Armed Polite Society
Main Forums => Politics => Topic started by: WLJ on January 25, 2024, 06:00:25 PM
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Apparently they intend for it to know the posted speed limit by GPS and limit you to no more than 10+ that.
I could see this being open to hacking by carjackers.
It would require any new car or truck made or sold in the state in 2027 or later to have special technology installed in the car called "speed governors." The device would make it physically impossible for vehicles to go 10 miles per hour over the posted speed limits.
"I don't think it's at all an overreach, and I don't think most people would view it as an overreach, we have speed limits, I think most people support speed limits because people know that speed kills," Wiener said.
Proposed CA bill would electronically restrict cars from going over speed limit
https://abc7.com/california-speed-limits-proposed-bill-governors/14358919/
Proposed State Law Would Require All New Cars to Have Speed Limiters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxPAro4rB1k
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My CA driving experience is mostly limited to LA and the bay area, where speed limits are more of an aspirational thing that you hope you might see one day before you die.
Over here in FL however, it's clear the vast majority of the driving public does NOT "support speed limits because people know that speed kills,". 10-15 over the speed limit is common when the interstate is moving, and you'll still routinely be passed.
P.S. Move over.
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My CA driving experience is mostly limited to LA and the bay area, where speed limits are more of an aspirational thing that you hope you might see one day before you die.
Over here in FL however, it's clear the vast majority of the driving public does NOT "support speed limits because people know that speed kills,". 10-15 over the speed limit is common when the interstate is moving, and you'll still routinely be passed.
P.S. Move over.
Lots of CA has places to go well over the 65-70mph speed limits, and lots of people do. Regardless of any of that though, I would wonder how they will make these governors work.
In every state that I have traveled and used GPS, whether onboard or Google nav, the programs have an option to view your speed and the speed limit on a particular road. I have many, many times seen that display go blank on the speed limit because I was on a road for which the nav didn't seem to know the speed limit. I have less often seen the actual road sign speed limit be higher or lower than what nav displayed, I assume from some local change in speed laws for a road.
So what happens when you hit a road for which there is no speed data? I certainly don't expect CA state government to have or create a better system than google nav. Do you get to drive as fast as you want? Will it limit you to 25mph?
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. . . I could see this being open to hacking by carjackers . . .
A lot of cars come from the factory with the engine controls set to limit the maximum speed of a vehicle; with many upper end German cars I've read it's 155, Japanese companies like Toyota won't comment. You can sometimes get an idea of what a new car's top speed is by the rating of the tires it's shipped with. (I don't know if the AMG modified Mercedes cars are top speed limited.) And of course there are PLENTY of cars that from the factory will exceed 155, all it takes is money.
Seeing as there are various ways people have defeated the factory limitations, I see a cottage industry springing up to defeat these proposed limiters.
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I'd like to know the legal requirement if the vehicle cannot obtain GPS location, or has no data for speed limit at a given location.
You'd likely see two competing grey market solutions. Either an antenna removal service, or a location override that jams real GPS data for your car and feeds it fake location data.
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And GPSs can be jammed and spoofed. What does the car do in that case?
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Many modern cars augment their speed limit detection with software in the forward facing cameras that actually recognizes speed limit signs. Each manufacturer would probably vary it a little bit, but I'd expect a common solution would be a mix of traffic sign camera, GPS, and location from info the car's cell phone antenna. It would probably take some reasonably spiffy coding to dig it out of the car's computers. Not to say it couldn't be done, but it's unlikely to be as easy as unplugging an antenna.
As far as speed limiters, almost all cars have one, and have had one for 26-30 years, at minimum. I can tell you for a fact that my Grandma's 94 Outback and my mom's 96 Saturn were governed at 105mph. My 96 Mustang GT was governed at and my 03 Cobra was governed at 159. I bounced off all of them at one point or another. When I cranked up the boost and chipped the Cobra we took the speed limiter out.
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The built in nav system in my 2015 Jeep Wrangler will display current speed limit and actual speed on the display.
I've got no problem with speed limiters as a concept. Let's limit it to 5 MPH over the posted limit. Nobody needs a vehicle capable of exceeding the posted speed limit except police and first responders (and military).
My BWM R1250RT is supposedly limited to 145 MPH for the US version. I can't say for sure since I've only had it up to 140. =D
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The built in nav system in my 2015 Jeep Wrangler will display current speed limit and actual speed on the display.
I've got no problem with speed limiters as a concept. Let's limit it to 5 MPH over the posted limit. Nobody needs a vehicle capable of exceeding the posted speed limit except police and first responders (and military).
My BWM R1250RT is supposedly limited to 145 MPH for the US version. I can't say for sure since I've only had it up to 140. =D
So you were on a road where the speed limit was 135?
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And what happens to somebody that is being "stalked"? What if that stalker is on a large motorcycle instead of a car or truck? The "pursued" won't be able to escape the "pursuee".
The "Civil War" was fought because one part of the country was "dictating" to a different part of the country HOW they should live their lives.
"Commiefornia" is doing the same thing now.
