Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => The Roundtable => Topic started by: Ben on May 12, 2023, 08:08:25 AM
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Video comparing maximum warp speeds of various Federation vessels.
https://youtu.be/iSyfpUyzQGU
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Well that was really interesting.
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I think I always assumed they were much faster than they actually are in universe. According to that, the original Enterprise would have taken 3 days at maximum warp just to reach Proxima Centauri. For their 5 year mission, the original Enterprise could only have traveled a maximum of 2,560 light years at maximum warp assuming no stops. That doesn't get you very far.
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I think I always assumed they were much faster than they actually are in universe. According to that, the original Enterprise would have taken 3 days at maximum warp just to reach Proxima Centauri. For their 5 year mission, the original Enterprise could only have traveled a maximum of 2,560 light years at maximum warp assuming no stops. That doesn't get you very far.
From what I gather, the video took the light speed/warp conversion speeds from the operating manuals of the various ships. It makes me curious if they used Hollywood people to make those, or if they did any significant consulting with mathematicians and physicists?
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From what I gather, the video took the light speed/warp conversion speeds from the operating manuals of the various ships. It makes me curious if they used Hollywood people to make those, or if they did any significant consulting with mathematicians and physicists?
I vote for Hollywood people. The "first" warp drive speeds were based on the cube of the numerical warp factor, and with a maximum "safe" speed of Warp 6, TOS's Enterprise would take about a week to reach the nearest star.
That isn't fast enough to support most of the story lines, so the writers just more or less ignored things. IIRC, TOS mentioned warp speeds up to "Warp 15" for weapons fire, and Warp 13 for ships. Later ST series used a different warp speed calculation with Warp 10 being infinite speed, but AFAIK the producers never really defined an actual formula. (Some fans have tried.)
But the bottom line is that IMHO, it's just fictional stuff coming entirely out of the minds of some Hollywood writer, without any consultation with actual theoretical physicists - even those having good imaginations like Alcubierre. (Other science fiction writers have done better.)
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But the bottom line is that IMHO, it's just fictional stuff coming entirely out of the minds of some Hollywood writer, without any consultation with actual theoretical physicists - even those having good imaginations like Alcubierre. (Other science fiction writers have done better.)
I always thought speed and distance in ST and other such shows (Yes, also like Babylon 5) was just bullshit, spun for the convennece of the story.
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I think I always assumed they were much faster than they actually are in universe. According to that, the original Enterprise would have taken 3 days at maximum warp just to reach Proxima Centauri. For their 5 year mission, the original Enterprise could only have traveled a maximum of 2,560 light years at maximum warp assuming no stops. That doesn't get you very far.
But could they make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs?
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But could they make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs?
Only if they have the Infinity Stones.
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JN01 for the win.
HankB said,
"The 'first' warp drive speeds were based on the cube of the numerical warp factor."
Ah, hank you. I was about to break out my skyintifical figuring machine to see how the hell they got what they got.
And,
"That isn't fast enough to support most of the story lines, so the writers just more or less ignored things. IIRC, TOS mentioned warp speeds up to 'Warp 15' for weapons fire, and Warp 13 for ships. Later ST series used a different warp speed calculation with Warp 10 being infinite speed, but AFAIK the producers never really defined an actual formula. (Some fans have tried.)
Ah, hank you again.
What's 186,000 miles per second in nautical knots?
If you cube nautical knots, do you get fathoms?
Do the Brits really use stone-furlong-fortnights to measure power?
Nap time.
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It would be nice if the Hollywood people would consult with the experts, but you have to remember that Warp Speed physicist are as rare as Klingon linguist.
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Actually, I never bothered to think about it except bigger is faster. That was rational enough for me.
I never let bizarre or outlandish S-F stuff bother me. As I've mentioned before, I was reading the funnies in the newspapers back when Dick Tracy had a 2-way radio on his wrist. Talk about outlandish! They'd never get vacuum tubes that tiny.
