Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Bogie on October 27, 2021, 01:13:48 PM
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I'm considering supplementing my electric zone system in January/February...
No, I'm not getting the gas turned back on - the bastards were charging me $30/month even when I had everything turned off (when I was driving over the road) just to have it available.
Last year, my heating bill with just electric was about $300 over "baseline" use.
But I would like to have something to punch things up a little on those days that are under 20 degrees and windy.
Any recommendations? I've got a kerosene heater running diesel in the workshop. The diesel makes it a bit of a hassle, but not all that bad.
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"No, I'm not getting the gas turned back on - the bastards were charging me $30/month even when I had everything turned off (when I was driving over the road) just to have it available."
Better turn your electric off, too. They do the same thing.
For incidental use, though, I'd really consider propane, something like a Big Buddy heater. You can get a fairly long hose and regulator that will allow you to run it from a bulk tank outside.
You can get a 40-pound cylinder at Lowes for a little over $100.
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I actually use electricity.
Nine months of the year, no gas.
My heating bill for the three really cold months runs about $100/month over months like October, when I'm not using either heating or cooling.
I've considered trying to rig some sort of passive solar, but not sure how many weeks/year that would buy me.
A wood stove crossed my mind - I heated with one in the early 1980s for a few years. But the installation would be a hassle.
I'm also poor. And cheap.
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These are still fairly cheap.
Just open a window.
Or two.
(https://jmfx.net/sites/default/files/Bum_Barrel_Tyra_Banks_Show_0.jpg)
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I have considered a barrel stove, with a waste oil burner, for the workshop. I have a source for waste oil, so after the initial cash, it would basically be free heat for the 400 square foot garage.
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I have both kerosene and propane. I have a kerosene torpedo heater for the shop and one of the "indoor safe" kerosene heaters for emergency use, either in the house or in the well house. While both the kerosene heaters work well, I have to say after using them for 2+ years that were I to do it over again, I would make them propane.
With kerosene, you have to deal with wick maintenance, not leave kerosene sitting in them out of season, etc. It's just a bit of a hassle compared to propane. Obviously use an indoor safe propane heater indoors with proper ventilation, but it just seems easier all the way around to me.
That said, I probably won't get rid of the kerosene heaters since I already have them.
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Why not just a couple of inexpensive electric space heaters? Depending on which model you chose, you could easily add 6000-7500 watts of heat (20-25 KBTU) for less than a C-note. Easy, cheap, and no fuel to futz with or carbon monoxide issues to consider. Only consideration is making sure you keep them plugged into separate circuits.
Brad
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I have a Big Buddy Heater (4000-18000 BTU) and a Mr. Heater Cooker/Heater (15000 BTU) that I use in the deer blind, ice shack and in the garage.
I can get about 20 hours of run time on either heater on medium (~9000 BTU) with #11 propane bottle (double with 20# bottle). I have an 11# bottle so I can carry it around easier. I have 3-20# bottles also that I normally keep 2 full and one on the grill. I just have them refilled at Tractor Supply since it's quick and 4 blocks from my house. If I have a 20# go out of date (TSC checks before filling), I exchange it with a Blue Rhino at a gas station or Menards.
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Someone did the math on different sizes of propane and Buddy Heaters
https://www.in-depthoutdoors.com/community/forums/topic/propane-usage-estimators-for-little-buddy-and-big-buddy-heaters/
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I have a 20K ventless propane heater on the wall here for when it gets chilly but not cold enough to fire up the wood stove. I've been running off a 20# bottle that sits in the corner for years. I've been thinking about hooking to a 100# outside but i'm kinda lazy.
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You're also going to be paying $2-3 a gallon for propane or more this winter.
Might be cheaper to have the gas turned back on.
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You're also going to be paying $2-3 a gallon for propane or more this winter.
Might be cheaper to have the gas turned back on.
Yeah, I only use bottled propane or kerosene for limited heating. I don't know that either of them would save any money as a constant Winter heating source over just getting the piped gas turned back on.
The $30/mo sounds like a ripoff though. I was paying the bills on my dad's empty house in CA before it sold, and the gas bill, even in CA, for having service but not using any appliances outside of the pilot lights was $6/mo.
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I had a kerosene heater for a while. I found that kerosene was much cheaper if you could find somewhere that has it at the pump.
I found three gas stations in the KC metro that had it at the pump.
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Yeah, I only use bottled propane or kerosene for limited heating. I don't know that either of them would save any money as a constant Winter heating source over just getting the piped gas turned back on.
The $30/mo sounds like a ripoff though. I was paying the bills on my dad's empty house in CA before it sold, and the gas bill, even in CA, for having service but not using any appliances outside of the pilot lights was $6/mo.