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RoadKingLarry:
"I've got no problem with speed limiters as a concept. Let's limit it to 5 MPH over the posted limit. Nobody needs a vehicle capable of exceeding the posted speed limit except police and first responders (and military)."
Like. Roffle.
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Car won't start. Code 000-FU. GPS signal not found... please look for clear view of sky before starting engine. *You are on floor -3 parking.
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When I was young, I had no idea what speed ratings on tires meant. I don't know how many times I was over 140mph on old bias ply tires.
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It's about time. I'll be the first one to apply for 25mph geofencing for my neighborhood.
GPS alone probably won't work, but there's a variety of positioning technologies that would. If this takes off, it will probably take the form of a radio signal like they use at home depot here to update the digital price tags.
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The part that annoys me is that they codified 10 mph over as acceptable. If it's a legal speed limit, and you're going to require a mechanism to enforce it on the car... Enforce it. Or change the speed limit.
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Control, control, control... why do you think I wanted to be elected?
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Control, control, control... why do you think I wanted to be elected?
Pretend you're a Democrat, and maybe the DNC election committee will help provide enough margin of fraud to put you in office.
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The part that annoys me is that they codified 10 mph over as acceptable. If it's a legal speed limit, and you're going to require a mechanism to enforce it on the car... Enforce it. Or change the speed limit.
I didn't know bureaucrats had to be rational. Just electable.
I haven't researched it in decades, but it useta be you could request an audit of speeds used on a stretch of road from the Highway Patrol which could (or maybe had to ) be used for posting speed limits. I always thought it was ridiculous because if you saw a police car in the area monitoring speeds, you'd (naturally) slow down. Which would affect the sample.
But it brought up the question of how speed limits are determined in the first place. I just assumed it was "some petty functionary with a clipboard" plucking a number from the air, and let it go at that. I'm sure some are determined by statute, but in general, is there someone actually empowered to set speed limit numbers? (Naturally, I'm thinking of the implications of the Bruen decision...)
Terry, 230RN
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State DOT's are the deciding fator usually, but they take "input" from the feds.
Excluding the whole "55mph to save gas" bruhahah, generally speaking the speed limit is set by the road's construction. Standardized road designs have emerged over the years, and new roads are built to meet the standard of the speed the planners want traffic to move, or in the cases where they can't build whatever road they want, the speed is set by the road design they can build.
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State DOT's are the deciding fator usually, but they take "input" from the feds.
Excluding the whole "55mph to save gas" bruhahah, generally speaking the speed limit is set by the road's construction. Standardized road designs have emerged over the years, and new roads are built to meet the standard of the speed the planners want traffic to move, or in the cases where they can't build whatever road they want, the speed is set by the road design they can build.
Or else it's Oregon, where all the speed limits are set for grandmas. =D
I swear, I get screwed on speed limits. Either I'm driving into Oregon, where it tops out at 55mph most everywhere I go (I get a short section of 70mph on the way to Home Despot), or else the 90% of my "daily driving" into the cities in Idaho is on one of the only 65mph sections of the interstate. I have like 1/4 mile where I can do 80mph.
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Or else it's Oregon, where all the speed limits are set for grandmas. =D
I swear, I get screwed on speed limits. Either I'm driving into Oregon, where it tops out at 55mph most everywhere I go (I get a short section of 70mph on the way to Home Despot), or else the 90% of my "daily driving" into the cities in Idaho is on one of the only 65mph sections of the interstate. I have like 1/4 mile where I can do 80mph.
[squints in FL]
Why would you not go 80 on the interstate?
>:D
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Perhaps the tech should be rolled out to all public sector employee vehicles first.
Seriously, I could see this being useful for school buses, public transit, DPW vehicles; essentially all non-emergency municipal, county, and state vehicles.
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The CA proposal is sort of a nothingburger that makes good headlines. There is no actually attempt to determine the local speed limit. It's just calling for 80mph governors. Like the ones certain company vehicles already have, that limit max speed. It's not a crazy idea and cars already have speed governors in the ECU's...the value depends on the car; Japanese cars seem to like 110mph. CA is just saying it should be lower, like 80. The highest speed limit in the state of CA is 70mph, so I guess they figure 80mph gives enough room for passing or whatever. It wouldn't do anything for speeding on lower - speed roads, but it would prevent the kind of extreme speeding you see in high speed chases or daredevil incidents. Or even mysterious events like that car that drove into the toll bridge at like 100+mph in NY... I always figured that was either a suicide or medical emergency.
One does wonder what happens if people buy a car in California and then go to Idaho or TX where they have 80 or 85mph speed limits. So it doesn't seem very well thought-out, like a lot of junk that comes out of CA.
They 80mph governor doesn't even seem that impactful because that type of highway speeding causes pretty spectacular crashes when they happen, but I think a lot of the road carnage is happening on urban and peri-urban arterials with lower speed limits, where people systematically speed.
