Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MechAg94 on December 11, 2020, 11:59:20 AM
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https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-raided-ghost-guns/
BREAKING: Polymer80 Raided By ATF In An Apparent Move Against “Ghost Guns”
The raid target, Nevada-based Polymer80, is suspected of illegally manufacturing and distributing firearms, failing to pay taxes, shipping guns across state lines and failing to conduct background investigations, according to an application for a search warrant unsealed Thursday after the raid took place.
The probe focuses on Polymer80’s “Buy Build Shoot Kit,” which includes the parts to build a “ghost” handgun. The kit, which Polymer80 sells online, meets the definition of a firearm, ATF investigators determined according to the warrant application. That means it would have to be stamped with a serial number and couldn’t be sold to consumers who haven’t first passed a background check.
I assume they have seized their customer records as well. Stay safe and know your rights.
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/atf-raids-polymer80s-office-claiming-company-is-illegally-selling-guns/#axzz6gKrTlgCm
Ammoland article.
Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/atf-raids-polymer80s-office-claiming-company-is-illegally-selling-guns/#ixzz6gKtD81S8
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook
It is unclear what this means for people that purchased the kits from Polymer80. The ATF has yet to indicate if they believe those buyers own illegal firearms. Right now, the case is just involving the “Buy Build Shoot Kit” line of products because it comes with everything needed to complete the gun. Polymer80 does have a determination letter that their frame is NOT a firearm. It is unclear whether the ATF would consider one of their 80% frames a gun if the customer added everything they needed to complete it to their cart separately.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaZNaaJlpEg
Hank Strange is live now talking about it. They mentioned the goal may have been to seize customer records to run against the FBI database.
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This rule by fiat has to stop.
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Sounds like they are just seizing stuff and making up rules afterward, IIRC, they did something like to cavalry arms- shutting them down on some ticky-tacky area of the law.
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Sounds like they are just seizing stuff and making up rules afterward, IIRC, they did something like to cavalry arms- shutting them down on some ticky-tacky area of the law.
Bullscat about left and right halves of the uppers, IIRC. They were more than 80% but not yet serialed/labeled or something like that (since they could be taped together rather than vibro-seamed or whatever they did as final assembly).
From the Cavalry Arms raid:
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi124.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fp17%2Fazredhawk44%2Fmotivator1822574.jpg&hash=5b36ca74facc5c36817feac15fa2e7670b930742)
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It’s good to remember names and agencies who aren’t our friends, as more interesting times approach.
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It’s good to remember names and agencies who aren’t our friends, as more interesting times approach.
That's easy to remember: all of them.
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It’s good to remember names and agencies who aren’t our friends, as more interesting times approach.
This one was on the list a long long time ago.
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I think of it more as an accountability roster rather than a list..
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Every time I see a thin blue line sticker/flag, or one of my gun groups talks about "supporting the badge", I think of stuff like this.
Law Enforcement in the US is pretty hard to support these days.
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Every time I see a thin blue line sticker/flag, or one of my gun groups talks about "supporting the badge", I think of stuff like this.
Law Enforcement in the US is pretty hard to support these days.
The cognitive dissonance of having a Gadsden flag and "back the blue"/ thin blue line sticker on the same pickup is terrifying.
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ATF is on an emboldened push. This, the pistol braces, and I heard today they are going after the “solvent traps” and “portable key hanger” type stuff plus cross referencing buyers of such with auto parts and so on. We had a relatively lax era from them but now we are returning to the “shoestring machine gun” type nonsense from them.
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ATF is on an emboldened push. This, the pistol braces, and I heard today they are going after the “solvent traps” and “portable key hanger” type stuff plus cross referencing buyers of such with auto parts and so on. We had a relatively lax era from them but now we are returning to the “shoestring machine gun” type nonsense from them.
Huh? What are those things? ???
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Huh? What are those things? ???
Solvent trap: muzzle device adapter to thread an oil filter onto. Mediocre supressor.
Portable key hanger: drop in auto sear disguised as a wall hook.
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ATF is on an emboldened push. This, the pistol braces, and I heard today they are going after the “solvent traps” and “portable key hanger” type stuff plus cross referencing buyers of such with auto parts and so on. We had a relatively lax era from them but now we are returning to the “shoestring machine gun” type nonsense from them.
Easy to find youtube videos of guys being contacted by ATF after buying automotive filters.
It's a good idea to keep in mind that most police officers/LEOs are not highly paid individuals and many of them live paycheck to paycheck.
If it comes down to enforcing unconstitutional orders or being unemployed it is my opinion that 95%+ will default to their paycheck.
