Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: WLJ on May 11, 2021, 08:04:49 PM
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Patent on the P365 magazine design was granted on March 30th 2021 and now Sig is going after Springfield over the Hellcat's magazine supposedly violating that patent.
SIG SAUER Files P365 Magazine Patent Infringement Suit Against Springfield Armory
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/sig-sauer-files-p365-magazine-patent-infringement-case-against-springfield/
Part that puzzles me is this
Patent Infringement?
The SIG P365 magazine functions as a combination of a double and a single stack design. The bottom portion is a double stack, and it gradually slopes into a single stack. This allows them to squeeze ten rounds in a short little magazine. The P365 magazine patent describes it as such.
Unless some detail is being left out this sound like they patented the double stack/single feed magazine design and aren't most pistol magazines double stack/single feed?
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This strikes me as ridiculous. And any company that sues another over mag design, if it isn't particularly novel like perhaps the FN57 mags or otherwise unique, is barking up the wrong tree. Especially if they sell copious numbers of 1911's and anything that takes STANAG magazines.
Not that the Hellcat and P365 share mag commonality... but commonality is something to aspire to.
Why sue over this, and not over Kel Tec SUB-2000 designing to a specific mag well of a proprietary handgun? Or all the AR lowers that use "glock mags?"
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My guess is because the Hellcat has been eating into 365 sales so go after them first.
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I don’t see how they can patent it multiple columns feeding into a single stack have been around for a while.
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I don’t see how they can patent it multiple columns feeding into a single stack have been around for a while.
I'm going to guess, that Sig designed some part of the magazine to take best advantage of the taper of 9x19 cartridges for a slightly more efficient stacking. Unique enough to patent?
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I don’t see how they can patent it multiple columns feeding into a single stack have been around for a while.
In the comments
Then again Glock got a patent on the trigger blade “safety” they copied from a 80 year old Iver Johnson safety hammerless revolver. Go figure.
If no one filed a patent yet well...
But also this in the comments
Sig has a claim. First to file. However, the patent can be invalidated if Springfield can show prior art (by anyone) prior to the filing.
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I'm going to guess, that Sig designed some part of the magazine to take best advantage of the taper of 9x19 cartridges for a slightly more efficient stacking. Unique enough to patent?
That's the sort of detail I wonder we're missing
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Sig is trying to take on the HK mantle?
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It does seem to look a bit different than your standard P226/Beretta92 mag design - those seem to slim down right before the top round of the mag, while the 365/Hellcat look to slim down 2-3 rds earlier. I could see how that is the innovation that allows them to be as skinny as a single-stack yet hold quite a bit more ammo - you basically are a single stack for the top few inches of the mag, so more room to stuff the action in there, while the empty grip below can hold doublestacked cartridges for a few inches, going from 6-7rds in a single stack gun to 10-12 in this one, without adding much if any bulk. Very neat idea. The fact that even the Hellcat has successfully undergone 10k+rd torture tests and survived (with just regular recoil spring changes IIRC) is pretty remarkable. For ages, if you wanted a reliable pocket gun it's the j-frame or nothing, now you have options that are more rugged than many of the early fullsize 9mms and not much heavier than a j-frame, with double the capacity or more. Plus, many will even mount a red dot, so you have something capable of much easier longer distance reach as well - 10yds and over, red dots on pistols start to be pretty awesome. While I'm extremely biased against striker fired anything due to safety/NPE concerns, it's quite an accomplishment to have something that light, that small, that cheap, that reliable.
The hotness when I started on gun forums for itty bitty 9mm pistols was the Kahr series, and they weren't terribly reliable, and I remember all the threads about how you had to break the things in.
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Ironically I just ordered some Hellcat mags Sunday
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In the comments
If no one filed a patent yet well...
I don't think you can patent something that's in the public domain. How long have we had double stack magazines with a taper at the top? At least since FN introduced the Hi-Power.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fthemagshack.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F05%2FMCGBRHP15B_2_HR-e1559174389823.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
S&W 5096?
