Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: HankB on April 04, 2020, 11:48:07 AM
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An AP story: https://www.dailyherald.com/business/20200403/governor-to-take-ventilators-for-new-york-city-as-hospitals-buckle
With coronavirus deaths surging in New York, the governor announced Friday he will use his authority to seize ventilators and protective gear from private hospitals and companies that aren't using them—one of the most aggressive steps yet in the U.S. to relieve severe shortages of equipment needed to fight the scourge . . .
. . . The Democratic governor was praised by a metropolitan-area hospital association, but elected officials from some areas outside the city objected to the move. Republican U.S. Rep. Tom Reed called the order dangerous and reckless and said it would cost lives. "Taking our ventilators by force leaves our people without protection and our hospitals unable to save lives today or respond to a coming surge," he said.
No kidding, Rep. Reed. ASKING for help is one thing, saying you're going to SEIZE equipment and supplies is quite another. Note that they're not just talking about emptying warehouses from hoarders who are holding back supplies with an eye to future price gouging, but going into outstate medical facilities and simply TAKING what they have.
Will the police in NY uphold their oaths and refuse Cuomo's orders, or will they become good little goons with guns and begin a looting spree across outstate New York because the governor told them to?
We'll see whose side the police are really on - but the situation looks pretty grim to me.
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An AP story: https://www.dailyherald.com/business/20200403/governor-to-take-ventilators-for-new-york-city-as-hospitals-buckle
No kidding, Rep. Reed. ASKING for help is one thing, saying you're going to SEIZE equipment and supplies is quite another. Note that they're not just talking about emptying warehouses from hoarders who are holding back supplies with an eye to future price gouging, but going into outstate medical facilities and simply TAKING what they have.
Will the police in NY uphold their oaths and refuse Cuomo's orders, or will they become good little goons with guns and begin a looting spree across outstate New York because the governor told them to?
We'll see whose side the police are really on - but the situation looks pretty grim to me.
It will be interesting to see which side the sheriffs support.
The hospitals have a bargaining chip here too; who does Coumo think treats injured or sick police officers? (or at least used to)
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I didn't see anything in the linked article suggesting that the Governor's actions constituted an unlawful or illegal order, especially in the context of emergency powers. It is not an unlawful taking, given that the items will be paid for or returned. So from that standpoint, why should the police refuse orders to seize, if necessary, emergency supplies that are not being otherwise used?
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All your ventilators are belong to us
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... It is not an unlawful taking, given that the items will be paid for or returned. So from that standpoint, why should the police refuse orders to seize, if necessary, emergency supplies that are not being otherwise used?
Payment several months from now doesn't mean much for consumables (gloves, masks, etc.) that are needed today or next week. Even immediate payment is irrelevant if you can't use it to replace what was taken in a timely manner. Or return of a (highly used) ventilator in October that was badly needed for patients in April, May, and June.
If this stands as precedent, what's to say that NY can't simply say in an emergency of their own definition, that the police can go ahead and seize privately owned guns . . . radios . . . cell phones . . . 4x4s . . . snowmobiles . . . or anything else they want to, and make it all hunky dory if they pay you later on a value THEY establish?
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I didn't see anything in the linked article suggesting that the Governor's actions constituted an unlawful or illegal order, especially in the context of emergency powers. It is not an unlawful taking, given that the items will be paid for or returned. So from that standpoint, why should the police refuse orders to seize, if necessary, emergency supplies that are not being otherwise used?
Devil's advocate counterpoint: The city is afraid they will run low on food. I smartly stored a half year's worth of food in my home. These are emergency supplies that are otherwise not being used. Can they pay me for them and seize them? If there really is a food shortage, does the money do me any good if I run out of food myself?
Edit: Hank beat me to the punch.
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The short answer to your questions is essentially yes: various levels of government have extraordinarily broad powers when emergencies are invoked. These powers can include the seizure and subsequent return or reimbursement of privately-owned goods, amongst myriad other things the government can do. The powers are usually codified under Federal, State, County, or Municipal statutes called the Emergency Powers Act, Emergency Services Act, Disaster Act, Emergency Response Act or similar.
If you do some poking around on the Internet, I think you will be astonished to find out just what government(s) can do in these situations. The Courts usually give broad latitude to the Executive branch in carrying out these powers, and various appellate decisions, post-Emergency, tend to affirm how government(s) can do this. What New York is doing is not especially new or novel.
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I have no doubt that the government gave themselves these powers, and that the government, under review, will find that these powers are OK, but they are not. Property is property and it shouldn't be up for seizure just because Cuomohas decided he has a better use for it then it's owner. I know it is, but it shouldn't be.
