Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on February 06, 2022, 07:49:14 AM
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Another no knock warrant death. Regardless of the guilt or innocence of the victim, this particular incident really got my attention because of the image included in the article.
This would be exactly how I would die if the cops did a "wrong address" no knock at my house. Door gets bashed in while I'm asleep, I grab the gun next to my bed, and being only half awake, I get plugged. No knocks have to stop.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-protest-amir-locke-no-knock-warrant-shooting-death
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It was a legal shoot, but still a bad shoot.
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Part of the problem is that a lot of police forces have gone full tactical... Us vs. Them, with all the gear that taxpayers will afford. And if you oppose that, why do you hate cops?
What do you end up with? A stack of adrenaline junkies who will, without a hell of a lot of thought, kick a door to serve a warrant for parking tickets...
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So Hizzoner, the mayor, says he "eliminated" no knock warrants two years ago, but they continued and now his excuse is that he is not notified when a judge issues such a warrant.
Okay -- the judges don't work for the city. But the cops do -- so if the city really intends to eliminate no knock warrants, make it the SOP that ALL such requests must be approved -- in writing -- by the mayor before being taken to a judge. Any cop who fails to observe that protocol gets two weeks off without pay for a first offense, a month without pay for a second offense, and termination for a third offense.
And the judges all get notified that any request for a no knock that doesn't bear the mayor's signature is automatically invalid.
But ending no knocks is only part of the problem. We also have to end so-called "knock and announce" dynamic entries, where the cops tap gently on the door, whisper "POLICE! OPEN THE DOOR!" and then 30-1/2 seconds later smash in the door. Functionally, there is no difference at oh-dark-thirty between a no knock and a "knock and announce." I know that I'm a heavy sleeper. I think the courts have ruled that 30 seconds is how long the cops have to wait before they can break down the door on a so-called knock and announce raid. That's not enough time. I KNOW that some mornings I don't wake up until 6:10 or so -- and the alarm goes off at 06:00, so I sleep through the alarm for ten minutes. How can I expect to wake up, recognize and understand that someone is knocking on my door, register that fact, and get from the bedroom to the door within thirty seconds? Especially since what I should be allowed to do is to first call the police and ask if they have dispatched cops to my address.
A number of years ago I received a phone call from the local PD dispatcher, advising me that there were officers waiting to enter my house and that I needed to secure my dogs. This was interesting to me because (a) I couldn't see any police cars in my driveway, and (b) I didn't own any dogs at the time. It eventually transpired that the cops were at a house a half mile away, and the occupants had the same last name. That family had an unlisted number, so the dispatcher just called the first number he found with that last name -- me.
And some people don't think the cops get information wrong on these warrant requests.
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Pick them up off the street, where they can't dispose of (flush) the evidence.
Like in Hawkmoon's incident. If they knew enough about the guy that he owned dogs, they should probably have known enough about him to be able to dope out other venues and methods for an arrest.
Seems to me that in the Branch Davidian Affair, they had multiple opportunities to arrest David Koresh off the street. If I recall correctly, there was even a time when he was visiting the Sheriff's office.
Part of the problem is that a lot of police forces have gone full tactical... Us vs. Them, with all the gear that taxpayers will afford. And if you oppose that, why do you hate cops?
What do you end up with? A stack of adrenaline junkies who will, without a hell of a lot of thought, kick a door to serve a warrant for parking tickets...
An amusing exaggeration for the sake of a good story but with some pretty freakin' pointy points to it.
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It’s a simple litmus test- if cities burn over it he was probably a POS if it gets quashed fast then he was probably a good guy.
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I'm basically against "no-knocks." But if your going to get a warrant for a specific location, you need to be damned sure your intel is entirely accurate! Some wrong addresses lately have been inexcusable.
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The article is unclear. Did the police think a murder suspect was at the address?
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The article is unclear. Did the police think a murder suspect was at the address?
Yes, but not Locke. He wasn't named on the warrant.
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I'm basically against "no-knocks." But if your going to get a warrant for a specific location, you need to be damned sure your intel is entirely accurate! Some wrong addresses lately have been inexcusable.