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/46536-DEFAULT-l.jpg
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The complaint
Site won't let me copy and paste anything but note sections 21, 24 and 26
Springfield was notified Dec 2019 and the suit appears to has to do with the particular shape of the sides of the mag as it transitions from single to double stack
https://www.scribd.com/document/507702678/Sig-v-Springfield-Complaint
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I figured there would be some technical detail they patented. Not sure if it was really unique or they just decided to patent it to force competitors to work around it.
I wonder if they will try to take action against Ruger and S&W.
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We need a Godwin's law for Trump.
In the comments orange man is brought up.
Trump even came up in the comments for Heinkel 111 YT video recently.
SIG Files Lawsuit Against Springfield For Patent Infringement
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/05/13/sig-sauer-lawsuit-springfield/
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Harald Mustafah Max Müller • an hour ago
So SIG's patent claims explicitly describe a magazine with the combination of surfaces I've highlighted in blue. Previous double to single stacks have only had the front stepped part (like the P7M13, S&W Shield, and now Ruger Max-9), and otherwise two more or less continuous body tapers interrupted by a deeper groove taper. And for some reason, possibly weren't even aware of the patent, SA/HS Produkt duplicated this exact combination of faces. Funny enough, HS Produkt has an active design patent on their magazine.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/05/13/sig-sauer-lawsuit-springfield/
(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/499230e38590f1fa2539bce067961df643d58a693abf4c70d9e478a5925921a8.jpg?w=600&h=342)
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Springfield Responds to SIG SAUER’s Magazine Patent Lawsuit
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/05/14/springfield-responds-sig-lawsuit/
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Springfield Responds to SIG SAUER’s Magazine Patent Lawsuit
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/05/14/springfield-responds-sig-lawsuit/
There's a pic in the comments, comparing Springfield Hellcat, P365 mags, and a S&W mag from 2005.
let's see if it'll hotlink....
(https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/57da32a4a59b4c28687cea4e2762f7503d4588171ed062cc96750fdd834c076e.jpg?w=600&h=415)
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Springfield just released a 15rd magazine for the Hellcat
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Finally got to fondle a Hellcat over the weekend. They are indeed quite small. Impressively so, in fact, though nothing earth-shattering as they are similar in overall size and feel to the Kahr PM9.
Brad
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Finally got to fondle a Hellcat over the weekend. They are indeed quite small. Impressively so, in fact, though nothing earth-shattering as they are similar in overall size and feel to the Kahr PM9.
Brad
11+1 with the flush mag vs 6+1 in the Kahr
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/kahr-pm9-vs-springfield-hellcat-micro-compact
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11+1 with the flush mag vs 6+1 in the Kahr
https://www.handgunhero.com/compare/springfield-hellcat-micro-compact-vs-kahr-pm9
Yeah, that's impressive. Not $500 worth of impressive to me, though, at least not yet. Let me get a few more pennies in the Fun Money envelope that that might change.
Brad
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Yeah, that's impressive. Not $500 worth of impressive to me, though, at least not yet. Let me get a few more pennies in the Fun Money envelope that that might change.
Brad
Right... it's more a really compelling choice for newbies on the gun scene looking for best of breed concealed carry guns. For those who have carried a decade plus without needing to get into gunfights (and invested a few hundred into carry guns)... do you really need a slightly better tool to deal with the gunfights you don't get into?
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Aaaaand, Taurus dips their head into that ring. Just announced: https://taurusgx4.com/en-us/ (https://taurusgx4.com/en-us/).
Does not look like just another development of their PT111G2/G2/G3 series.
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I have a friend who is a patent lawyer. He made a boat load of money doing this kind of work for major companies. Basically, you find a competitor who has a product designed close enough to something proprietary that your company has patented, and you file suit. The endgame goal is either to force the competitors to stop using the design OR back them into a corner where the competitors have to pay licensing fees for their product. Glock is pretty notorious for forcing competitors to pay licensing fees. They won't even allow for airsoft copies of Glocks unless they are paying licensing fees. I bet SIG will push their suit, Springfield will offer cash, and this all goes away.