(https://armedpolitesociety.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsemiconductormuseum.com%2FPhotoGallery%2FPhotoGallery_CK722_Blue_files%2Fimage001.jpg&hash=db848786b9d819c88a494e8cd474c9f1f348cfd0)
Terry, 230RN
REF:
https://cafans.b-cdn.net/images/Category_45015/subcat_92277/PC019815.JPG
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I never let bizarre or outlandish S-F stuff bother me.
For the most part, the best way to view scifi. Re the B5 reference, it's actually easier to swallow the "science" of B5 and similar scifi than Star Trek Science, as the former are more ambiguous.
When you simply have "hyperspace" or "jump gates" or "star gates", it's easier to have "unrealistic", for wont of a better term, speeds. IIRC, warp speeds are creating gravitational warps in front of the ship. It seems Star Trek actually tried to explain it in real word scientific terms, which opens them up to more science critiquing than if they had simply used semi-magical "hyperspace".
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I already wrote a reply to this video elsewhere, if you'll forgive me the venial sin of cutting and pasting it here.
I've been geeking out over this sort of thing since 1993, when I bought the Star Trek: The Next Generation technical manual, an extension of the "Writer's Bible" created for the writers of that show to ensure they stayed consistent. They did indeed re-vamp the warp standard for TNG in 1987, creating a theoretical maximum of Warp 10. The explanation given was that power requirements increased exponentially as you went up the scale, making the achievement of Warp 10 something that would require all the energy in the known universe to accomplish. As noted in the video you linked, writers occasionally got around this by implementing a phenomenon other than standard Federation warp technology.
In my own books, I made a critical error very early on in that I wanted the ship to visit the Large Magellanic Cloud, some 169k light-years distant. For plotting purposes, I wanted the trip to take six weeks, so after crunching the numbers that means the Reckless Faith would have to go 1.5 million c, a velocity of which I'm sure the Federation would have been quite envious. What I hadn't considered is that when I moved the action back to our own galaxy proper, this meant the Faith could essentially be anywhere in our quadrant in mere days, which makes it difficult to build tension in certain situations. As a blatant act of retroactive continuity, I took the liberty of manufacturing another limiting factor: time dilation. Though one much smarter than I could use math called the Lorenz transformations to actually calculate time dilation at velocities like that, I used author's fiat and fudged it. However, I stayed true to the fact that the faster one goes, the more time passes elsewhere, and the limiting factor was that they had to strike a balance between speed and time. Go too fast, and the problem might be long over by the time they get there. From book 3 onward, they only go their top speed if it's a short distance, or time is not of the essence.
Even still, the Reckless Faith is supposed to be the exception. Most ships are limited to 800 - 900 c, but for plotting convenience I've also allowed 2500 and 22,500 c. As long as those numbers make sense within the context of the story and the ships to which they apply, I think I can get away with it. On the plus side, weird alien technologies notwithstanding, I've allowed myself a much larger playground within the galaxy than the Enterprise ever could hope to access.
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For the most part, the best way to view scifi. Re the B5 reference, it's actually easier to swallow the "science" of B5 and similar scifi than Star Trek Science, as the former are more ambiguous.
When you simply have "hyperspace" or "jump gates" or "star gates", it's easier to have "unrealistic", for wont of a better term, speeds.
"Hyperspace" and jumpgates give you an out on speed. Whatever hyperspace is, "stuff work different over there".
Speeds aren't the only thing. Various attempts at a map of B5 space, show it as a relatively local thing. Narn homeworld about 40 LY from Earth, Centauri Prime 70-ish, etc.
At one point, Londo Molari and someone else, probably Morden (the human fronting for the as yet hidden background bad guys) divvy up spheres of influence. A graphic goes up of a spiral galaxy. An S curve is drawn through it. Hundreds of billions of stars, "You get this side, we get that side.", without even beginning to contemplate the immensity of that, how it's a 3 dimensional dynamic structure, and how that's actually supposed to work with the existing factional layout.
