Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: MillCreek on July 30, 2021, 05:49:27 AM
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https://www.npr.org/2021/07/29/1022514854/sailor-charged-arson-uss-bonhomme-richard-navy-san-diego?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_term=nprnews&utm_campaign=npr
A sailor is under charges.
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Thought we already knew this, but I guess I am remembering when the same person was held and questioned last year. Not uncommon for this to happen, been on ships with the disgruntled fire starter. The military has a death penalty for a reason. Here’s a great place to use it.
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I'm not particularly up on military death penalty law, but I can't think of a situation where arson, without deaths involved, would rise to the status of a capital charge.
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I'm not particularly up on military death penalty law, but I can't think of a situation where arson, without deaths involved, would rise to the status of a capital charge.
I know it doesn’t but it should. We would kill hundreds of terrorists and most of the sailors in the process of Abu bin Goatlove swam up to the pier one night to set the ship on fire. This action was deliberate and has national security implications for years to come. I also would have been authorized to use deadly force on a sailor if I as a sentry found one in the act of deliberately firing the ship.
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" I also would have been authorized to use deadly force on a sailor if I as a sentry found one in the act of deliberately firing the ship."
Slightly different situation in that use of deadly force to prevent or stop a crime like that is warranted.
As a punishment after the fact when there were no deaths involved? No.
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Hmmm, if accurately reported he got charged with willful hazarding of a vessel. That qualifies for death. The act did not regard the safety of all of those who fought the fire. It does not regard the future reduced level of support Marines on a hostile beach get from there being one less capital ship than there should be.
I was a firefighter on a very similar amphib and a carrier. Every fire was a good chance to go die because you cannot just pull back and watch her burn like the local VFD. And every ship has a few dirtbags like this that corrode the morale of the whole ship. Mad about some injustice and usually confined to the ship they act out. Sabotage equipment, set fires, maybe just smear poop on the walls. Or my favorite of tie a beacon on a bag of trash while underway and toss it overboard. Every time it happens a helicopter crew and a boat crew risk their lives no matter the weather to try to save someone. This wasn’t the first major intentional fire and it won’t be the last. No consequences.
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OK, I stand corrected. Hazarding a vessel can be charged as a capital offense. Interesting.
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I'd support taking the shitbag a few miles out to sea and pitching him over the side.
Same for this piece of human filth
https://www.foxnews.com/us/worker-who-set-fire-to-uss-miami-submarine-sentenced-to-17-years
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OK, I stand corrected. Hazarding a vessel can be charged as a capital offense. Interesting.
Eh, you’re still not wrong. They wouldn’t pursue it and it has no deterrent effect at a federal facility years later. The military criminal justice system has fallen victim to TV and people who hold it to civilian standards. Eddie Slovik got a bum deal but there are good examples out there. Get the appropriate flag rank officers to sign off on it, shoot the guy and be done with it.
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I'd support taking the shitbag a few miles out to sea and pitching him over the side.
Same for this piece of human filth
https://www.foxnews.com/us/worker-who-set-fire-to-uss-miami-submarine-sentenced-to-17-years
(https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2018/09/1862/1048/Submarine-Fire1.jpg?ve=1&tl=1)
... and now we know what Jesse Pinkman has been up to.
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But he didn't intend to burn up the sub. He just lit some rags on fire so he could leave. that is okay right?
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Keelhauling from a carrier would be rather interesting.
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I just read a followup article in which the accused is a 19 year old seaman apprentice. He will not be named until formal charges are filed.
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I just read a followup article in which the accused is a 19 year old seaman apprentice. He will not be named until formal charges are filed.
If you gave me a lineup of 500 sailors I bet I get him by the third guess. The shitbird has some pretty universal traits.
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What I find disheartening is we lost the boat. They must be using a lot of aluminum these days.
