Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: BobR on January 22, 2022, 04:51:39 PM
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Dr. P sent out an email last night.
Essentially anything you had banked with Front Sight to pay for ammo, background, etc is now gone.
A few highlights.
Starting JANUARY 1, 2022, in order to retain and maintain their membership and all assets in their membership, each member must pay a $50 per month Membership Maintenance Fee that can be charged monthly via a credit card or made with a single, annual payment of $500 to save to cost of two monthly payments. Payments must be made by cash, check or credit card. This fee is non-refundable. This fee cannot be paid from a member's F$ Bucks account. NOTE: If you respond immediately, meaning TODAY, and pay your Membership Maintenance Fee with a single payment, saving two months of payments, as an Exchange in Abundance for doing so, I will place 5 (five) Front Sight Coins in your Front Sight Account to make your first year's Membership Maintenance Fee essentially FREE.
Starting February 15, 2022, every student or member attending a course, prior to enrollment acceptance must either show proof of a minimum of $100,000 in personal liability insurance to cover them against damages they cause to other persons or property while engaged in the handling, carrying, and shooting of firearms, and training with firearms from the sling, holster and concealed holster while on Front Sight property, OR purchase said liability insurance covering Front Sight, and naming the student or member as an additional insured, from a vendor of Front Sight's choosing, at a cost of $25 per day. This fee is non-refundable. This cannot be paid from a member's F$ Bucks account.
Starting IMMEDIATELY, every student or member enrolling in a course, prior to enrollment acceptance must pay a $25 per day Facility Fee for the number of days of their course. This fee applies to every course at Front Sight including Private Training. This fee is non-refundable. If the member has funds in their F$ Bucks account, the fee can be paid from their F$ Bucks account. Students and members already enrolled and confirmed for a course in 2022 do not have to pay the $25 per day Facility Fee, but every student or member enrolling in a course from this date forward must pay the $25 per day daily Facility Fee. Please use the Exchange in Abundance that I have provided by refunding past purchases into your F$ Bucks account to pay for the Facility Fee.
Starting IMMEDIATELY, every student or member attending a course, prior to enrollment acceptance must pay a $25 per day Staff Support Fee for the number of days of their course. This fee is non-refundable. If the member has funds in their F$ Bucks account, the fee can be paid from their F$ Bucks account. Students and members already enrolled and confirmed for a course in 2022 do not have to pay the $25 per day Staff Support Fee, but every student or member enrolling in a course from this date forward must pay the $25 per day daily Staff Support Fee. Please use the Exchange in Abundance that I have provided by refunding past purchases into your F$ Bucks account to pay for the Staff Support Fee.
So there is already talk of class action and trying for an AG investigation. Whatever happens it is essentially over. He had a good run.
Now to screw on my tinfoil hat; I believe he is eyeing sale or lease of land to a solar energy company. Right now there are 6 solar farms trying to get BLM approval to use the desert in southern Nye County for solar farms but there is a lot of grassroots push back. They could take his acreage and build a couple of large farms.
bob
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I'm surprised it took this long to crack the quack.
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I wonder who is the liability insurance vendor of Frontsight's choosing. Interesting that he has structured that so that EACH student is buying a policy that covers Frontsight first, and has the student as an additional named insured. If I'm buying the policy, I expect that I will be the primary named insured.
As for buying a policy elsewhere, I seriously doubt there's any insurance company in the world that issues policies covering [specifically]: "... against damages they cause to other persons or property while engaged in the handling, carrying, and shooting of firearms, and training with firearms from the sling, holster and concealed holster." I doubt his approved policy is that specific, either.
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So, if I'm reading that right...
If you're taking a 5-day course there...
$50 monthly fee
$25 a day insurance fee
$25 a day facility fee
$25 a day staff fee
PLUS the cost of the course.
So, each day it is, essentially, an extra $80, or $400 for the 5 days, on top of the course fee and any incidentals.
Wow.
OK.
Sounds like the place is about bankrupt and he's trying to dig it out.
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Sounds a lot like the old gpal business model run by Lady Ben Cannon https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebencannon (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebencannon)
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Sounds a lot like the old gpal business model run by Lady Ben Cannon https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebencannon (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thebencannon)
I'm not familiar with that, but I did go to Front Sight once about 20 years ago. Even back then their marketing was over-the-top and a bit sleazy.
They must be getting short on income. Or they are about to lose a lawsuit so they need to start raising cash.
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I'm not familiar with that, but I did go to Front Sight once about 20 years ago. Even back then their marketing was over-the-top and a bit sleazy.
They must be getting short on income. Or they are about to lose a lawsuit so they need to start raising cash.
The Gunpal debacle.
The "Lady Benjamin" thing is a twist I did not see coming.
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The Gunpal debacle.
The "Lady Benjamin" thing is a twist I did not see coming.
Nope, but now you can’t criticize its business practices.
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So, if I'm reading that right...
If you're taking a 5-day course there...
$50 monthly fee
$25 a day insurance fee
$25 a day facility fee
$25 a day staff fee
PLUS the cost of the course.
So, each day it is, essentially, an extra $80, or $400 for the 5 days, on top of the course fee and any incidentals.
Wow.
OK.
Sounds like the place is about bankrupt and he's trying to dig it out.