Just all part of the "UN in space" story.
(Don't get me wrong. I love Babylon 5.)
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"It seems Star Trek actually tried to explain it in real word scientific terms, which opens them up to more science critiquing than if they had simply used semi-magical 'hyperspace'."
Reminds me of the time (maybe here) that I commented on am SF story where thimgs would pop out of the third dimension and slowly bleed back. As they reappeared, starting from microscopic sizes, people would be painlessly penetrated as they walked, causing mysterious diseases.
Ummm, OK, but having watched episodes of "I dream of Jeannie" and "Bewitched," I always thought things and people should make substantial bangs when they disappeared due to air snapping in to fill what was now a sudden vacuum. Just an odd thought, dismissed as I enjoyed the beauty of Barbara Eden and Elizabeth Montgomery yum yum.
Someone chimed in with the postulate that the air would fill the vacuum slowly since their de-location was not really instantaneous.
Mmmmmkay.
Repeating Ben's remark for emphasis,
"It seems Star Trek actually tried to explain it in real word scientific terms, which opens them up to more science critiquing than if they had simply used semi-magical 'hyperspace'."
So yeah, a true parallel. But damn, those girls were gorgeous yum yum.
Sp leave well enough alone.
Terry, 230RN
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Ummm, OK, but having watched episodes of "I dream of Jeannie" and "Bewitched," i always thought things and people should make a substantial bang when they disappeared due to air snapping in to fill what was now a sudden vacuum. Just an odd thought, dismissed as I enjoyed the beauty of Barbara Eden and Elizabeth Montgomery yum yum.
You weren't alone.
Now about Star Trek transporters. If you break down someone to their individual atoms and then reassemble them back together at another location is it really the same person?
As a side note the ST transporters were created for the show because they didn't have the budget to do shuttles scenes and it was a lot cheaper, and quicker, to have them stand in a spot, stop filming and then start filming again in another. Add a little swirling light effect in between and done. Trouble was as they found out it painted them in a corner, several actually, plot wise so they had to find a way to have it mess up all the time. Shuttles were added later in the show when budget allowed but the transporter effect was still way cheaper to do and besides they just couldn't just undo the transporter at that point.
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I already wrote a reply to this video elsewhere, if you'll forgive me the venial sin of cutting and pasting it here.
I've been geeking out over this sort of thing since 1993, when I bought the Star Trek: The Next Generation technical manual, an extension of the "Writer's Bible" created for the writers of that show to ensure they stayed consistent. They did indeed re-vamp the warp standard for TNG in 1987, creating a theoretical maximum of Warp 10.
There was one ST:TNG episode I remember. They'd (Enterprise, or just Picard, I don't recall) gotten somehow into their future. Gotten into some kind of a pickle, and Future Riker shows up to save the day, in a Federation ship with 3 warp nacelles, traveling at a reported Warp 15. Yeah, whatever the story requires.
The explanation given was that power requirements increased exponentially as you went up the scale, making the achievement of Warp 10 something that would require all the energy in the known universe to accomplish.
Ever read Stephen Baxter's Xeelee sequence? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeelee_Sequence) There's an artifact that shows up in there, the Xeelee Ring. We've detected it in the here and now, and know it as the Great Attractor. Extremely massive, millions of light years across, spun up to provide an escape portal for a Kardashev type IV civilization, (leaving the rest of us to our cold and dark fates.) Anyways, somebody did the numbers. That structure would use a measurable fraction of all the energy in the universe.