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It's a good idea to keep in mind that most police officers/LEOs are not highly paid individuals and many of them live paycheck to paycheck.
If it comes down to enforcing unconstitutional orders or being unemployed it is my opinion that 95%+ will default to their paycheck.
Agreed. We should also all spend a little time lurking on one or more of the "cop" discussion forums. If you spend more than ten minutes on any of those sites, you will see that most of them not only subscribe to but are heavily invested in an "us vs. them" mentality. They do NOT see themselves as citizens serving other citizens. They (most of them) see themselves as being members of an elite group, totally different than and separate from, the rest of the population. You will also see constant reminders that the foremost rule for most of them is that the only thing that matters is that they go home at the end of their shift. If they have to violate a few constitutional rights or break a few heads in order to do that -- well. that's just collateral damage.
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Knock Knock
GHOSTED: ATF Visiting End Users; Requesting Forfeiture Of Polymer80 Kits
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/12/11/polymer80-kits/?fbclid=IwAR17r0czoC92bCInej9b3hgp91fTdOnsX4oLS4dDVY2SiMl2upvZ5yPe6wg
Midway and Brownells got visits too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_F9cvI9RMg
ATF Internal Leaks Shows An Even Greater Crack Down On 80% Frames ~ VIDEO
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/atf-internal-leaks-shows-even-greater-crack-down-80-frames/#axzz6gN1yGexZ
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[tinfoil on]
I have to wonder about the timing of this. Were there similar episodes between 2016 and say, mid-2020? I have a little bit of "deep state" tickling the back of my brain on this. Higher level (SES level) ATF people who hate guns, but couldn't do anything under Trump. Now maybe getting a head start engaging in stuff they can get away with under a 46 administration (Hi Beto!).
[tinfoil off]
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Devil's Advocate Mode On
Bump stocks, arm braces, and 80% Kits could be viewed as walking a thin line between legal definitions and could be seen as an act, from the ATF's POV, of poking the bear. Well the bear got tired of being poked.
Not taking the ATF's side here just stating what may be their viewpoint on this for discussion purposes so don't flame me.
Devil's Advocate Mode Off
Now that said. It's legal or it's not. Don't go saying it's legal one day and then the next say you changed your mind so turn it over. The ATF has more mood swings than a feminist convention on the rag and that has to stop.
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I predict binary and similar triggers are next
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Solvent trap: muzzle device adapter to thread an oil filter onto. Mediocre supressor.
Portable key hanger: drop in auto sear disguised as a wall hook.
The solvent trap is basically a suppressor with no holes drilled through it. Theoretically, you buy one with the intention of doing a form 1 to build a suppressor. From what I have seen, they don't perform well. On the oil filters, I once saw a serial numbered muzzle device you could thread an oil filter onto. I don't think they allow you to do that anymore.
Mrgunsngear did these videos recently.
Solvent Trap Silencers: Do They Actually Work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKRjaT9PVGo
Oil Filter As A Silencer: Does It Really Work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EExnpnXW7Wc
On the key hanger, there was a guy on some forum who was selling plastic wall hangers that were 3D printed. Part of the hanger was the plastic piece needed to make a Glock pistol full auto. He was arrested as I heard it.
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I predict binary and similar triggers are next
That may be, but they going after 80% stuff and braces will likely keep them busy a while.
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Just got a Classic Firearms E-mail advertising the Polymer80 Glock kits :facepalm:
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Just got a Classic Firearms E-mail advertising the Polymer80 Glock kits :facepalm:
Gotta sell 'em before they're confiscated ya know.
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I wonder how long until 3D printers become restricted?
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I wonder how long until 3D printers become restricted?
Excellent question. It won't be long I would imagine, a couple of years at most.
Once the Dems have packed the SCOTUS I expect them to unleash a *expletive deleted*it ton of unconstitutional stuff on the country.
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Just got a Classic Firearms E-mail advertising the Polymer80 Glock kits :facepalm:
Classic isn't selling the kit, they are just selling the frame and rail set, which has an ATF determination letter as "not a firearm".
To be clear:
ATF has said in this raid that doing nothing more than putting a bunch of non firearm parts in a box, manufactures the firearm.
P80 frame kit: not a firearm.
Glock slide/barrel/recoil spring: not a firearm.
Glock lower parts kit: not a firearm.
Those three parts in a priority mail box: Firearm!
The agents that served this warrant, and the judge who signed it, should be doxxed, protests outside their homes, not allowed to eat in a restaurant, and any business that serves them should be boycotted. Their spouses employers should be spammed, and if their kids are in a private school, it should be doxxed and have it's funding threatened. They should have not a moment's peace until they prostrate themselves in the public square and beg forgiveness., and only then should we allow them and their families to slink back I to obscurity and never again touch a lever of governmental power.