If the government of New York would li,e to buy the equipment they should make an offer, but in this situation it's not even unreasonable to assume NYC will continue to fail to contain their infection, and those vents will be needed upstate where they are. But people in the Big Apple are known for thinking their lives are more important.
I sincerely hope owners destroy the machines rather than pretend government theft on "emergency powers" is justified.
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Dogmush makes an important distinction that I neglected to clarify:
Can this be legally done through force of government? Obviously, yes. Is it moral and justifiable? I say no.
Edit:
I will potentially make a hypocrite out of myself with a ridiculous example: There are no N95 masks available anywhere and one guy has somehow hoarded 500,000 of them. He's willing to sell them to the government for $100 each. That might be a situation where the government pays him what they are worth plus 20% or something and takes some portion of them for the public good.
We might be able to debate the difference between cornering the market on quantities of a life saving device for outrageous profit (versus some profit), and smaller medical facilities (or even individuals) having some small quantity of ventilators that they might themselves need at some point. Which I see as the same as the person who planned their food supply to take care of them, their family, their friends, in an emergency.
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So Dogmush, what are you going to do when your chain of command puts a M4 in your hands and tells you to lead the squad going to the local WalMart to load up all their bottled water and bring it back for distribution to the local COVID quarantine facility? All under Federal orders.
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So Dogmush, what are you going to do when your chain of command puts a M4 in your hands and tells you to lead the squad going to the local WalMart to load up all their bottled water and bring it back for distribution to the local COVID quarantine facility? All under Federal orders.
That's legitimately a question that I take seriously, and ponder pretty often. It will depend on exactly the circumstances I suspect.
I can tell you that when I was tasked to go get all the bottled water I could for real, we convinced Publix to sell us what we needed and went to their distribution center with LMTVs.
In the situation we are discussing? I would probably go ask for the equipment, but I wouldn't steal it under threat of force, nor would I order my soldiers to do so. The people Cuomo is stealing from will almost certainly need this gear before this is over.
ETA: "I've been tasked with transporting anything you have on this list, that you can spare, to NYC." rather than "We're taking all this stuff."
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Devil's advocate counterpoint: The city is afraid they will run low on food. I smartly stored a half year's worth of food in my home. These are emergency supplies that are otherwise not being used. Can they pay me for them and seize them? If there really is a food shortage, does the money do me any good if I run out of food myself?
And just to continue devil's advocate counterpoint - since some groups (e.g., Mormons) are known to frequently keep a full year's supply of food on hand for each family member, under an emergency food grab might there be a religious component to the food seizures? ("Officers Brown, Smith and Jones, go to the local Mormon temple and get a list of all members. Then go check out their homes for the food we know they're hoarding. Don't take no for an answer!!)
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Not that I expect the current situation to go all tikiwiki, but 'don't take no for an answer' will likely depend on who is doing the asking. The local LE agency might be one thing, but the National Guard or Army infantry element is going to be another thing. I'm not going to be out there clutching my AR-15 and waving the Gadsden flag as the Stryker rolls up and runs a box of 30 mm Bushmaster ammo through the gun into my house.
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And just to continue devil's advocate counterpoint - since some groups (e.g., Mormons) are known to frequently keep a full year's supply of food on hand for each family member, under an emergency food grab might there be a religious component to the food seizures? ("Officers Brown, Smith and Jones, go to the local Mormon temple and get a list of all members. Then go check out their homes for the food we know they're hoarding. Don't take no for an answer!!)
And to continue the devil's advocate view, what if they decide to take ALL the food and there is none to be had to replace it? I am sure the fact that you will be repaid in a few months will smell good on the table the following day.
Whatever the dictator decides to do is completely legal. Legal and right are not the same thing.
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Whatever the dictator decides to do is completely legal. Legal and right are not the same thing.
Very true. In China the execution of dissidents via a gunshot to the back of the head is legal - as is billing their next of kin for the cost of the bullet.
We're not there yet, and I hope we never will be. But Cuomo's seizure order is very, very troubling. Especially if the seizures actually take place and he gets away with it.
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Pretty sure if that happened, the first few wouldn't have any choice but to give up their food, but word would spread quickly, and even a couple of people with standard hunting rifles can be put to very good use if you know they are coming for your stash. It wouldn't go very far.
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Cuomo is a whiny bitch. I saw a video clip of him a couple of days ago, complaining because the federal government "only" gave him 400 ventilators. His comment was "What am I going to do with 400 ventilators when I need 30,000?"
Never mind the outrageous 30,000 number. The point is -- the United States is [supposed to be] a constitutional republic. New York is supposed to take care of New York. It is NOT the role of the federal government to do Governor Cuomo's job for him.
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Cuomo is a whiny *****. I saw a video clip of him a couple of days ago, complaining because the federal government "only" gave him 400 ventilators. His comment was "What am I going to do with 400 ventilators when I need 30,000?"
