Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: Hawkmoon on August 23, 2021, 06:14:18 PM
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ShotSpotter is touted as being effective in reducing "gun violence" in marginal neighborhoods. There's just one problem:
It doesn't reduce crime.
https://apnews.com/article/artificial-intelligence-algorithm-technology-police-crime-7e3345485aa668c97606d4b54f9b6220
“ShotSpotter has turned into one of the most important cogs in our wheel of addressing gun violence,” said Toledo, Ohio Police Chief George Kral during a 2019 International Association of Chiefs of Police conference in Chicago.
Researchers who took a look at ShotSpotter’s impacts in communities where it is used came to a different conclusion. One study published in April in the peer-reviewed Journal of Urban Health examined ShotSpotter in 68 large, metropolitan counties from 1999 to 2016, the largest review to date. It found that the technology didn’t reduce gun violence or increase community safety.
“The evidence that we’ve produced suggests that the technology does not reduce firearm violence in the long-term, and the implementation of the technology does not lead to increased murder or weapons related arrests,” said lead author Mitch Doucette.
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Can't type what I want to so I'll just say dumbasses. Not sure if that will get by the filter.
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Yeah, they made a big deal out of installing that here. Hasn't done diddly-squat but they sure are proud of it. Now they've got it in their heads that closing the bars 2 hours earlier is the answer
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Gigglesnort.
They put them all over around here, especially for shootin' holidays.
Double-gigglesnort.
They ain't got enough cops who will run.
Well, damn... I can't share the St. Louis Post-Disgrace's murder maps anymore - they want moneyz...
I didn't even notice the body 75 yards from my front door until I saw it on the interwebz...
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All American emergency services over-respond. Well that is until not having cops came in style. If you really want to do bad things you use other people or autonomous guns to overload the system. Same as any other response triggering mayhem in whatever part of the city you are not doing the real bad thing in. Or if it's low key you want I think the system would struggle with subsonic and muffled.
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"'ShotSpotter has turned into one of the most important cogs in our wheel of addressing gun violence,' said Toledo, Ohio Police Chief George Kral during a 2019 International Association of Chiefs of Police conference in Chicago."
Well... hell, you know... cops are legally permitted to lie... right?
Side remark into my armpit: "...important cogs in our wheel of addressing... ? ? ?... Jeeze, Louise, please."
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I thought SplatShatter's primary purpose was to pinpoint where the coroner's van was supposed to make its next pick up?
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While this technology is pretty useless from a crime prevention standpoint, it's amazing in accuracy.
Accuracy depends on proper sensor placement and distance to sensor. My familiarity with the systems is in Washington, DC where there is a large deployment. Areas with well engineered coverage, generally not the best neighborhoods, have given locations to within just a few feet. I've found shell casings using gps coordinates that are EXACTLY where the report stemmed from.
Allegedly the sounds are analyzed to ignore non gunshots, such as the many Independence Day fireworks some cities get.
Not sure if the cost is worth the results...
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I thought SplatShatter's primary purpose was to pinpoint where the coroner's van was supposed to make its next pick up?
Nowadays just send out two guys with a cart yelling "bring out your dead" every morning
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....
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I work in Columbus, Ohio. Columbus PD uses this system. A cop I know who works in administration told me that they use the system to detect gunfire, with the goal being to get officer responding to the area faster than waiting for a 911 call. The end goal is to catch the shooters before they have a chance to flee the area. He will also admit that it's another "feel good P.R." measure, as it rarely does more than tell them the general area where a shot was fired.
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From a practical standpoint, ignoring the political aspect, how is this system better than just having cameras everywhere?
Can't the cameras be equipped to record audio?
Maybe run them so that any decibel spike over a certain amount sends a real-time alert to an actual person and then they can see the footage and if it's gunfire they can dispatch the needed responders.
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From a practical standpoint, ignoring the political aspect, how is this system better than just having cameras everywhere?
Can't the cameras be equipped to record audio?
Maybe run them so that any decibel spike over a certain amount sends a real-time alert to an actual person and then they can see the footage and if it's gunfire they can dispatch the needed responders.
Coverage area per gizmo. It doesn't take anywhere near as many of the shotspotter mics to cover a large area as it would take cameras.
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I recall reading that the British have elaborate CCTV monitor systems in their larger cities. I wonder if they use ShotSpotter in conjunction with the existing camera system.
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From a practical standpoint, ignoring the political aspect, how is this system better than just having cameras everywhere?
Can't the cameras be equipped to record audio?
Maybe run them so that any decibel spike over a certain amount sends a real-time alert to an actual person and then they can see the footage and if it's gunfire they can dispatch the needed responders.
As Castle Key pointed out, there is a high resolution geolocation aspect to it.
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I am curious how well it would work if you used a suppressor rifle with supersonic ammo. The noise would be from the supersonic crack, not the rifle. Hard to say.
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I am curious how well it would work if you used a suppressor rifle with supersonic ammo. The noise would be from the supersonic crack, not the rifle. Hard to say.