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The solvent trap is basically a suppressor with no holes drilled through it. Theoretically, you buy one with the intention of doing a form 1 to build a suppressor. From what I have seen, they don't perform well. On the oil filters, I once saw a serial numbered muzzle device you could thread an oil filter onto. I don't think they allow you to do that anymore.
Mrgunsngear did these videos recently.
Solvent Trap Silencers: Do They Actually Work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKRjaT9PVGo
Oil Filter As A Silencer: Does It Really Work?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EExnpnXW7Wc
On the key hanger, there was a guy on some forum who was selling plastic wall hangers that were 3D printed. Part of the hanger was the plastic piece needed to make a Glock pistol full auto. He was arrested as I heard it.
The one I saw a couple weeks ago was essentially a DIAS with an extra piece of (easily removable) plastic on there to make it hang over a door or similar. I think it even had a couple of thin spots to indicate where to cut off the excess plastic.
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You can make one out of a coat hanger for the AR. [popcorn]
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2FCoathangerDIAS-1.jpg&hash=4ce44984bfa36e1b0cd81d44ddb678e8a8dbfd50)
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Classic isn't selling the kit, they are just selling the frame and rail set, which has an ATF determination letter as "not a firearm".
To be clear:
ATF has said in this raid that doing nothing more than putting a bunch of non firearm parts in a box, manufactures the firearm.
P80 frame kit: not a firearm.
Glock slide/barrel/recoil spring: not a firearm.
Glock lower parts kit: not a firearm.
Those three parts in a priority mail box: Firearm!
The agents that served this warrant, and the judge who signed it, should be doxxed, protests outside their homes, not allowed to eat in a restaurant, and any business that serves them should be boycotted. Their spouses employers should be spammed, and if their kids are in a private school, it should be doxxed and have it's funding threatened. They should have not a moment's peace until they prostrate themselves in the public square and beg forgiveness., and only then should we allow them and their families to slink back I to obscurity and never again touch a lever of governmental power.
That is what I heard in follow up videos. Polymer80 is still in business and operating. It was the complete kits the ATF didn't like. I guess that kit had the tools, barrel, and all the stuff needed to build a pistol in one box and that got the ATF triggered.
It seems to me they could have just sent a cease and desist letter, but I guess they could get hold of the customer information then.
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The Glock conversion switches or the "hanger" that's really a DIAS to my eyes don't look legal. (They OUGHT to be, but by my understanding of the law, they aren't.) I can see probable cause for law enforcement action.
Unless there's something not yet publicized, the Polymer 80 raid on the other hand appears to be entirely bogus.
A lesson here is that when making a legal but bureaucratically disliked item, the sellers should keep business records, inventory, etc. off site . . . or at the very least securely encrypt their records.
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A lesson here is that when making a legal but bureaucratically disliked item, the sellers should keep business records, inventory, etc. off site . . . or at the very least securely encrypt their records.
Or not keep them at all.
I favor VPN vendors that keep no logs.
I see no reason for a vendor to keep itemized sales records of not-firearms in such a way that a 1:1 correlation of sales and shipped addresses can be reconstructed. Particularly with a product that is intended to anonymize firearms ownership as its primary function.
I grok that for tax/accounting reasons you need itemized transactions. But outside of 30 days of shipping, there's no reason to not just delete the customer identifiable data from your system. I rather doubt the company offers some sort of warranty on a DIY pistol frame kit.
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You can make one out of a coat hanger for the AR. [popcorn]
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fherohog.com%2Fimages%2Fguns%2FCoathangerDIAS-1.jpg&hash=4ce44984bfa36e1b0cd81d44ddb678e8a8dbfd50)
When I was in the Army, my First Sergeant showed me how to use a short length of dog tag chain to convert an M1 Carbine to full auto. It's probably a good thing that I don't remember how he did it.
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Or not keep them at all.
I favor VPN vendors that keep no logs.
I see no reason for a vendor to keep itemized sales records of not-firearms in such a way that a 1:1 correlation of sales and shipped addresses can be reconstructed. Particularly with a product that is intended to anonymize firearms ownership as its primary function.
I grok that for tax/accounting reasons you need itemized transactions. But outside of 30 days of shipping, there's no reason to not just delete the customer identifiable data from your system. I rather doubt the company offers some sort of warranty on a DIY pistol frame kit.