ALL the intel. Aside from wrong addresses, there have been numerous documented raids in which the police went to the correct address, but the genius detectives who filed for the warrant hadn't bothered to see if the [alleged] perp still lived there. In many of these cases, the current residents had either rented or bought the premises months before, and they were squeaky clean.
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My house once had the side door opened with a master key. The front door held up, and still has the marks 10 years later... Since I've been working on it, haven't found any stashes... I've considered putting a layer of steel diamondplate on it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z5KnLWn1M0
Warrior Poet Society has a video up on a Nightlock door barricade. It is just a block that installs at the floor level to slow down someone trying to break down your door.
I don't know how good that particular product is, but I figure stuff like that is one of the best ways to avoid what happened to this guy. It at least may help wake you up so you can figure out what to do.
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I showed my Dad the video of this raid and his response was "why didn't they just sneak on in the house?" In other words, they opened the door quietly then yelled "Search Warrant Police" as they entered. It seemed to us their tactics were pretty much designed to wake up the residents and trigger a panic response just as guns and tactical lights were pointed at them. In other words, if the homeowner is armed, the tactics are designed to trigger a response that allows police to legally shoot.
Also, why did they yell "Search Warrant Police"? Why not just yell "Police"? It seems to me that just confuses things for residents that are being surprised.
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It was a legal shoot, but still a bad shoot.
You are probably right, but I thought what some other cops did was technically legal also and that didn't end up mattering.
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Also, why did they yell "Search Warrant Police"? Why not just yell "Police"? It seems to me that just confuses things for residents that are being surprised.
Someone breaking down my front door who yells "police" is still a home invader. Anybody can yell "police".
I'm not knocking your reply, just pointing out that people impersonate the police all the time. If I were a home invader, yelling "police!" would be a good confusion strategy.
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Us vs. Them
This mentality is the root of many problems with police today and I've seen it deeply rooted in the majority of police departments I've worked with. Many people mistake it for racism but it's really a wider issue.
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Frankly, in my ignorant opinion, it seems like looking for a murder suspect is one of the few legitimate uses for no knock warrants.
It seems like a legitimate tragedy. I will leave it to others who know more to determine what the police did wrong.
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Someone breaking down my front door who yells "police" is still a home invader. Anybody can yell "police".
I'm not knocking your reply, just pointing out that people impersonate the police all the time. If I were a home invader, yelling "police!" would be a good confusion strategy.
That is a good point. I just don't know what would be better, even if they were still outside.
I just thought yelling "search warrant police" leans toward the confusing side for someone waking up to people in their house. I think I might catch the first word spoken, but not sure about the 3rd especially with 4 or 5 guys yelling. I am not sure what would be better than just police.
One thing that bugs me online is people who seem to think them yelling "police" means everyone should immediately drop whatever is in their hands and go prone on the ground.
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Frankly, in my ignorant opinion, it seems like looking for a murder suspect is one of the few legitimate uses for no knock warrants.
It seems like a legitimate tragedy. I will leave it to others who know more to determine what the police did wrong.
But looking for a murder suspect would seem to justify spending a little time watching the location to determine if the suspect is there and if there are better opportunities to arrest them.
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While I am NOT advocating for illegal actions I would not shed a tear if after a botched "no knoc"k raid that killed an innocent person or people or dog(s) some person or persons unknown when full Killdozer-Falling Down on the those responsible (police, DA, judge...).
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Unless it is a kidnapping or extreme child abuse situation, why are no knock warrants even necessary?
You would think they could surround the house with a team of officers and serve the search warrant at the front door with a normal knock or ring the doorbell. The officers surrounding the house could catch any runners. If it's for drugs, send the K-9 in as soon as the warrant is served.
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Unless it is a kidnapping or extreme child abuse situation, why are no knock warrants even necessary?
You would think they could surround the house with a team of officers and serve the search warrant at the front door with a normal knock or ring the doorbell. The officers surrounding the house could catch any runners. If it's for drugs, send the K-9 in as soon as the warrant is served.