When I was onboard the USS Forrestal we had an arson fire onboard that was bad enough we had to cut holes in the flight deck to access the fire. Our CIC was destroyed, all of the cable in the runs midship on the O3 level (right below the flight deck) were burned in half and lot of other little damages. We went into the yards and came out nearly 3 months later and made a 10 month Med cruise. Our arsonist turned out to be an E3 who didn't want to go on deployment so he set fire to the drapes in the Admirals cabin. He was charged with hazarding a vessel also but is still alive as far as I know. He was sentenced to five years. By now he has probably been upgraded to an Honorable Discharge (sarcasm). ;)
bob
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/12/06/archives/sailor-on-forrestal-denies-he-admitted-setting-ship-ablaze.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/12/08/archives/seaman-is-guilty-in-carrier-blaze-gets-5year-sentence-and-bad.html
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I can see why you could lose a ship in the yards. More flammables, zero watertight integrity or ability set boundaries, reduced Manning, firemains and foam stations tagged out, etc. We had a yardbirds storing hazmat fire nearly get away from us on CVN 71. Right next to where 12’x12’ holes were cut from flight deck to the bottom in order to pull the rudder pins. Good luck setting boundaries on that one.
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I can see why you could lose a ship in the yards. More flammables, zero watertight integrity or ability set boundaries, reduced Manning, firemains and foam stations tagged out, etc. We had a yardbirds storing hazmat fire nearly get away from us on CVN 71. Right next to where 12’x12’ holes were cut from flight deck to the bottom in order to pull the rudder pins. Good luck setting boundaries on that one.
The yards were a terrible place to have a fire. I did a yard period with the Forrestal. You are right, cables through the hatches, tons of welding going on. Fire hoses being replaced. I don't remember the boat (Maybe the Saratoga) was in the yards with us and they had a pretty good fire, we sent quite a few people to her to help them fight and contain the fire.
Worse yet was civilian boats, I was part of the Underway Rescue and Assistance Detail. We did a couple of assists with civilian ships mid ocean, those guys knew next to nothing about fire fighting. If the fire suppression system didn't take care of it they were ready to abandon their ship.
Fun times. Fight the fire, dewater the boat and hopefully send them on their way.
bob
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Saratoga had a fire around the same time as the Forrestal, but Sara was berthed in Singapore on a port call at the time.
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/10/30/archives/3-sailors-killed-12-hurt-in-fire-on-the-saratoga-navy-reports-that.html
As for yard fires, for the reasons French noted, they can be really, really bad.
The SS Normandie, a very famous Atlantic liner, had been interned in New York at the start of the war in Europe. After US entry into the war the US seized Normandie through angary and began converting it to a troopship (she was the fastest liner then in service).
On February 9 welding sparks ignited flammable materials and the fire quickly went out of control because the ship's fire sprinklers and pumps had been deactivated during the conversion. Fire fighting efforts were successful, but resulted in so much water being pumped into the ship that it capsized at its berth...
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Saratoga had a fire around the same time as the Forrestal, but Sara was berthed in Singapore on a port call at the time.
I wonder how that fire started?
https://youtu.be/8alNxLjCBJc
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This is the last paragraph in the Saratoga article...
"Then on Oct. 13 the Pacific Fleet Command announced that 46 persons, both black and white, had been injured in a racial clash aboard the carrier Kitty Hawk off North Vietnam. Twenty‐five black men were subsequently charged with assault and rioting in a series of roving brawls that went on all night Oct. 12 and into the next morning."
I had NEVER heard about that incident before.
Wow.
As for how the fire started on Sara... no clue.
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Saratoga had a fire around the same time as the Forrestal, but Sara was berthed in Singapore on a port call at the time.
https://www.nytimes.com/1972/10/30/archives/3-sailors-killed-12-hurt-in-fire-on-the-saratoga-navy-reports-that.html
As for yard fires, for the reasons French noted, they can be really, really bad.
The SS Normandie, a very famous Atlantic liner, had been interned in New York at the start of the war in Europe. After US entry into the war the US seized Normandie through angary and began converting it to a troopship (she was the fastest liner then in service).
On February 9 welding sparks ignited flammable materials and the fire quickly went out of control because the ship's fire sprinklers and pumps had been deactivated during the conversion. Fire fighting efforts were successful, but resulted in so much water being pumped into the ship that it capsized at its berth...
As the R. M. S. Titanic left europe for its maiden voyage to America, there was a coal fire in one of the coal bunkers. Some people believe it weakened the steel and hastened the ships sinking, however there is little evidence of this, and the damage to the ship was not outside of normal for the metallurgy of the day.
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This is the last paragraph in the Saratoga article...
"Then on Oct. 13 the Pacific Fleet Command announced that 46 persons, both black and white, had been injured in a racial clash aboard the carrier Kitty Hawk off North Vietnam. Twenty‐five black men were subsequently charged with assault and rioting in a series of roving brawls that went on all night Oct. 12 and into the next morning."