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I'm just telling you what I remember from the book. From Wikipedia:
For Star Trek: The Next Generation and the subsequent series, Star Trek artist Michael Okuda drew up a new warp scale and devised a formula based on the original one but with an important difference: In the half-open interval from 9 to 10, the exponent w increases toward infinity. Thus, in the Okuda scale, warp velocities approach warp 10 asymptotically. According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual there is no exact formula for this interval because the quoted velocities are based on a hand-drawn curve; what can be said is that at velocities greater than warp 9, the form of the warp function changes because of an increase in the exponent of the warp factor w. Due to the resultant increase in the derivative, even minor changes in the warp factor eventually correspond to a greater than exponential change in velocity. Warp factor 10 was set as an unattainable maximum (according to the new scale, reaching or exceeding warp 10 required an infinite amount of energy). This is described in Star Trek Technical Manuals as "Eugene's limit", in homage to creator/producer Gene Roddenberry.
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"according to the new scale, reaching or exceeding warp 10 required an infinite amount of energy"
And will turn you into a newt
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Threshold_(episode) (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Threshold_(episode))
Yeah, they had their Monty Pylon, she turned me into a newt but I got better, moment. Not one of ST's greatest episodes unless you're counting bad episodes
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Warp 10 is like the prime directive. An absolute, unbreakable rule made to be broken whenever it is convenient.
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But what about Excelsior?
What about trans warp drive?
Or did that just mean it was wearing a skirt?
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...
Now about Star Trek transporters. If you break down someone to their individual atoms and then reassemble them back together at another location is it really the same person?
...
Sheldon Cooper noted that in detail in one episode of TBBT.
All sort of like doing crossword puzzles. No tangible benefit, but fun.
I always just figured the Trek green dancing girl had a copper-based blood system.
And I questioned the adaptive benefit of large ears in such a genetically-advanced species as Klingons. Did they have to listen for predators?
'Tis a puzzlement.
Terry, 230RN
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I always just figured the Trek green dancing girl had a copper-based blood system.
Vulcans, and by extension Romulans, had copper based green blood and if you notice the actor's makeup often had a green tint to it.
And I questioned the adaptive benefit of large ears in such a genetically-advanced species as Klingons. Did they have to listen for predators?
Klingon big ears? Maybe you're thinking of the Ferengi
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When it comes to faster-than-light travel in science fiction, I kind of liked the "inertialess" drives of the E.E.Smith "Lensman" novels - if inertia is zero, a ship's speed is limited only by the power of its drives and the friction of the medium it's going through. With space being a pretty hard (but not absolute!) vacuum, typical speeds the ships could attain were around 90 parsecs an hour.
Intergalactic travel? Well, in between galaxies the vacuum is even better, so the ships go even faster.
This explained why ships in his universe were streamlined. They also had "hyperspatial tubes" for certain plot requirements. (BTW, there was a foreign "Lensman" cartoon produced that had only a tenuous relation to the original books.)
. . . Now about Star Trek transporters. If you break down someone to their individual atoms and then reassemble them back together at another location is it really the same person? . . .
What about the transporter accidents which split people up, so you got two of the same person? To me, it always seemed as if the transporters killed the person stepping into them, and built a duplicate at the destination. Which brings in all sorts of ethical/moral/religious questions. (Isn't a transported person really just an undead, healthy looking zombie?)
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What about the transporter accidents which split people up, so you got two of the same person? To me, it always seemed as if the transporters killed the person stepping into them, and built a duplicate at the destination. Which brings in all sorts of ethical/moral/religious questions. (Isn't a transported person really just an undead, healthy looking zombie?)
I always wondered what the big deal was when they "lost" somebody in transport, or even getting killed when they materialized. You've got the person's last body and memory saved, just print another copy.
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I always wondered what the big deal was when they "lost" somebody in transport, or even getting killed when they materialized. You've got the person's last body and memory saved, just print another copy.
Running short of Redshirts? Just press a button and Vola! You can have dozens, hundreds, even millions of expendable Redshirts n minutes!
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(https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/10/insp_expendability.jpg)
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<harangue>
Sorry, I'm no longer intimately familiar with Trek/Trek offshoot stuff. Spock had big ears, girl was green, Warp7 was faster than Warp4, WarpN was faster than c. That's about it, nowadays.