This is the problem. These no knocks are for drugs, and keeping them from being flushed down the toilet, but have expanded to too many other things. I'm happy for my taxes to go to cops surrounding a house for an hour or a day or a week to keep a murder suspect contained until the situation is resolved. As for flushing drugs, the cost of bad no knocks is not worth it.
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This is the problem. These no knocks are for drugs, and keeping them from being flushed down the toilet, but have expanded to too many other things. I'm happy for my taxes to go to cops surrounding a house for an hour or a day or a week to keep a murder suspect contained until the situation is resolved. As for flushing drugs, the cost of bad no knocks is not worth it.
They need a tactical sewer team to wait with a robot in the sanitary sewer to catch any drugs coming out the pipe.
Rural property, just pump the septic tank.
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Unless it is a kidnapping or extreme child abuse situation, why are no knock warrants even necessary?
Well, if it is a murderer suspect, it might give him less time to get a weapon to shoot you.
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Just legalize it, tax it, and sell it in liquor stores. All of it.
There will be a brief Darwinian moment, and then you don't worry about it anymore.
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Well, if it is a murderer suspect, it might give him less time to get a weapon to shoot you.
Surveillance, eventually they will leave. Arrest them elsewhere.
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Surveillance, eventually they will leave. Arrest them elsewhere.
Maybe so...
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The problem I have is law enforcement (and judges) have shown they are unable to use no-knock warrants responsibly. For that reason, that tool should be taken away.
I think if any exception is allowed, the exception will become the rule because SWAT teams have convinced themselves that they are necessary for their safety and judges (on average) don't seem to question search warrants enough.
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Some thoughts in no particular order.
I don't care if someone flushes drugs. If the cops can't prove their case because a stash got flushed they can bust the guy again some other time.
I don't have any insight into whether a no-knock was reasonable in this case but an apparently innocent person was killed, which sucks no matter what.
Assuming the cops hit the right house, then while reinforcing your door might help, it is probably even more effective to not nap on the couch of the kind of guy who is likely to get wrapped up in a murder beef.
FWIW, I didn't hear "search warrant police" I heard "police search warrant".
While we often like to casually throw around the suggestion to arrest dangerous people in public spaces as an obviously safer option than serving the arrest warrant in their home, when a public arrest goes bad and you end up with a gunfight in a crowded street then we chastise them for not holding off and arresting the perp at home. An arrest of a potentially violent person can go bad wherever it happens. Also, if this is a search warrant, then they probably had to serve it at the house.
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Another problem is that... no matter the quality of character of the person who gets shot, there are people who instantly begin to recommend them for sainthood.
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Some thoughts in no particular order.
I don't care if someone flushes drugs. If the cops can't prove their case because a stash got flushed they can bust the guy again some other time.
I don't have any insight into whether a no-knock was reasonable in this case but an apparently innocent person was killed, which sucks no matter what.
Assuming the cops hit the right house, then while reinforcing your door might help, it is probably even more effective to not nap on the couch of the kind of guy who is likely to get wrapped up in a murder beef.
FWIW, I didn't hear "search warrant police" I heard "police search warrant".
While we often like to casually throw around the suggestion to arrest dangerous people in public spaces as an obviously safer option than serving the arrest warrant in their home, when a public arrest goes bad and you end up with a gunfight in a crowded street then we chastise them for not holding off and arresting the perp at home. An arrest of a potentially violent person can go bad wherever it happens. Also, if this is a search warrant, then they probably had to serve it at the house.
Agree with the bolded. Same advice from my Mother about not hanging around with wrong people, bad things can happen around them and you may not want to be too close.
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Agree with the bolded. Same advice from my Mother about not hanging around with wrong people, bad things can happen around them and you may not want to be too close.
I agree with that as well, but there is still the all too common, "oops, wrong address" scenario.
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I have a problem with LEOs entering a private home before they present the actual warrant.
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Everytime I read about this kinda thing, or how it would endanger cops to do things differently I come back to the clear "Us vs. Them" mentality US law enforcement has cultivated.
I'm running out of reasons not to take them at their word.