I had NEVER heard about that incident before.
Wow.
As for how the fire started on Sara... no clue.
There was also some racial tensions (yea, tensions) on several boats at the time. The two most well known events were the USS Kitty Hawk and the USS Constellation. Those events resulted in the USN coming up with a program to increase racial awareness. We were all instructed to wear civilian clothes (no rank) and attend one of the seminars that had been implemented fleet wide. Personally, I thought they were a waste of time because it was mainly just a force feeding of what the Human Resources Management team thought you should think or a general bitch session. At the time they were referred to as watermelon U, which almost guaranteed they would be ineffective.
Later (late 70s, early 80's) as women were being assigned to traditionally male billets on ships and in deploying aviation squadrons we had a series of Women in the Navy (WIN) command level seminars that every one had to attend.
The Navy (all services probably) figured they could fix social issues with an 8 hour seminar and all would be peachy. Too bad it doesn't work that way.
bob
https://www.nytimes.com/1973/02/18/archives/the-constellation-incident-a-sort-of-mutiny.html
https://www.aavw.org/served/policy_eo_abstract19.html
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/racial-violence-breaks-out-aboard-u-s-navy-ships
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/sailor-who-hated-navy-torched-dollar12b-assault-ship-warrant?ref=home&fbclid=IwAR1O8IDqTr5qNwqYKVjY8REtTAQf3sBYUulc1WYqvq3i6K0GMl2euCf4DMI
https://www.scribd.com/document/518700846/Ryan-Sawyer-Mays-search-warrant
Well hello, Seaman Ryan Sawyer Mays, and how is your day going?
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/sailor-who-hated-navy-torched-dollar12b-assault-ship-warrant?ref=home&fbclid=IwAR1O8IDqTr5qNwqYKVjY8REtTAQf3sBYUulc1WYqvq3i6K0GMl2euCf4DMI
https://www.scribd.com/document/518700846/Ryan-Sawyer-Mays-search-warrant
Well hello, Seaman Ryan Sawyer Mays, and how is your day going?
Sounds like a shitbird who couldn't succeed at his chosen desires (Computers and SEAL) and was assigned to the fleet as an undesignated seaman. I seldom met one of those who didn't place all of the blame for their problems on the Navy. In their eyes the Navy had it out for them.
bob
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Bringing this thread up from the ashes.
Not Guilty
Seaman Timmy is having a good day. After reading what the Navy had I am wondering how this even went to trial. Just more of the Navy trying their best to pin the blame as low on the chain of command as possible.
https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/investigations/fate-of-accused-arsonist-in-the-uss-bonhomme-richard-fire-now-in-hands-of-military-judge/509-adecaaee-5364-4ca2-aedd-ce1cf27fe5fc
bob
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" I also would have been authorized to use deadly force on a sailor if I as a sentry found one in the act of deliberately firing the ship."
Slightly different situation in that use of deadly force to prevent or stop a crime like that is warranted.
As a punishment after the fact when there were no deaths involved? No.
Why is trying to kill people with fire and failing less evil than trying to kill people with fire and being successful?
Attempted murder should be punished the same as murder- with death. The distinction doesn't make sense.
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Bringing this thread up from the ashes.
Not Guilty
Seaman Timmy is having a good day. After reading what the Navy had I am wondering how this even went to trial. Just more of the Navy trying their best to pin the blame as low on the chain of command as possible.
https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/investigations/fate-of-accused-arsonist-in-the-uss-bonhomme-richard-fire-now-in-hands-of-military-judge/509-adecaaee-5364-4ca2-aedd-ce1cf27fe5fc
bob
Just from reading the cbs8 story, the case does seem weak. The real investigation should be focused on why a small fire was allowed to grow and completely destroy a billion dollar plus warship. Nothing that floats is completely invulnerable but warships are supposed to survive after taking a good amount of actual combat damage. If a zippo and a bucket of accelerant (?) will take out an amphibious assault ship, how will it fare if, say, it takes a couple of hits from Chinese missiles and shells? Even small ones?
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From BobR's link:
"Defense attorneys also spent time debunking what they felt was a cursory and deficient investigation by the ATF."
No comment necessary or advisable.
What is the "Lower V"on a ship?
HankB, I gathered that much of the fire detection and suppression systems were inactivated for repairs and upgrades.
Sounds like one of those Western movie "He was in town when the bank was robbed, so he musta done it, let's string him up now!" scenarios.