I agree on the customer records, but I thought I'd point out that P80 actually has a pretty good warranty. Even if you *expletive deleted*ck it up, they have a decent record of sending you a new one, they just ask for pictures of your messed up frame cut up so you aren't getting two. They are a solid company to do business with.
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I agree on the customer records, but I thought I'd point out that P80 actually has a pretty good warranty. Even if you *expletive deleted*ck it up, they have a decent record of sending you a new one, they just ask for pictures of your messed up frame cut up so you aren't getting two. They are a solid company to do business with.
I think in light of this raid, they'd do better to lower their prices a bit, and make a point of describing WHY they will no longer be keeping customer records and/or offering a warranty.
I'd be pissed if I had bought one of these and now the ATF is coming knocking on my door. The whole point of buying one is to destroy the efficacy of any registry, even the distributed 4473 system.
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https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/polymer80-refuses-californias-subpoena-to-turn-over-customer-information/#axzz6gd1lkIGn
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https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/polymer80-refuses-californias-subpoena-to-turn-over-customer-information/#axzz6gd1lkIGn
Good on them!
Now I want to buy one, and I don't particularly like Glocks.
I'll keep a couple hundred bucks earmarked for it, for the next time I go to a gun show or something.
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Good on them!
Now I want to buy one, and I don't particularly like Glocks.
I'll keep a couple hundred bucks earmarked for it, for the next time I go to a gun show or something.
You can probably find a dealer in your area that has there stuff. Brownells and MidwayUSA sell them I think.
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I think in light of this raid, they'd do better to lower their prices a bit, and make a point of describing WHY they will no longer be keeping customer records and/or offering a warranty.
I'd be pissed if I had bought one of these and now the ATF is coming knocking on my door. The whole point of buying one is to destroy the efficacy of any registry, even the distributed 4473 system.
Perhaps that's why they have their panties in a bunch; how dare the proles take away their control.
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I think the BATFE just wants fewer EBRs to account for when they begin confiscation. The Dems have made their gun control desires very clear.
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Perhaps that's why they have their panties in a bunch; how dare the proles take away their control.
That's exactly their issue.
I think the BATFE just wants fewer EBRs to account for when they begin confiscation. The Dems have made their gun control desires very clear.
These are Glocks, not EBRs.
I actually expect to see some action on making it illegal to manufacture a firearm without a license. If they force everyone to get FFL's a lot of folks won't bother, and the ones that do won't be numerous enough to sustain this little niche market and the companies that make the unfinished receivers will go under. Criminals will go back to stealing their guns, but this isn't about them anyway. The Venn diagram of "people who build their own guns" and "people that are willing to shoot LEO's confiscating guns" is close to a circle, and they are trying to make it harder for those folks.
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That's exactly their issue.
These are Glocks, not EBRs.
Matters little since they will be confiscating all semiautomatic firearms once they start.
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Matters little since they will be confiscating all semiautomatic firearms once they start.
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It does not appear that ATF considers standalone so-called “80% receivers” to be a “frame or receiver” regulated by the 1968 Gun Control Act. Retailers should consult with their attorney and/or contact ATF for guidance as to whether it may sell “Buy, Built and Shoot” kits and under what conditions. NSSF will continue to monitor this situation and report further as we learn more facts.
NSSF: Retailers Should Consult an Attorney Before Selling Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot Kits
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nssf-retailers-should-consult-an-attorney-before-selling-polymer80-buy-build-shoot-kits/
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NSSF: Retailers Should Consult an Attorney Before Selling Polymer80 Buy Build Shoot Kits
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/nssf-retailers-should-consult-an-attorney-before-selling-polymer80-buy-build-shoot-kits/
*expletive deleted*ck'em. That's exactly what they are trying to do. Make everyone so scared they ask "mother may I?" before they do anything. Do you ask the ATF before you sell pipe and nails? What about endmills? Do you ask for an ATF Determination before you sell yeast and sugar in the same transaction?
If the ATF wants to stop this, they need to issue a public determination on what "readily convertible" means so that there is a known standard and people can be non-criminal. Then they can defend their opinion of "receiver" in court.
Until they give us a standard, they can GFSF on all their "we'd like you to..." *expletive deleted*it. As can the industry [jack]boot lickers who are so worried about agents showing up.
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The real solution here is the ATF needs to cease to exist. One way or the other.
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Heard they're getting new uniforms in 2021
(https://allthatsinteresting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/hugo-boss-uniform.jpg)
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The real solution here is the ATF needs to cease to exist. One way or the other.
Correct.
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More info:
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/stamps-com-authorize-net-rat-out-polymer80s-customers/#axzz6gsMrRwl8
It appears that P80 didn't provide the customer list the ATF is using, but rather the shipping and CC processors did. Pretty hard to do business on the internet without taking cards or shipping stuff.