That would be interesting (not that I want to see silencers get any more antigun press). From a lot of the "why use silencers?" videos I have watched, the BTDT trigger pullers are more concerned with a silencer's ability to mask sound direction than they are in its actual sound suppression ability.
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In the local news this morning
More of what we already know isn't working. It hasn't done diddly-squat in the areas where it's been installed already .
High crime neighborhoods in Louisville need ShotSpotter, councilman says
https://www.wave3.com/2021/08/26/high-crime-neighborhoods-louisville-need-shotspotter-councilman-says/
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All you need is some new thingy (regardless of its efficacy) and the right barker.
I've been thinking of creating the next fad. What do you think about pet wheels?
Woody
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I am curious how well it would work if you used a suppressor rifle with supersonic ammo. The noise would be from the supersonic crack, not the rifle. Hard to say.
I suspect since they're going after the first noise, the 'first" noise would be the supersonic crack as the bullet exits the suppressor /silencer / muffler.
In other words, at the site of the shooter anyway.
Terry, 230RN
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I suspect since they're going after the first noise, the 'first" noise would be the supersonic crack as the bullet exits the suppressor /silencer / muffler.
In other words, at the site of the shooter anyway.
Terry, 230RN
I have just heard that sound propagates differently so I wonder if the location would be spotted in the same way. Not to mention the decibel level is lower. The first sound the local sensor sees might be from downrange a bit. I would bet someone has tested it. Just curious.
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In the local news this morning
More of what we already know isn't working. It hasn't done diddly-squat in the areas where it's been installed already .
High crime neighborhoods in Louisville need ShotSpotter, councilman says
https://www.wave3.com/2021/08/26/high-crime-neighborhoods-louisville-need-shotspotter-councilman-says/
It seems to me that it is really just a triage on crime. Even if you get cops there immediately and catch the shooter 100% of the time, if that is all that happens, what does that do for crime? Are police running around chasing gun shots instead of patrolling and responding to smaller crimes? What about stabbings? Also, will the shooters they catch be prosecuted or plea down to lesser crimes and see little jail time?
"Crime" is affected by so many more things than just the initial response. Everyone focuses solely on response time and getting police to the scene. There is little focus on investigations and prosecution of the criminals.
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The need is for DA's who will prosecute to the full extent of the law.
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It seems to me that it is really just a triage on crime. Even if you get cops there immediately and catch the shooter 100% of the time, if that is all that happens, what does that do for crime? Are police running around chasing gun shots instead of patrolling and responding to smaller crimes? What about stabbings? Also, will the shooters they catch be prosecuted or plea down to lesser crimes and see little jail time?
"Crime" is affected by so many more things than just the initial response. Everyone focuses solely on response time and getting police to the scene. There is little focus on investigations and prosecution of the criminals.
That's why non-infringed defense of life, limb, and property is paramount to a free society. How does that saying go? Oh, yeah: "An armed society is a polite society". Polite people neither murder, maim, nor steal.
Woody
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50313555198_2a6a3f9e20_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jE384C)
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Our DA doesn't bother to send lawyers to murder trials.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50313555198_2a6a3f9e20_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jE384C)
Either the logic of this is too obvious to be seen as efficacious, or it is purposefully ignored to the benefit of the ends sought. I go with the latter. :old:
Woody
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That's why non-infringed defense of life, limb, and property is paramount to a free society. How does that saying go? Oh, yeah: "An armed society is a polite society". Polite people neither murder, maim, nor steal.
Woody
Where'd you get that saying? I'd like to use it sometime.
"Uninfringed." Now you're heading into my territory. I've heard tell that maybe the old wild wild west was not as wild as the movies and TV made / make it out to be.
After all, who would sit through a western with no rustlers, evil bankers, card sharks, interfamily feuds, intrafamily feuds, bad guys and drunks being thrown out through the saloon doors, a mule-mounted stranger gunning down five guys from fifty feet away by fanning his piece from the hip...
Oh, and F Troop wthout Wrangler Jane...
Terry, 230RN
REF:
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/gallery-season-one-91465-melody-patterson-picture-id93737315?k=20&m=93737315&s=612x612&w=0&h=vAfQyox3QRMFP5o5v8Z64w3gliZW3DIcu9Rg_RIU-aw=)
Melody Patterson as Wrangler Jane. Note gun.
Pic credit in properties.
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https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/four-problems-with-the-shotspotter-gunshot-detection-system/
Four Problems with the ShotSpotter Gunshot Detection System
ShotSpotter false alarms send police on numerous trips (in Chicago, more than 60 times a day) into communities for no reason and on high alert expecting to potentially confront a dangerous situation. Given the already tragic number of shootings of Black people by police, that is a recipe for trouble.
That is a lot of false alarms.
The worst part about it is David Chipman worked for them.
https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2021/08/25/chicago-watchdog-says-shotspotter-does-little-to-stop-crime-n49244
I also heard the cost might be as much as $11 million a year. That could pay a lot of extra police officers and/or prosecutors.
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Our DA doesn't bother to send lawyers to murder trials.
That is why we need to be the "New Minutemen". We are our own first line of defense and, in the course of defending ourselves, if a person is committing a serious crime is treated accordingly, the number of people likely to commit such crimes will be reduced.
