get the flu shot, have a milder case of the flu because of it, but still die from pneumonia complications from the milder flu symptoms.
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Bringing this one back for an update:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/navy-won-e2-80-99t-reinstate-carrier-captain-fired-after-virus-outbreak/ar-BB15IYYo
Captain Crozier is being "fired." Not kicked out of the Navy, not demoted, but he won't get another command assignment. So from now on he'll be driving a desk. My guess is that, at this point, he'll just retire.
The only bright light in this, from my perspective, is that the admiral he reported to (the task force commander) is also being shelved, and won't get his promotion. That's small consolation. We'll probably never know what really happened between them but my guess is that Captain Crozier tried to convince the Admiral that they had a problem, and the admiral blew him off. That's the only logical explanation for a career officer like Crozier to have gone off the reservation as he did.
“When the COVID-19 pandemic was beginning to take hold, there was no formal training in place and the military was responding – like the rest of the world – without clearly defined safety precautions,” Senators Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut and Chris Van Hollen of Maryland said in a statement. “The Navy’s decision now seems to apply a retroactive standard and after-the-fact procedures and practices to justify Captain Crozier’s firing.”
Mark this day on your calendars. This is the first time I have ever agreed with anything Dick Blumenthal has said (and it will probably also be the last).
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From everything I heard at the time, most every military person agreed he would lose his job for jumping the chain of command. At least he isn't getting further punishment.
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From everything I heard at the time, most every military person agreed he would lose his job for jumping the chain of command. At least he isn't getting further punishment.
That was my feelings then and now.
bob
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From everything I heard at the time, most every military person agreed he would lose his job for jumping the chain of command. At least he isn't getting further punishment.
Doesn't make it right, just prevalent.
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Even if it was wrong it got Modly too, so score it as a win. And it wasn't wrong.
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Even if it was wrong it got Modly too, so score it as a win. And it wasn't wrong.
When you coc is being utter *expletive deleted*it to the tune of setting you up to fail (port call during an epidemic) and then ignoring the situation they created all at the cost of actual lives you either accept the malfeasance and thus become complicit in it or you go around them. The skipper went around him. The admiral was wrong, not the skipper. Firing the skipper is unjust and the excuse for it, "because we always do it that way" is a myopic, ignorant, and lazy. Retro-re-"not"-firing him again after all has come out is just tripling down on stupid.
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It wasn't the going around that got him fired, it was the going around to God and everyone in an email blast that he knew was likely to get leaked. Go to the next admiral in the chain, or two up. Not 30 people spread from JBPHH to Washington.
Even if it was wrong it got Modly too, so score it as a win. And it wasn't wrong.
Gotta agree with French G.
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It wasn't the going around that got him fired, it was the going around to God and everyone in an email blast that he knew was likely to get leaked. Go to the next admiral in the chain, or two up. Not 30 people spread from JBPHH to Washington.
I asked a smart retired Army Colonel I know for his opinion on this. He agreed the CAPT Crozier had his heart in the right place. But he disagreed with blasting out an email to numerous recipients on an unclassified system that is almost bound to leak. As he put it..."Except he should have stuck to [classified email]... it's a Commander's friend on subjects like this one IMO."
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It wasn't the going around that got him fired, it was the going around to God and everyone in an email blast that he knew was likely to get leaked. Go to the next admiral in the chain, or two up. Not 30 people spread from JBPHH to Washington.
Gotta agree with French G.
Except he didn't. He wasn't the clown that leaked it to the press. Odds say that is most likely the shitbird admiral in order to muddy the waters and cover his own ass by burning his subordinate. But we actually don't know for sure.
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Except he didn't. He wasn't the clown that leaked it to the press. Odds say that is most likely the shitbird admiral in order to muddy the waters and cover his own ass by burning his subordinate. But we actually don't know for sure.
He didn't leak it to the press, and it might have been the shitbird who did. But he sent it to 30 people, allegedly on an unsecure channel. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have 30 people in his immediate up-chain. (in my huge company there are about 6 people between me and the top, and I think that's too many) I can see bypassing his admiral and sending it to the admiral's boss (whoever that is) and copying, his boss, Sec of Navy, and maybe 2 or 3 others -- on a secure comm line. What he did might have ultimately been the right thing even if it violated protocol, I don't know, but that comes with a price.
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It wasn't the going around that got him fired, it was the going around to God and everyone in an email blast that he knew was likely to get leaked. Go to the next admiral in the chain, or two up. Not 30 people spread from JBPHH to Washington.
From the article:
Gilday said the investigation showed Crozier didn’t intend for the memo to leak, ...