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From BobR's link:
"Defense attorneys also spent time debunking what they felt was a cursory and deficient investigation by the ATF."
No comment necessary or advisable.
What is the "Lower V"on a ship?
HankB, I gathered that much of the fire detection and suppression systems were inactivated for repairs and upgrades.
Sounds like one of those Western movie "He was in town when the bank was robbed, so he musta done it, let's string him up now!" scenarios.
Lower Vehicle Hold.
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Just from reading the cbs8 story, the case does seem weak. The real investigation should be focused on why a small fire was allowed to grow and completely destroy a billion dollar plus warship. Nothing that floats is completely invulnerable but warships are supposed to survive after taking a good amount of actual combat damage. If a zippo and a bucket of accelerant (?) will take out an amphibious assault ship, how will it fare if, say, it takes a couple of hits from Chinese missiles and shells? Even small ones?
Yeah, that was a weak case, all right. And the fact that they were pursuing another suspect with equal MMO, then left off him, even with some compelling evidence? Not a good look at all.
As for the ship not surviving the fire... a ship undergoing reconstruction at a dock is a FAR different thing than a ship at sea, if for no other reason than its personnel, who are trained to handle fires, battle damage, etc., aren't there to do anything about it. At dock side the people who are assigned to protect it against fire are probably general firefighters, not really trained in what it takes to fight fires aboard a ship, especially once that's undergoing extensive rehabilitation and is likely packed with flammable materials not related to its role as a fighting ship.
From a few other articles I've read about this, it would seem that no one wanted to take authority (feeling that they didn't have the authority to do so) to lead the fire response. What that tells me is that, at least ashore and at port, the Navy doesn't value initiatitive, it focuses on rote, formualic adherence to Naval command structure even in the face of a catastrophe.
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. . . From a few other articles I've read about this, it would seem that no one wanted to take authority (feeling that they didn't have the authority to do so) to lead the fire response. What that tells me is that, at least ashore and at port, the Navy doesn't value initiatitive, it focuses on rote, formualic adherence to Naval command structure even in the face of a catastrophe.
From what I've read, I think you're right.
In pretty much the same vein, my take is that when people are subjected to micromanagement from above - with negative consequences if they don't wait for specific instructions even if they do the right thing - they're not likely to do anything on their own initiative. I've heard stories of soldiers in hostile territory getting in trouble for returning fire without orders. And in a less serious situation, I saw this "micromanagement from above" policy creeping in during my employment with a big Fortune 500 company - ironically, during a time when the official line was "employee empowerment" which supposedly meant having decisions made at the lowest practical level.
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While we know the ATF is incompetent so are a few others, the ones most likely doing all of the investigative work. According to a friend (Retired Navy CPO) who went on the do quite a few years with the Virginia Beach Police Department and who had dealings with NIS (Not Interested, Sorry) and NCIS (No Crime is Solved), both of those agencies are pretty much worthless.
bob
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Yeah, that was a weak case, all right. And the fact that they were pursuing another suspect with equal MMO, then left off him, even with some compelling evidence? Not a good look at all.
As for the ship not surviving the fire... a ship undergoing reconstruction at a dock is a FAR different thing than a ship at sea, if for no other reason than its personnel, who are trained to handle fires, battle damage, etc., aren't there to do anything about it. At dock side the people who are assigned to protect it against fire are probably general firefighters, not really trained in what it takes to fight fires aboard a ship, especially once that's undergoing extensive rehabilitation and is likely packed with flammable materials not related to its role as a fighting ship.
From a few other articles I've read about this, it would seem that no one wanted to take authority (feeling that they didn't have the authority to do so) to lead the fire response. What that tells me is that, at least ashore and at port, the Navy doesn't value initiatitive, it focuses on rote, formualic adherence to Naval command structure even in the face of a catastrophe.
The ship does have personnel there at all times, a duty section at least that lives on board or on a barge next door. I did a year in Newport News drydock. Every four days I slept on the barge even though my real home was a one mile walk away. First thing that has to be manned is the duty section fire party. That's only 20 or so folks. What should have happened Is they should have been doing everything they could while the Command Duty Officer had the duty section rounding up more people and equipment. Then recall the rest of the crew. No idea how we got to the civvie fire department watch it burn phase. But yeah a fire in a shipyard is a mess, especially if your sailors are not technical types that study firefighting. A big first task is where is the firemain? Often the regular main will be apart for maintenance and you have to understand where the temp mains are. I am glad we never had a major fire in the yards. Plenty of little ones, and that was what this one was at first. We got lucky.