Kind of got bored with it ten+ years ago, rarely watch any of the re-runs or any "future/space/conflict/danger/OMG that rock is sentient" efforts any more. They started to sound committee written --and incidentally, too woke-flavored. (That's one of the reasons I started to dislike M*A*S*H. That "painting the prejudiced soldier with iodine" one tore it for me.)
Same thing with Western "sheepherders v cattle/railroad coming through/refined pure lady becomes floozy, then redeemed/ floozy becomes refined lady, then backslides/Indians villains/Indians upstanding" stuff.
I still like "McHale's Navy" despite the outrageously dangerous gun handling and the frequent plot device that "the engine is dead," even though most American PT boats each had three (3, count 'em) very powerful aircraft engines, any one of which could push the craft at 20 knots or better.
I guess you could calc'late that 20 knots was "Warp1" for a PT boat, and debate stuff from there. I think about 290 knots would be the world speedboat record, so call that "Warp 10," beyond which any faster was impossible. Until the committee decided faster was needed for the plot. "But Captain, we'll tear the ship apart!"
<Violent camera-shaking to indicate ship nearly being torn apart>
Terry the Yawner, 230RN
</harangue>
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I still like "McHale's Navy" despite the outrageously dangerous gun handling and the frequent plot device that "the engine is dead," even though most American PT boats each had three very powerful aircraft engines, any one of which could push the craft at 20 knots or better.
Like in Top Gun?
"The catapult is down"
All 4 of them??
Oh and to get nerdy here Spock was Vulcan/Human* not Klingon and his ears weren't really bigger just elf like pointed.
*Which always begged the question how could a human mother carry a baby with copper based blood?
and related to that issue B'Elanna Torres was Human/Klingon although I think Klingon blood was suppose to be similar to human blood despite being pink in ST:6 due to trying to keep the movie at a PG rating (see it's not real blood).
Edit: I don't recalled which type of blood she had was ever stated.
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Could you imagine a Human/Klingon woman with red hair? God help us is you threw in some Hispanic in there as well, Klingons are already short tempered as it is.
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Like in Top Gun?
"The catapult is down"
All 4 of them??
Oh and to get nerdy here Spock was Vulcan/Human* not Klingon and his ears weren't really bigger just elf like pointed.
*Which always begged the question how could a human mother carry a baby with copper based blood?
and related to that issue B'Elanna Torres was Human/Klingon although I think Klingon blood was suppose to be similar to human blood despite being pink in ST:6 due to trying to keep the movie at a PG rating (see it's not real blood).
Edit: I don't recalled which type of blood she had was ever stated.
Obviously, that "fact" about Spock's ears destroyed my whole position. Despite "larger" being a relative term and him having to cover them with a hat.
Oh, honestly...
And I wasn't 100% sure about the 20 knots, so that disqualifies my comments as well.
Oh, honestly...
I was glad to hear the exquisite details about blood type, color, and composition. I'm happy that someone's on top of data like that. Invaluable information!
Totally invaluable indeed.
LOL =D
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I think I always assumed they were much faster than they actually are in universe. According to that, the original Enterprise would have taken 3 days at maximum warp just to reach Proxima Centauri. For their 5 year mission, the original Enterprise could only have traveled a maximum of 2,560 light years at maximum warp assuming no stops. That doesn't get you very far.
Google says the Milky Way is 100,000 light years across. 2560 light years doesn't seem large compared to 100,000, but it still covers quite a few stars. Considering how big a deal the Voyager show made for being in the delta quadrant, that sounds about right.
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Google says the Milky Way is 100,000 light years across. 2560 light years doesn't seem large compared to 100,000, but it still covers quite a few stars.
That's true, but 2560 is if they went max warp nonstop. Of course they made a lot of stops and maybe didn't go maximum warp the whole time.
I guess my assumption is that life is rare. In the Star Trek universe it clearly isn't, so they can get into lots of trouble in a much smaller area than I would expect.
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Oh and to get nerdy here Spock was Vulcan/Human* not Klingon and his ears weren't really bigger just elf like pointed.