Alliant Energy in Iowa is $13/month for Natural Gas and $13/month for Electricity, so I pay $26 month just to have energy available to my house. I know those prices (and rate) have to be approved by the State Energy Board (or whatever it is called.)
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I had a kerosene heater for a while. I found that kerosene was much cheaper if you could find somewhere that has it at the pump.
I found three gas stations in the KC metro that had it at the pump.
Yeah, WAY cheaper. There's very few out this way, but one happens to be around 45 minutes away, near other businesses I frequent, so it' and easy mixed trip. When I got my first kerosene heater, I bought the 5gal can of kerosene at the farm store. I seem to recall it was $40ish. That was the first and last time I did that. :laugh:
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Meter fee around these parts runs $20-30 month, depending on area and service.
Brad
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When I was a kid we used two of those big 23K BTU units to help supplement the steam radiators in our big barn of an uninsulated Victorian.
Over time, they left a greasy film on the windows and walls, probably from being started or extinguished inside.
I was, for awhile, seriously considering getting a small 10K BTU one (round one, not one of the square radiant units) to supplement my heat pump, but I always held off because of the experience of using them as a kid.
I finally sprang for the pellet stove. Best thing I ever did.
If you have the money up front, you can get a decent pellet stove like my Castle Serenity for $900 to $1k on sale. Figure another couple hundred for the pad, exhaust venting, and installation (if you don't install it yourself) and between $4 and $6 for a 40 lb bag of pellets.
Depending on how much you pay for heating in the winter with resistance electric, you might be able to get your money back in just a couple of years, and you'll be a lot warmer is my guess.
You can set the electric to basically freeze protection level (I keep my heat pump at 60 in the winter and it only runs when I'm on vacation at T-giving and Christmas) and run the stove when you need it.
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Okay, master of the wheelgun...
NO CHIMNEY?
How the heck does that work?
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Pellet stoves vent directly through the wall using a double-walled pipe, normally 3 or 4 inches in diameter.
Because pellet stoves extract so much heat, the exhaust is normally in the 120-degree F range and thus don't require a masonry or equivalent metal chimney.
This shows one typical way of venting a pellet stove. A 3" pellet stove vent kit generally costs between $200 and $300.
(https://www.ameri-vent.com/files/assets/images/large/1364925677_Pg13_ThroughWallHorizontalInstallation.jpg)
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Okay - I think I'm sold, but that'll probably be next year.
Just saw this, and I think it, or something similar, could be interesting for the workshop. I had a name brand one in the truck, and it worked pretty good, at least until the secondary battery would run out...
https://youtu.be/faz8RtV9t68
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You can generally get some pretty good deals on pellet stoves at the end of the heating season. Ace Hardware will have sales on stoves throughout the year, though. That's where I got my Castle Serenity.
The biggest hassle for me is finding where to store the pellets. Right now I have them racked in my dining room as there's no easy way for me to get them to my back yard.
This year I had a friend help me. I made two trips and got 40 bags which, given forecasts for this winter, should last me for the winter.
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It does seem a bit oversized... The house is a whopping 765 square feet. Basically three rooms. The center doesn't really lend itself to installing it, so probably the front room, since I don't think I'd be happy with it in the bedroom.
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There are some smaller capacity pellet stoves available on the market, but I don't know much about them. My townhouse is about 1500 square feet, and my Castle does a very good job of keeping it comfortable (first and second floors, basement I don't worry about).
But, I've not really had to test it as the last two winters have been kind of warm.
One thing I didn't mention is that you can also often find used pellet stoves for sale for significantly less than what a new one would cost.
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Can you turn it off? With my wood stove, I'd just choke it down...
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pellet stoves are less like wood stoves and more like electric heaters.
You can easily ramp them up or down or turn them off or on with the flip of a switch.
Mine is programmable in that I can set it to come on at 4 a.m., an hour before I get up, and it shuts down automatically at 6 a.m. when I'm heading out the door for work.
The ignition cycle, from turning it on to actually getting heat out of it, takes around 7 minutes, IIRC.
When I shut it down it goes through an automatic shutdown and cool down process that takes roughly 20 or so minutes.
After that shutdown period I can turn it back on and get heat in 7 minutes.
Some of the higher end stoves are fully thermostatic programable in that the thermostat will fire them and shut them down just like a home furnace.
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Now I just have to figure how to drill a hole through the concrete block wall... But that's a LOT easier than going through the roof.
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I'd suggest det cord, but that might go through the wall AND the roof at the same time.
It shouldn't be too hard to go through a concrete block wall. I know more than a few people who have installed pellet stoves through old homes with triple brick construction. It just takes time and drill bits.
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3" hole is gonna be interesting tho... Good thing that China Fright is just up the street.
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So, you're figuring 40 bags for the whole winter? About 1600 pounds? At a bit over $200?