Never mind the outrageous 30,000 number. The point is -- the United States is [supposed to be] a constitutional republic. New York is supposed to take care of New York. It is NOT the role of the federal government to do Governor Cuomo's job for him.
Pretty much.
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As a counterpoint to Cuomo's threat. I'd say anyone who has their equipment taken by the governor's order would open him up to malfeasance and misfeasance in office as he failed to stock the states larder with necessary equipment that he was told were needed for a pandemic and spent the money for that and more on a scheme for building solar farms.
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First, they came for the ventilators and I said nothing because I didn't have a ventilator ...
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dogmush:
I have no doubt that the government gave themselves these powers, and that the government, under review, will find that these powers are OK, but they are not. Property is property and it shouldn't be up for seizure just because Cuomohas decided he has a better use for it than its owner. I know it is, but it shouldn't be.
Well established principle. Latest I know of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London
Just about everybody screamed about this at the time. New London "needed" the property (for enhanced taxation) more than little old Susette Kelo did.
MillCreek:
If you do some poking around on the Internet, I think you will be astonished to find out just what government(s) can do in these situations. The Courts usually give broad latitude to the Executive branch in carrying out these powers, and various appellate decisions, post-Emergency, tend to affirm how government(s) can do this. What New York is doing is not especially new or novel.
I'll say it again. The very words "emergency powers" make my sphincters shrink and I miss a couple of flub-dubs.
Terry, 230RN
REF:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fd7.freedomworks.org.s3.amazonaws.com%2Ffield%2Fimage%2Fsusette%2520kelo.jpg&hash=11e75d9ce09508b285006d500860605d2d0aa4d1)
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dogmush:
Well established principle. Latest I know of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London
Just about everybody screamed about this at the time. New London "needed" the property (for enhanced taxation) more than little old Susette Kelo did.
MillCreek:
I'll say it again. The very words "emergency powers" make my sphincters shrink and I miss a couple of flub-dubs.
Terry, 230RN
Totally different. Kelo wasn't an emergency situation, it was an eminent domain case. Her house and property weren't commandeered, they were taken through the established process of eminent domain, which has long been held to be constitutional. The wrinkle in the Kelo case was that the City of New London didn't want the land so they could build a school or a library or a firehouse or a freeway, they wanted it so they could turn it over to the Pfizer Corporation for a private, for-profit project. Regrettably, the Supreme Court ruled that the taking was constitutional.
In the end, Pfizer pulled out of New London, nothing was built on the land, so instead of increased tax revenues the city ended up with an ugly eyesore of a wasteland that hasn't generated any tax revenue at all for a decade and a half. The houses have all been torn down and the land is still vacant today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelo_v._City_of_New_London
I like Tommy Lee Jones' attitude toward commandeering stuff ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77ZuwtX3B80
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In the end, Pfizer pulled out of New London, nothing was built on the land, so instead of increased tax revenues the city ended up with an ugly eyesore of a wasteland that hasn't generated any tax revenue at all for a decade and a half. The houses have all been torn down and the land is still vacant today.
https://www.theday.com/article/20190804/NWS01/190809745
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Just realized this story should be in this thread.
Something you may not see in most of the MSM and if you do I'm sure it will be somehow spun into being Orange Man's fault
In 2006, then-New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg's administration began purchasing ventilators to allow the city to be prepared for a pandemic like the current coronavirus crisis -- only for the city to later auction them off, according to a report.
ProPublica reported Monday that the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene issued a report in 2006 on the city's preparedness for pandemic influenza -- similar to the 1918 Spanish Flu or the 2019 novel coronavirus -- that projected the city would need thousands of extra ventilators in order to properly treat all of its residents who got sick. The plan was then put into action, with the city initially buying 500 ventilators before it ran out of money to buy more and to maintain the ones it had already stockpiled, according to ProPublica.
Those ventilators were then auctioned off some time before 2016 because the city could not afford to maintain them in working order, partially because the model of ventilator the city had purchased was no longer in production after 2009, the report said.
New York City stockpiled ventilators for a pandemic, only to later auction them off: report
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-york-stockpiled-ventilators-for-pandemic-only-to-later-auction-them-off-report
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The Kelo case illustrates the principle regardless of the reason for the taking: What's mine is mine, and what's your'n is mine, too.
"Reasonable" compensation notwithstanding.
Besides, the Kelo case deserves whatever attention it can get, now, 15 years later. Especially in light of NYC's potential or actual taking of ventilators.
Hey, Mr. Prepper, Mr. Mormon, Mr. Farmer, we need your provisions now for the feeding of our empty-headed citified multitudes, and the hell with you and your future.
Hey, Mr. County Health Department...
"...from each according to his ability, to each according to his need...""
Terry, 230RN