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^
That is why we need to be the "New Minutemen". We are our own first line of defense and, in the course of defending ourselves, if a person is committing a serious crime is treated accordingly, the number of people likely to commit such crimes will be reduced.
I have often recommended that everybody --everybody --gets a gun, and then 'we let natural selection work its magic until there's only one crime kingpin left. Then we go after him for tax evasion."
And people think I'm just kidding around.
But remember the St. Valentine's Day massacre.
There'd be some innocent casualties, but I suspect it would be about the same rate as in the present situation, then drop to near-zero as we approach the "One Kingpin" situation.
I call it Terry's Theory of Crime Reduction.
Terry, 230RN
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I'll try to find the article, but I read a couple of different pieces in the last couple of weeks regarding the ShotSpotter system where people were wrongfully convicted based on ShotSpotter "evidence" alone. Turns out that the company was allegedly reclassifying non-gunshot logged events into gunshots to "prove" someone shot someone else.
ETA:
Here's one - pretty damning in my opinion.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8xbq/police-are-telling-shotspotter-to-alter-evidence-from-gunshot-detecting-ai
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This is AFTER they installed ShotSpotter.
Yeah, it works wonders :facepalm:
Louisville monthly homicides in double digits for 19 straight months
https://www.wave3.com/2021/08/28/louisville-monthly-homicides-double-digits-19-straight-months/
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I'll try to find the article, but I read a couple of different pieces in the last couple of weeks regarding the ShotSpotter system where people were wrongfully convicted based on ShotSpotter "evidence" alone. Turns out that the company was allegedly reclassifying non-gunshot logged events into gunshots to "prove" someone shot someone else.
ETA:
Here's one - pretty damning in my opinion.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/qj8xbq/police-are-telling-shotspotter-to-alter-evidence-from-gunshot-detecting-ai
Good write up. Sounds like it might be okay as a detection system, but it falls very very short when they try to use it as evidence against people. The court should never allow it as evidence without better evaluation of its accuracy/integrity. At the least, there needs to be records and procedures for saving the raw audio files and archiving them such that they cannot be altered.
If it can't be used as evidence, then the cost may not be worth it. Sounds like cops were grasping at anything available to pin the crime on the people they "know" did it even if the evidence is worthless. And the company representative was happy to lie about the evidence.
Over the years, ShotSpotter’s claims about its accuracy have increased, from 80 percent accurate to 90 percent accurate to 97 percent accurate. According to Greene, those numbers aren’t actually calculated by engineers, though.
“Our guarantee was put together by our sales and marketing department, not our engineers,” Greene told a San Francisco court in 2017. “We need to give them [customers] a number … We have to tell them something. … It’s not perfect. The dot on the map is simply a starting point.”
In May, the MacArthur Justice Center analyzed ShotSpotter data and found that over a 21-month period 89 percent of the alerts the technology generated in Chicago led to no evidence of a gun crime and 86 percent of the alerts led to no evidence a crime had been committed at all.
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Where'd you get that saying? I'd like to use it sometime.
"Uninfringed." Now you're heading into my territory. I've heard tell that maybe the old wild wild west was not as wild as the movies and TV made / make it out to be.
After all, who would sit through a western with no rustlers, evil bankers, card sharks, interfamily feuds, intrafamily feuds, bad guys and drunks being thrown out through the saloon doors, a mule-mounted stranger gunning down five guys from fifty feet away by fanning his piece from the hip...
Oh, and F Troop wthout Wrangler Jane...
Terry, 230RN
REF:
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/gallery-season-one-91465-melody-patterson-picture-id93737315?k=20&m=93737315&s=612x612&w=0&h=vAfQyox3QRMFP5o5v8Z64w3gliZW3DIcu9Rg_RIU-aw=)
Melody Patterson as Wrangler Jane. Note gun.
Pic credit in properties.
I think I saw it on the internet some where ... =)
Woody
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Good write up. Sounds like it might be okay as a detection system, but it falls very very short when they try to use it as evidence against people. The court should never allow it as evidence without better evaluation of its accuracy/integrity. At the least, there needs to be records and procedures for saving the raw audio files and archiving them such that they cannot be altered.
If it can't be used as evidence, then the cost may not be worth it. Sounds like cops were grasping at anything available to pin the crime on the people they "know" did it even if the evidence is worthless. And the company representative was happy to lie about the evidence.
Agreed.
Bolding mine.
With my normal geriatric "paranoia," I'm beginning to wonder if the enforcement officials' apparently irrational defense of the system is based on its possible real future use as an "insurrection detector."
Note I did not say "riot detector" or "peaceful protest" detector, since officials don't seem to care about those things.
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I don't know if there is any great planning to it. I think the company billed itself as the answer to violent crime (with anti-gun people cheering it) and convince politicians to give them a bunch of money. They talked up the system and made up numbers on how accurate it is. Police investigators and prosecutors get the idea to drag the data into court to support flimsy cases against people and sell it to ignorant juries (and apparently ignorant Judges).