Damn.
I have to figure out how to do that...
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The last two winters have been about 40 bags, and given the long-range forecast, that's what I'm expecting to use this year, as well.
If the winter is a lot colder, I'll use more, of course. Fortunately, the supply is pretty stable, but it does kind of peter out towards the end of the winter.
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I tend to use the van as a streetside storage unit... And guess what? 3/4 ton...
I suspect I'd have significantly less burn time than you, however - and the house is pretty darn small. I saw a pellet furnace on Craigslist that I could likely hook up to existing duct work (about 16 linear feat or so...), after ripping out the existing thing, but...
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Hum...
You know, this may be the pellet stove for you.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/cleveland-iron-works-pellet-stove-18-lb-hopper-f500215-1407291?cm_mmc=feed-_-BingShopping-_-Product-_-1407291&msclkid=f75cfbf945d218c571f89a83c6d786a3&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping%20-%20All%20Products&utm_term=4585375807245420&utm_content=All%20Products
Here's the manufacturer's website for it: https://www.cleveland-ironworks.com/no-215-mini-pellet-stove.html
It's small, it's rated for 800 square feet, and it has built in smart home capabilities (don't know what the requirements are for that) so that you can control it remotely.
The only drawback is that it only has an 18 pound hopper (slightly less than a half bag of pellets).
The AFUE is REALLY good at 86%. That's quite a bit better than my Castle Serenity.
In reading through the manual it requires a bit more in the way of cleaning than mine. That's because it has more complex heat exchangers (the Castle's is really simple), that's how you get the greater efficiency.
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Thanks - looks like that could be it - if everyone is still in business next year. There's a spot in my living room that will be great for it. I'll have to lose the ivy on an outside wall, but I've been meaning to do that.
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Be sure to keep us up to date on how you make out with it.
As I've repeatedly said, adding a pellet stove to my house is, by far, the best home improvement I've ever made in the way of comfort and livability.
Yes, humping and storing the pellets is both a challenge and somewhat a pain in the butt, but being able to sit in my living room and actually be warm, instead of shivering under a blanket, is more than worth it.
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Bogie - what K Frame said about the "film" left by kerosene heaters is correct. They also have more smell than propane.
My workroom is somewhat insulated (2" thick pink foam boards) and inside an unheated pole barn. I have a catalytic heater that clamps on the handle of a 20 lb. bottle and, on full, can drive me out of the workroom in about 10 minutes when it is 0o outside. The room is about 175 sq. ft. (9 x 20) and the heater is about 6-8' from the far end. The workbench is about in the middle so the heater, which provides both radiant and hot air, is about 6' from the bench. There is a large metal cabinet and an upright freezer just inside the door which are farthest away from the heater. There is no smell from this heater but I have to leave the door open about 1" to allow fresh air to enter because this thing does use the O2 up rather quickly.
Considering the small size you mentioned, the kerosene would be a "no go" because of smell, residue, and mess. The propane heater could be put in a corner (with 12" clearance) of either your coldest or your largest room and would make a big difference. If you use it in conjunction with your electric heating, it will bring your room up to temperature more quickly but the furnace blower would help spread that around. Once at the desired temp., the propane can be shut off, removing any possibility of CO poisoning.
Good luck.
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My workshop is VERY drafty. You can see light in places. I really need to move stuff away from the walls, and put SOMETHING on the studs, but... Time and money. Probably going to put up some of the foil-sheathed insulation panels... Be an excuse to use the nailgun/stapler...
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The more I look at that Cleveland Ironworks stove, the more I like it. And it gets REALLY good reviews on line.
If your workshop is that drafty, you might well do better with an electric radiant unit like this:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Hanover-34-6-in-Wide-Electric-Carbon-Infrared-Heat-Lamp-with-Remote-Control-Black/1002297410
You can mount them to the wall; some of them have a portable stand, as well.
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And looking at the Cleveland Ironworks pellet stove.
Now... Do you think I could use my existing "through the roof" furnace flue? Looks like double pipe.
I'm going to remove the furnace/AC stuff, since it was making really horrid noises when running the AC, and I was scared it would kill me if I used it with natural gas. Plan is to replace with a pellet stove, probably the Cleveland one, and a pair of air conditioners (probably window-unit type.
House is 765 square feet.
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"Now... Do you think I could use my existing "through the roof" furnace flue? Looks like double pipe. "
NO! Absolutely not!
Gas appliances vent using B pipe, which is not suitable for use in venting a pellet stove.
Pellet stoves require L vent pipe. The difference is that B vent is an aluminum inner pipe, while L vent is stainless steel. A pellet stove's combustion by products will very quickly rot out the aluminum inner pipe on B vent.
You CANNOT use B vent with a pellet stove unless you're a fan of house fires.