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More info:
https://www.ammoland.com/2020/12/stamps-com-authorize-net-rat-out-polymer80s-customers/#axzz6gsMrRwl8
It appears that P80 didn't provide the customer list the ATF is using, but rather the shipping and CC processors did. Pretty hard to do business on the internet without taking cards or shipping stuff.
That sucks. I don't think there is a single CC company that wouldn't turn over data related to gun owners for pretty much any flimsy reason. I don't know where shippers stand on handing over info, whether gun related or other.
In some ways this method is worse than just the list related the P80 frame, because this can give them a full list of people who bought legal (for now) guns, parts, etc. It's certainly one reason I like to bring cash into the LGS, so nobody knows what guns I buy.
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It's certainly one reason I like to bring cash into the LGS, so nobody knows what guns I buy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OaF-j8x5Vc
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OaF-j8x5Vc
Background checks are required if you’re purchasing a handgun from a licensed federal firearms dealer. However, an Idaho Concealed Weapons License (CWL) exempts the holder from the federal requirement of a background check prior to purchase of a firearm.
I have it on good authority that my LGS has a big red button connected to their records storage room. =D
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Ky has the same exemption on the background checks
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Ky has the same exemption on the background checks
I doubt that exempts the buyer from filling out Form 4473.
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I doubt that exempts the buyer from filling out Form 4473.
No it doesn't. Not aware of anyway around that except though private sales.
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No it doesn't. Not aware of anyway around that except though private sales.
Or building your own. ;)
Which is why the feds are pissed off about P80's.
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Or building your own. ;)
Which is why the feds are pissed off about P80's.
Well, there WAS that
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I doubt that exempts the buyer from filling out Form 4473.
If they're like Texas, the only change is accepting the concealed carry license in lieu of calling in the NICS check (possession of a license is considered proof of the NICS check). 4473 is a fed requirement either way.
Brad
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I have it on good authority that my LGS has a big red button connected to their records storage room. =D
Thermite? Napalm? Other?
Asking for someone else.
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P80 ordered to pay DC $4 million for selling 19 kits to DC residents
‘Ghost Gun’ Maker Ordered To Pay D.C. $4 Million, Barred From Selling To Residents
https://dcist.com/story/22/08/11/ghost-gun-maker-ordered-to-pay-d-c-4-million/
Polymer80 ordered to pay millions to DC
https://bearingarms.com/tomknighton/2022/08/12/polymer80-dc-n61392
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Making your own gun is just as innocent as writing your own book.
If the RKBA was treated as something other than the red headed stepchild of the Bill of Rights this would be obvious.
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They always call these guns "untraceable". How many of the guns they seize from criminals are traceable? I bet it is less than 50%.
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If they are untraceable how do they know they sold them to people in DC?
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If they are untraceable how do they know they sold them to people in DC?
Hello Visa and Master Card, we would like some info
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If they are untraceable how do they know they sold them to people in DC?
Since it is a settlement, perhaps that has already be established.
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Several Polylmer80 threads so I had to pick one.
One domino starts another
BALTIMORE -- Baltimore City has reached a $1.2 million settlement in its lawsuit against the leading manufacturer of untraceable, unserialized "ghost guns" plaguing the city, Mayor Brandon Scott announced Wednesday.
The city filed its lawsuit against Polymer80 Inc. in 2022, accusing the company of negligence, public nuisance, and violations of the Maryland Consumer Protection Act.
The lawsuit alleged the company intentionally undermined federal and state firearms laws by designing, manufacturing, selling, and providing ghost gun kits and parts to buyers who do not undergo a background check.
The mayor's office said all relief sought in the lawsuit was secured in the settlement. That includes:
Permanently prohibiting Polymer80 from advertising in Maryland or selling ghost guns to Maryland residents
Polymer80 must ban its dealers in nearby states from selling ghost guns to Maryland residents,
Cease all customer support in Maryland,
Polymer80 is required to provide quarterly reports to the city documenting all sales of ghost guns in neighboring states.
In 2023, the Baltimore Police Department seized 462 ghost guns. Already in 2024 year to date, BPD has already seized 43 ghost guns, an increase of 30% compared to this time last year.
Would be willing to bet 99.9% of those are guns with the S/N ground off since it they often seem to be referring to them as "ghost guns" now
Baltimore reaches $1.2M settlement in lawsuit against 'ghost gun' manufacturer Polymer80
https://www.cbsnews.com/baltimore/news/baltimore-ghost-guns-lawsuit-polymer80-settlement/