There are systems out there that CAN use map data to limit speed by location, and the systems are already mandatory in EU countries, since 2022. They usually just display the current speed limit and beep at you if you speed, but they are advisory and can always be overridden IME. I can say it's kinda nice to have the speed limit always display in the dash along with your actual speed.
I know too much about speed limits because I'm on one of my road department's advisory committees. Most road departments consider the speed limit to be a property of the road, not something that you can optionally choose by policy. Speed limits are supposed to be set by the 85th percentile of speed that drivers naturally drive on that road, when there is no traffic. Under this system, the speed limit gives the driver some kind of real information about the road ahead. The road departments usually don't want to lower the speed limit for other concerns, like noise or not killing children (if they die it's just their fault). And besides, people ignore speed limit signs anyway, so there is a logic to this 85th percentile system. If you go around randomly lowering speed limits for other reasons, like because the neighborhood complained, the idea is drivers will catch onto this after seeing a bunch of 25mph roads that you can easily drive 40mph on, and they will start ignoring speed limits, and then when they go on a road that's actually a real "85th percentile" 25mph road, they will ignore the speed limit, assume they can get away with going 40, and crash.
Instead, if you want to lower the road speed because of noise, not killing children, etc., what you are supposed to do is redesign the road to a 25mph standard, and then people actually will naturally go 25mph according to the 85th percentile doctrine. You narrow the lanes to 9ft, put in curves, islands, or speed bumps, plant trees near the side of the road, in other words, design it appropriately, and wala, you have an actual 25mph road, which people who ignore the speed limit actually go 25mph on, and you also maintain the 85th percentile "speed limit is X and we mean it" doctrine. The problem is that re-designing roads is expensive. And road departments are very un-intelligent (I struggle to think of a discipline I respect less). The result is lots of roads have already been built going through residential or urban areas that probably are 30mph, but are built to 40 or 50mph standards, where people are tired of the noise, tired of speeders, and/or tired of sacrificing children on the altar of car culture, and they want to drop the speed limit but the road departments 1) won't let them without redesigning the road and 2) can't afford to redesign the road. If enough children die in one place, then sometimes they will do something. Sometimes. But then they fail to make those same design changes elsewhere, at least until enough blood has flowed.
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There are systems out there that CAN use map data to limit speed by location, and the systems are already mandatory in EU countries, since 2022. They usually just display the current speed limit and beep at you if you speed, but they are advisory and can always be overridden IME. I can say it's kinda nice to have the speed limit always display in the dash along with your actual speed.
My Aprilia motorcycle sort of does this, but only when I engage the navigation software. And it only works if I pair the bike to my smartphone, so it has GPS and data services. But on my map screen on the dash, it shows my current speed, my next turn (sort of like a motocross rally road book), and the local speed limit. It doesn't introduce itself between the throttle input and the engine though, I can exceed the speed limit all I want.
Rally road book:
(https://www.dirtrider.com/resizer/QVqhE9uHPTqHGFfHLshHxRXaM04=/1000x667/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/DSMJXNRKTFSKVTMLJGGQXQXX6I.jpg)
I can't find online pics of the Tuareg navigation screens, but it's nothing like your typical Google Maps interface with an overhead map and triangle avatar... it's turn by turn directions much like a road book.
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One does wonder what happens if people buy a car in California and then go to Idaho or TX where they have 80 or 85mph speed limits. So it doesn't seem very well thought-out, like a lot of junk that comes out of CA.
Just like vehicle pollution control devices, stupid gas can pour spouts, etc., California figures (and they have been right) that they have the economic clout to force it everywhere. Carmakers won't make a CA specific car, so the rest of us will get the lowest common denominator stuff and have to suck it up, or find workarounds (FTR, all of my gas cans are "water cans").
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Most states have default statutory speed limits for cities and highways, but these are over ridden if the road has speed limits posted. Sometimes an artificially low speed limit is posted for "revenue enhancement" purposes. One time when I was summoned for jury duty in traffic court I annoyed the prosecutor a bit during voir dire. He asked me what I thought about the speed limit on a stretch of road near my home and I replied that after driving it every day for over a decade, I thought it was deliberately set too low for just that reason - revenue enhancement, and after all, our city WAS on the national speed trap list.
The prosecutor then said "Sir, what if I told you that per the law, the posted limits are to be regarded as reasonable and proper?"
I replied, "Counselor, if the legislature felt a need to define something as reasonable and proper under the law, I'd say that's pretty darn convincing evidence that they know it's UNreasonable and IMproper in fact!"
He didn't like that answer - and liked it even less when the rest of the jury pool laughed out loud, and even the judge had to suppress a snicker.
He didn't argue, he just moved to the next juror. (I didn't get picked as a juror for that trial.)
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Rally road book:
(https://www.dirtrider.com/resizer/QVqhE9uHPTqHGFfHLshHxRXaM04=/1000x667/smart/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/octane/DSMJXNRKTFSKVTMLJGGQXQXX6I.jpg)
I haven't seen one of those in 40 years. Used to be called a "roll chart" . In concert with a stopwatch or chronograph wristwatch on the crossbar, they helped keep a rider on time during enduros.