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While I don’t want To have Police Officers not going home after their shifts. I often hear the excuse and yes I will call it an excuse that Police Officers want to go home at night. Well we all do, and they chose a job that can have a higher risk. Their job is supposedly to protect the public.
Either do that or get another job. Too much of things like no knock or whisper warrants and other tactics are excused by that attitude. Police should endeavor to be more like the unofficial Coast Guard motto, they have to go out they don’t have to come back.
Of course when a suspect is legitimately resisting or fighting we shouldn’t second guess them so much in the heat of the moment, but they should avoid creating those moments by using no knock and other such tactics.
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I have a problem with LEOs entering a private home before they present the actual warrant.
Mmhmm
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I have a problem with LEOs entering a private home before they present the actual warrant.
I agree.
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Frankly, in my ignorant opinion, it seems like looking for a murder suspect is one of the few legitimate uses for no knock warrants.
But that would be an arrest warrant, not a search warrant.
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I have a problem with LEOs entering a private home before they present the actual warrant.
Agreed.
In my opinion, forced entry into a home by any party is moral (and often legal) grounds for immediate use of lethal force. I believe there are safer ways to execute a search warrant for all involved.
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This is the problem. These no knocks are for drugs, and keeping them from being flushed down the toilet, but have expanded to too many other things. I'm happy for my taxes to go to cops surrounding a house for an hour or a day or a week to keep a murder suspect contained until the situation is resolved. As for flushing drugs, the cost of bad no knocks is not worth it.
The drug disposal flush is utter bullshit in this era- there is no way in hell someone is going to jail for an amount of drugs they could flush down the head. It's an excuse, and a damned poor one.
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The drug disposal flush is utter bullshit in this era- there is no way in hell someone is going to jail for an amount of drugs they could flush down the head. It's an excuse, and a damned poor one.
Absolutely.
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If flushing drugs was an actual concern, the War On Drugs could easily be won merely by the police knocking on the door of every drug dealer. It might tax the municipal water system, but the drugs would soon be gone.
Of course, we Libertarians think legalizing those same drugs would solve the problem without so many police, but that's for another thread.
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When I was a kid back in the '60s, a TV news crew accompanied police who were serving a warrant. They "knocked and announced" and within seconds were pounding on the door with a sledge hammer. (No battering rams back then.) They pounded and pounded, and then a small window in the door opened and the occupant asked who was pounding on his door.
"POLICE! WARRANT! OPEN UP NOW!
The resident demanded to see the warrant. There was quite a bit of back & forth between the cops and the occupant, but he DID NOT open the door until the cops produced the warrant - and he made them hold it up so he could read it. :rofl:
Several occupants were in the house, much anger by the cops at the guy for refusing to open the door until he could read the warrant, and even MORE anger because the door was HEAVILY reinforced inside - they even had a bar across it like the gate in an old time fort or castle. Why? "We have a lot of crime here and you cops don't come when we call for help."
No drugs were found, no arrests made.
This was decades ago and perhaps my childhood memory of the incident isn't perfect, but it still makes me think - why wouldn't a REAL drug dealer today fortify his own drug den to delay forced entry?
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Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy. Especially the ones the police actually catch.
It wouldn't take very much at all to fortify windows and build a two door entryway with a fortified inside door and IED anti personnel charges between the doors. That would protect against SWAT teams and rival criminals. That no one apparently does is a testament to criminal's lack of creativity.
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Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy. Especially the ones the police actually catch.
The semi smart ones go into politics
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Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy. Especially the ones the police actually catch.
It wouldn't take very much at all to fortify windows and build a two door entryway with a fortified inside door and IED anti personnel charges between the doors. That would protect against SWAT teams and rival criminals. That no one apparently does is a testament to criminal's lack of creativity.
I think their solution is just to relocate often. If they fortify a house, the cops will just surround it and bring in the armored vehicle. Better to just move around. Killing cops in a botched forced entry doesn't do them any good.
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...it is probably even more effective to not nap on the couch of the kind of guy who is likely to get wrapped up in a murder beef.
It looks like warrants were issued for three apartments in the same building.
One belonging to the mother of Mekhi Speed, a suspect in a January murder. Mekhi Speed was a cousin of Amir Locke.