That suggests your supposition that the Captain knew the e-mail was likely to be leaked is incorrect.
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From the article:
That suggests your supposition that the Captain knew the e-mail was likely to be leaked is incorrect.
If you think an email blasted to 30+ recipients was going to stay under wraps I've got a bridge to sell you. ;/
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Does anyone know if the information was officially classified?
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I said it before, every time I deployed on the TR, somebody died. If you don't have the balls to know that going in as a CO in what is pretty much our only non-nuclear strategic deterrence mission then don't be in charge. One person died. My age.
Being at sea in the age of the internet, even seaman Timmy knows what you don't do on e-mail. Doesn't mean he won't do it, but they have a giant kill switch on the satlink. And boy do they not like the occasional wanna be cool kid with an Iridium phone.
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Anyway, the important thing is this got blamed on Trump. Isn't that what matters?
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I said it before, every time I deployed on the TR, somebody died. If you don't have the balls to know that going in as a CO in what is pretty much our only non-nuclear strategic deterrence mission then don't be in charge. One person died. My age.
Being at sea in the age of the internet, even seaman Timmy knows what you don't do on e-mail. Doesn't mean he won't do it, but they have a giant kill switch on the satlink. And boy do they not like the occasional wanna be cool kid with an Iridium phone.
Wouldn't it be an anomaly, if, given the size of the crew and the length of deployment, no one died?
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He didn't leak it to the press, and it might have been the shitbird who did. But he sent it to 30 people, allegedly on an unsecure channel. I'm pretty sure he doesn't have 30 people in his immediate up-chain. (in my huge company there are about 6 people between me and the top, and I think that's too many) I can see bypassing his admiral and sending it to the admiral's boss (whoever that is) and copying, his boss, Sec of Navy, and maybe 2 or 3 others -- on a secure comm line. What he did might have ultimately been the right thing even if it violated protocol, I don't know, but that comes with a price.
Insecure is irrelevant if it isn't classified. He used the Navy's own email system. Note the navy is very publicly stating he will not be officially punished as he did nothing wrong; just unofficially punished with his career blackballed, UCMJ be damned. Based on their sudden hands off stance I am fairly confident that had they tried anything official he would have demanded a CM and been acquitted while burning down one or more admirals in the process.
P.S.: there's plenty of people that he would righteously be CC'ing. The legal weasels on board for example to make sure he is CYA'd. The Admirals staff. The Admirals legal weasels. The XO. The air Boss. Any and all divO's. Again we don't know who, but there's assumptions aplenty that it includes "the wrong people." Why?
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The more you know....
“Had I known then what I know now, I would have called for his removal,” the CNO said of the captain.
Gilday said that before Crozier sent the email, the captain already failed in his primary job: to keep his crew safe. He said the CO moved too slowly to quarantine sailors while they were at sea and evacuate sailors upon reaching Guam, describing the carrier’s command team as in “almost paralysis.” He said that soon after Crozier requested 1,000 beds ashore, Naval Base Guam and the local government and hotel industry made some 2,400 beds available — yet Crozier failed to make and execute a plan to swiftly move sailors.
“I was not impressed by the slow egress off the ship,” nor by Crozier’s decision to lift quarantine in the aft section of the ship, Gilday said. These and other decisions by the CO put the crew’s “comfort before safety,” he said.
https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2020/06/navy-punish-fired-uss-roosevelt-captain/166300/?oref=defense_one_breaking_nl&fbclid=IwAR2WV9cahZe_SM7G2i4zOvveOcWv_ro442B403qkfGYYgYFYNRxCKisgpNo
Of course now the Politicians will get involved where they should just stay away.
bob
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Insecure is irrelevant if it isn't classified. He used the Navy's own email system. Note the navy is very publicly stating he will not be officially punished as he did nothing wrong; just unofficially punished with his career blackballed, UCMJ be damned. Based on their sudden hands off stance I am fairly confident that had they tried anything official he would have demanded a CM and been acquitted while burning down one or more admirals in the process.
P.S.: there's plenty of people that he would righteously be CC'ing. The legal weasels on board for example to make sure he is CYA'd. The Admirals staff. The Admirals legal weasels. The XO. The air Boss. Any and all divO's. Again we don't know who, but there's assumptions aplenty that it includes "the wrong people." Why?
That is a good point on the number of people involved. Until we know who, assuming he copied extra people to insure it leaked may be a stretch. It seems the Navy brass are the ones that made that accusation. Did he make statements confirming that?
The Navy brass assumed he did it deliberately or so it appears. If true, and given he was a career officer and made it to Captain of a carrier, someone above him must have really pissed him off to force an action like that. Really makes me curious about the details we are not being told.