Also remember that where your old furnace is located may not be the best place to locate your pellet stove. Unless they're specifically designed to be hooked into your furnace venting, pellet stoves are area heaters.
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Yesterday was the first really good cold day we've had since I bought my pellet stove -- about 19 overnight and barely above freezing.
I ran the stove from around 6:30 a.m. to about midnight. I did shut it down for about 2 hours midday to clean it, but it kept the living room nice and toasty, the dining room and kitchen warm, and the upstairs, by the time I finally went to bed, at around 68 degrees. My bedroom was cooler than that, but I don't mind that because I sleep under an incredible goose down comforter.
I run the air handler fan 24x7 to help distribute heat. I have one large air intake in the living room near the stove and another one in the upstairs hallway. I'm thinking over covering the one in the living room during the winter to see if I can get the one in the upstairs hall to create a better circular flow.
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I run the air handler fan 24x7 to help distribute heat. I have one large air intake in the living room near the stove and another one in the upstairs hallway. I'm thinking over covering the one in the living room during the winter to see if I can get the one in the upstairs hall to create a better circular flow.
Hey, that's a good idea. I need to try covering one of the ones in the warm part of my house when I'm heating via wood stove to see if it helps circulate warm air to the "extremities" of the house.
I like sleeping cold as well, but don't necessarily like walking into the master bed/bath when it's 62 in there during the day.
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I'm going to get a sheet of the flexible magnetic vinyl and cut a cover for the return. Amazon carries it. I just need to measure it first to make sure I get enough.
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I'm going to get a sheet of the flexible magnetic vinyl and cut a cover for the return. Amazon carries it. I just need to measure it first to make sure I get enough.
I got some of that from Amazon some years ago for my parents' house, as they were having comfort issues between upstairs and downstairs. At the time, Amazon was selling them precut to the more common register sizes. I don't know the pricing differences between precut and do-it-yourself.
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Well these should be interesting experiments.
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And... I think the pipe up through my roof is 4" inside diameter...
Yeah, it probably isn't the right kind of pipe.
But can I run the right kind of pipe inside it? That would save me cutting another hole in the roof. I can run it taller than the existing pipe if necessary, and easily make some 3" inside diameter/whatever outside diameter spacers if necessary.
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"But can I run the right kind of pipe inside it? That would save me cutting another hole in the roof. I can run it taller than the existing pipe if necessary, and easily make some 3" inside diameter/whatever outside diameter spacers if necessary. "
That's an interesting question, but I suspect that would be fine because you wouldn't be depending on the old furnace pipe to carry combustion products, essentially it would be a chase and thimble all in one.
The other alternative is, of course, removing the old furnace vent and running the pellet stove vent up through the same holes.
And, if you went with a 4" pellet stove vent, you probably wouldn't even have to replace the thimbles.
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oh, and no matter what you do, make sure that you figure in room so that you can get to the vent clean out cap.
You'll need to sweep the vent pipe at least once a year (a lot of people do it every ton they burn) because you do get a build up of soot and fly ash in the pipe.
If you sweep from the top using a rotary brush you can then just open the clean out cap and dump the accumulated soot and fly ash.
I have my clean out on the outside of the house, which makes it a lot easier. All of the soot and fly ash just falls right onto the ground.
It also makes it a lot easier to hook up the leaf blower (on vacuum). That's a great trick for really cleaning out ash that accumulates in places you can't really reach. You just have to make certain to disconnect the vacuum switch tubing before you use the leaf vac.
You'll also need room to get to the combustion blower (usually through an access panel in the side of the stove) so that you can clean that.
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Looked at it - Pipe diameter is closer to 6", and has a 4-5" pipe inside it. The furnace/ac, of course, is directly below. That would all come out, the duct work would come out, and the pipe would go straight up. I'd actually like to take out the walls of the "closet-type" area that it shares with the water heater. That area is in roughly the center of my 765 square foot semi-shotgun house.
The optimal "through the wall" location is in the living room, which is at one end. Bedroom is the other, of course.
Construction is concrete block. I would eventually like to cut a door in the bedroom to the back yard area, and put an add-on deckroom there. The existing "back door" is to the side, but is unused. No knob, no nothing on the outside. Not a hazard, because all I need to do is lift the crossbar.
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I'd say that you'd need to consult with your local code office to make sure such an installation would be allowable, but I can't really see why it wouldn't be. It would be not unlike running the pellet stove vent up through a masonry chimney.
You may even be able to use a flexible stainless steel pipe designed for use in a masonry chimney.
I'm going to ask this question in my pellet stove group on Facebook.
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You might not have adequate clearance to combustibles. Type L requires 3" clearance to combustible, the old type B vent only requires 1".
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Hum.... I thought type B was also 3"...
Yeah, that would be a consideration...