One belonging to another suspect.
One belonging to Amir Locke's brother, where Amir Locke was killed.
So as far as my statement above, I can't fault Locke for sleeping on his brother's couch and getting caught up in a raid relating to his cousin.
Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy. Especially the ones the police actually catch.
Very much so. Any honest cop will tell you that they only catch the stupid ones.
I think their solution is just to relocate often. If they fortify a house, the cops will just surround it and bring in the armored vehicle. Better to just move around. Killing cops in a botched forced entry doesn't do them any good.
Excellent points. Also, being caught isn't game over for most criminals.
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State of Minnesota recently has a high percentage of sending to cops to prison, I can see the officer who shot him going to prison with the other recent 5. Chauvin, Potter, et. al.
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State of Minnesota recently has a high percentage of sending to cops to prison, I can see the officer who shot him going to prison with the other recent 5. Chauvin, Potter, et. al.
No way. The forced entry was lawful and Locke reached for a gun. The case is a cut and dried lawful use of deadly force.
That doesn't make it right, though.
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No way. The forced entry was lawful and Locke reached for a gun. The case is a cut and dried lawful use of deadly force.
That doesn't make it right, though.
This is Minnesota we are talking about, the state with 3rd degree murder on the books.
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This is Minnesota we are talking about, the state with 3rd degree murder on the books.
Locke was a ccw guy, he had the gun in his hand but he was properly indexing his finger when shot.
I know not much about the case, but it seems like a FUBAR to me
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No charges to be filed in the death of Amir Locke
https://www.kimt.com/news/minnesota/minnesota-ag-no-charges-to-be-filed-in-death-of-amir-locke/article_f6178b9a-b5b9-11ec-b05a-0f3da4dff592.html
Protest scheduled for tonight
https://www.facebook.com/events/1499395690488468
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[popcorn] [popcorn] [popcorn]
Let it all burn.
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I'll bring marshmallows.
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Generally speaking criminals are dumb and lazy. Especially the ones the police actually catch.
t wouldn't take very much at all to fortify windows and build a two door entryway with a fortified inside door and IED anti personnel charges between the doors. That would protect against SWAT teams and rival criminals. That no one apparently does is a testament to criminal's lack of creativity.
Man trap. Booby trap. I believe that's illegal almost everywhere.
Also, I saw a cop show a couple of years ago where in CA, a crook was also charged with having an entryway designed to delay police entry. I always wondered about that. BS?
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I mean, yeah it's illegal, but if you are triggering an IED against either a SWAT team or a rival gang, I think the "legal" ship has sailed.
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Man trap. Booby trap. I believe that's illegal almost everywhere.
Also, I saw a cop show a couple of years ago where in CA, a crook was also charged with having an entryway designed to delay police entry. I always wondered about that. BS?
Unless the design included a mechanism likely to inflict serious bodily harm, it sounds like BS to me.
When I was a kid, a local TV station went along with the cops serving a warrant. It didn't go well - the cops couldn't break through the door. When a guy opened a small window in the door to talk to the cops, despite their demands he IMMEDIATELY open up, he flatly refused until they produced the warrant and held it up for him to read. THEN he opened up.
The front door was fortified like the ones you see in medieval castles in the movies. Makes me wonder why the real crooks don't do stuff like that all the time.
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I can't make it but could someone get me some 10.5 size Nikes?
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I am not outraged but probably should be. My Newport News house got several warrants for previous residents. If one had been criminal I slept on the couch four yards from the front door and there were probably two loaded guns on the coffee table. Even now living in BFE I consider invasion by police way more likely than any other. I know where lots of guns are but none are loaded within my reach because of that and because I am pretty good at complex tasks while completely asleep.
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My front door still has the marks from about 10-11 years ago when they tried to serve the front door... They went in through the side door tho... Which is now basically barred to "medieval" level. The front door probably didn't need it, but I added some angle and more 4" screws into the concrete block. I'm probably going to put some diamondplate over the outside, if just to hide the old sledgehammer marks sooner or later.
No idea why they didn't do the 4x8" window next to it... That has inside bars now.