The ones with the big ears were the Ferengi. They originally showed up in STNG but when DS9 came out, there was Quark and his bar.
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That's true, but 2560 is if they went max warp nonstop. Of course they made a lot of stops and maybe didn't go maximum warp the whole time.
I guess my assumption is that life is rare. In the Star Trek universe it clearly isn't, so they can get into lots of trouble in a much smaller area volume than I would expect.
Science nerd fixup applied. ;)
The amazing thing is that apart from a few major exceptions, much of the life in the ST universe seems to be bipedal humanoids. Oh, sure, things like ears (Vulcan, Ferengi), noses (Tellarites) skin color (Orions) and antennae (Andorians) vary, but an awful lot of these aliens could actually be Earth-type humans with makeup applied. It's even more startling that they often can eat the same food and breathe the same air even with major changes in blood chemistry. (Iron based or copper based.)
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Science nerd fixup applied. ;)
The amazing thing is that apart from a few major exceptions, much of the life in the ST universe seems to be bipedal humanoids. Oh, sure, things like ears (Vulcan, Ferengi), noses (Tellarites) skin color (Orions) and antennae (Andorians) vary, but an awful lot of these aliens could actually be Earth-type humans with makeup applied. It's even more startling that they often can eat the same food and breathe the same air even with major changes in blood chemistry. (Iron based or copper based.)
There was that one ST:TNG episode where they found all the major races locally were from planets seeded by an older race that died out.
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Science nerd fixup applied. ;)
The amazing thing is that apart from a few major exceptions, much of the life in the ST universe seems to be bipedal humanoids. Oh, sure, things like ears (Vulcan, Ferengi), noses (Tellarites) skin color (Orions) and antennae (Andorians) vary, but an awful lot of these aliens could actually be Earth-type humans with makeup applied. It's even more startling that they often can eat the same food and breathe the same air even with major changes in blood chemistry. (Iron based or copper based.)
There was that one ST:TNG episode where they found all the major races locally were from planets seeded by an older race that died out.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Chase_(episode) (https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Chase_(episode))
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<harangue>
Sorry, I'm no longer intimately familiar with Trek/Trek offshoot stuff. Spock had big ears, girl was green, Warp7 was faster than Warp4, WarpN was faster than c. That's about it, nowadays.
Kind of got bored with it ten+ years ago, rarely watch any of the re-runs or any "future/space/conflict/danger/OMG that rock is sentient" efforts any more. They started to sound committee written --and incidentally, too woke-flavored. (That's one of the reasons I started to dislike M*A*S*H. That "painting the prejudiced soldier with iodine" one tore it for me.)
Same thing with Western "sheepherders v cattle/railroad coming through/refined pure lady becomes floozy, then redeemed/ floozy becomes refined lady, then backslides/Indians villains/Indians upstanding" stuff.
I still like "McHale's Navy" despite the outrageously dangerous gun handling and the frequent plot device that "the engine is dead," even though most American PT boats each had three (3, count 'em) very powerful aircraft engines, any one of which could push the craft at 20 knots or better.
I guess you could calc'late that 20 knots was "Warp1" for a PT boat, and debate stuff from there. I think about 290 knots would be the world speedboat record, so call that "Warp 10," beyond which any faster was impossible. Until the committee decided faster was needed for the plot. "But Captain, we'll tear the ship apart!"
<Violent camera-shaking to indicate ship nearly being torn apart>
Terry the Yawner, 230RN
</harangue>
I heard something about a writers' strike -- maybe you should apply. >:D
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Oh, honestly...
LOL =D
Nit picker ticked at having his own nit kicked. :rofl:
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There was that one ST:TNG episode where they found all the major races locally were from planets seeded by an older race that died out.
There was an original series episode - "Return to Tomorrow" - one of the 2 episode Diana Muldaur was in before she playe Dr. Pulaski on STNG.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708445/?ref_=nm_knf_eps_tt_1