As for formulaic adherence to command structure, well some of the navy still likes initiative. I had several episodes related to firefighting where people wanted to talk to me later. Apparently they don't like you relocating commissioned officers even if they are being ineffective and standing in front of the equipment you need. [popcorn]
NCIS? I still don't know if this sailor had some culpability just that he got off. Doesn't matter, the real failures happened long before the fire in the importance the command placed on fire inspections and training. Ship has a Fire Marshal at all times and an XO and CO specifically charged with making sure it doesn't burn to the waterline. And the reponse afterwards. All I know is I was once a junior sailor and NCIS tried really hard to get me to confess to something I didn't do. They are all bad cops.
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OK, that's good information, and I didn't realize that they kept duty parties of the ship's crew there during reconstruction/refit/rehab (can't remember how extensive it was) -- I thought it was just specific technical personnel who were required to assist in the ongoing work.
But it really makes me wonder just where the response broke down, why the response broke down, and how the Navy intends to put lessons learned to use in making sure something like this doesn't happy again.
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We really didn't do lessons learned from any of the major casualties in my time. Navy has its own unique brand of the Army's CRS syndrome. I spent a ton of time at the Farrier fire school named for the man you see run into the fire on the Forrestal and never come back. Back when chiefs had balls instead of corrupt incestuous secret societies. Beyond that the average sailor knows zero about the Stark, Belknap, George Washington hangar fire, Cole, Fitzgerald, etc. 99% of officers would be shocked that in WWII paint was meticulously chipped and kept to one coat because it burned like hell. We paint spaces every six month so they pass inspection(look pretty). After four uniform changes in a decade we still wear poly blends that melt. The epoxy paint system decks burn with pretty colors and make good shrapnel according to the Cole. But we focus on making sure our online training is up to date and everyone has the correct color rank tab starting today.
I did 4 yard periods in my ten years of sea time. One I lived onboard full time, in the winter and in lovely Portsmouth VA. Another one there I stayed on for duty. The carrier we hot racked on the accommodation barge for duty. Last one I had sold my house so again lived on the barge full time in South Norfolk. Barge sucked so good I usually slept in my office. Winter in the yards is so awesome. Our heat is steam and so are the water heaters. Guess what is taken apart for work? But yeah, never turned over the ship. Give me a choice of the yards or solo rowing to Antarctica I guess I am googling penguin recipes.
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More than 200 sailors moved off aircraft carrier after multiple suicides
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/03/politics/uss-george-washington-sailors/index.html
Intersting that you say that about yard work. I saw an extended article about this issue a few months back. Low ranking enlisted sailors were forced to live about the carrier even though work was going on very near their bunks and they got little or no sleep and little time off ship. I got the impression crew morale wasn't high on the list for the leadership until the suicides attracted attention. One former sailor they quoted said he spent 2 years sitting on a bucket acting as a fire watch until he was able to get out. I realize some jobs just suck, but you would think there would be some way to rotate people around.
On the clothing, most every chemical plant on the Texas Gulf coast requires fire retardant clothing which is generally treated cotton (since the 1990's or early 2000's). Underclothes are supposed to be cotton or other non-melty clothing.
Hundreds of Sailors Being Moved Off Carrier After Surge of Suicides, Captain Tells Crew
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2022/04/29/hundreds-of-sailors-being-moved-off-carrier-after-surge-of-suicides-captain-tells-crew.html
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Once again, the Navy has a new uniform for sailors
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/navy-new-uniform-coveralls/?utm_term=Task%26Purpose_Today_10.03.22&utm_campaign=Task%20%26%20Purpose_TPToday_Actives_Dynamic&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email
The flame-resistant outfit is “designed for various working conditions and environments—surface ships, submarines and flight decks,” according to the Navy. “It’s designed to be free of Foreign Object Debris (FOD), and can be worn with flight deck jerseys. There will no longer be a need for commands to buy separate flight deck pants.”
The 2-POC will be issued without charge, will be the standard uniform worn on and off base, and will be issued in blue for junior sailors and khaki for the senior enlisted and officers beginning by the end of 2022.
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At least it's suppose to be flame-resistant this time but please tell me it's not made in China