Plus the cost of ammo. He is charging about .50 cpr for 9mm and 1.25 cpr for 223. A guy on a local board just took a 12 gauge course, ammo was 42 dollars per box of 25. And you need more than one.
He tried to get a loan to do some work done and got into bed with someone who promised more than they could deliver, then they wanted their money back and had to sue to get a default judgement. I am sure it is more complicated. He sent out a email blaming members for not coughing up the money to pay off his poor business practice. There are quite a few angry people.
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So, if I'm reading that right...
If you're taking a 5-day course there...
$50 monthly fee
$25 a day insurance fee
$25 a day facility fee
$25 a day staff fee
PLUS the cost of the course.
So, each day it is, essentially, an extra $80, or $400 for the 5 days, on top of the course fee and any incidentals.
Plus the cost of the ammo, which in today's market will be "significant" even for a 2-day class, let alone a 5-day advanced course.
Sounds like the place is about bankrupt and he's trying to dig it out.
Agreed.
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:rofl: :rofl:
I hope he finally goes under. He's such a cringy asshat.
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"The "Lady Benjamin" thing is a twist I did not see coming. "
Wait, what? Did I miss something with the GunPal debacle?
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"Plus the cost of ammo. He is charging about .50 cpr for 9mm and 1.25 cpr for 223. A guy on a local board just took a 12 gauge course, ammo was 42 dollars per box of 25. And you need more than one."
Wait... are you saying that you have to buy your ammo from him if you take a course there? You can't bring your own ammo?
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Wait... are you saying that you have to buy your ammo from him if you take a course there? You can't bring your own ammo?
That's not uncommon. Thunder Ranch has the same policy.
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Alright
I will admit I knew zip about Front Sight so I went to their website and this immediately caught my eye
With nearly a million responsible citizens trained, from every town, city and state across the United States, I know Front Sight gun training is right for you
Nearly a million? BS or not?
Founded 1996
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_Sight_Firearms_Training_Institute
1,000,000* / 25 (I'm not counting 2022) = 40,000 people a/year. Yeah, right
*Nearly a million could mean almost anything but even if 500,000 that's still 20,000 people a/year. Even that number sounds way high to me.
Is it realistic that that many people could have gone through Front Sight?
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That's not uncommon. Thunder Ranch has the same policy.
Does he make you stay onsite in his own hotel for $250 a night?
Does he make you eat all of your meals in his dining hall for $35 a meal?
Sounds like he's missing out on a couple of important revenue streams.
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Wait... are you saying that you have to buy your ammo from him if you take a course there? You can't bring your own ammo?
No, you don't have to buy their ammo. They do have restrictions on steel jacket, steel core, and other types, but you can bring your own.
https://www.frontsight.com/firearms-training/ammo-required.asp
Speaking of their website, it sucks. It hasn't been changed in 20 years. It looks cheap and sleazy, just like Piazza, who still has the same photo on his website.
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Does he make you stay onsite in his own hotel for $250 a night?
Does he make you eat all of your meals in his dining hall for $35 a meal?
Sounds like he's missing out on a couple of important revenue streams.
I believe Thunder Ranch and some others do it for safety / fire safety / to protect themselves from their respective state governments. When I was looking at taking a Thunder Ranch class last year, I recall the ammo price was not much different than going rates.
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That's not uncommon. Thunder Ranch has the same policy.
Thunder Ranch requires frangible, lead-free ammo, but you don't have to buy from them.
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No, you don't have to buy their ammo. They do have restrictions on steel jacket, steel core, and other types, but you can bring your own.
https://www.frontsight.com/firearms-training/ammo-required.asp
Speaking of their website, it sucks. It hasn't been changed in 20 years. It looks cheap and sleazy, just like Piazza, who still has the same photo on his website.
The site reads like something a used car lot would say trying to sell you a $3,000 a/year warranty on a $500 used car.
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Thunder Ranch requires frangible, lead-free ammo, but you don't have to buy from them.
Yes, you're right. I just went back to the website and saw that. I think I got mixed up because I would have just bought from Sinterfire vs looking on my own for frangible.
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Now I know what's bugging me about his photo.
Reminds me of
(https://advanced-television.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Borat.jpg)
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Now I know what's bugging me about his photo
(https://advanced-television.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Borat.jpg)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I always associate his first name with this guy:
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.gr-assets.com%2Fimages%2FS%2Fcompressed.photo.goodreads.com%2Fbooks%2F1485869631i%2F310612._UY1428_SS1428_.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
https://www.litcharts.com/lit/a-confederacy-of-dunces/characters/ignatius-j-reilly
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I first heard about Front Sight probably 20 years ago - I thought "This sounds good . . . in fact, it sounds TOO good. Something's just not right here."
I then put it out of my mind and only rarely heard anything about it until this thread. Looks like my first impression was . . . "on target." ;)
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I first heard about Front Sight probably 20 years ago - I thought "This sounds good . . . in fact, it sounds TOO good. Something's just not right here."
I then put it out of my mind and only rarely heard anything about it until this thread. Looks like my first impression was . . . "on target." ;)
I thought the same thing, but I actually went to a class there. The training was good, but the used car sales and marketing tactics were horrible.
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Was that the Ignatz Pizza spam guy?
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Was that the Ignatz Pizza spam guy?
Yes.
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The incredible amount of spam email from that source caused me to lose all interest in his operation.