Post by: wooderson on August 03, 2007, 01:55:51 PM
So, um, yeah. I don't really care at this point (gun-specific forums being a better source of info), I'm just curious why. E-mail me, PM here, or post it, whichever you're comfortable with.
Post by: The Rabbi on August 03, 2007, 02:43:52 PM
Now get back to your tilling, serf.
Post by: Phyphor on August 03, 2007, 03:12:49 PM
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 03, 2007, 03:39:49 PM
Were you wooderson on THR?
Post by: wooderson on August 03, 2007, 04:09:29 PM
I dunno if mistreated is the right word, I just found it bizarre to be able to view the site before lunch, make no posts, go see the Bourne Ultimatum and come back to a ban without any kind of warning or suggestion why.
If I don't hear from anyone, I'll try to PM Oleg tomorrow.
Post by: Ron on August 03, 2007, 05:29:31 PM
I'm a moderator friendly personality.
If everyone was like me it would be a boring world.
e-mail Oleg, he will find out what you did wrong.
Post by: Fly320s on August 03, 2007, 06:04:53 PM
I read your last post on THR, the one about kids at gun shows.
I didn't read anything that I would consider ban-worthy. I'm not a moderator at THR or anywhere else, but your post didn't raise my "uh-oh" flag.
Post by: Sindawe on August 03, 2007, 07:18:44 PM
Quote
Legal & Political is closed, until further notice. The rules of the other forums (General Discussion, etc) remain in effect. If the discussion is not directly gun related, it is off topic and will be dealt with accordingly. Do not take your non-gun related L&P topics to other forums on THR. They will be locked.
Why has this been done?
Simple. The High Road has not been very high-road, of late. Incivility, rudeness, crudeness, ranting, raving and various other forms of uncivilized behavior have become entirely too prevalent. The signal to noise ratio has shifted, and not in a good direction. This is unacceptable to the owner of the site, and the Moderators and Administrators concur. Therefore, the forum that seems to be at the heart of this activity, the Legal and Political forum, has been shut down. It will remain closed until we decide to reopen it. In the meantime, remember the core mission of this site, discussion of firearms and firearms issues, and continue posting in the other open forums.
Continues at: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3604100#post3604100
Why has this been done?
Simple. The High Road has not been very high-road, of late. Incivility, rudeness, crudeness, ranting, raving and various other forms of uncivilized behavior have become entirely too prevalent. The signal to noise ratio has shifted, and not in a good direction. This is unacceptable to the owner of the site, and the Moderators and Administrators concur. Therefore, the forum that seems to be at the heart of this activity, the Legal and Political forum, has been shut down. It will remain closed until we decide to reopen it. In the meantime, remember the core mission of this site, discussion of firearms and firearms issues, and continue posting in the other open forums.
Continues at: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3604100#post3604100
Note that for non-mods, Coronach notice looks like the ONLY posting available on L&P.
Post by: Ron on August 03, 2007, 08:02:30 PM
My natural inclination to go to L&P and the decline of that forum has probably been a big reason why.
I don't agree with all you folks but I much prefer discussing topics here than there.
My last foray into the Ron Paul wars over at THR was more than enough.
Post by: SomeKid on August 03, 2007, 08:47:01 PM
As an aside, did pax lose her mod hat on THR? Her name wasn't bolded last time I checked. Are they related?
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 03, 2007, 08:54:56 PM
Coro noted one thing that always bugged me in L&P. Posters always whined about how their 1A was being trampled on the forum. Call it a pet peeve, but that stupidity always grated me.
Oh, so now you're saying they don't have a right to whine about their First Amendment rights? Fascist.
Post by: Oleg Volk on August 03, 2007, 09:20:58 PM
Post by: Manedwolf on August 03, 2007, 09:23:29 PM
Quote
Simple. The High Road has not been very high-road, of late. Incivility, rudeness, crudeness, ranting, raving and various other forms of uncivilized behavior have become entirely too prevalent.
Post by: bedlamite on August 03, 2007, 09:37:19 PM
Post by: Bogie on August 03, 2007, 10:33:54 PM
Post by: longeyes on August 03, 2007, 11:16:37 PM
I used to think that one day I'd go to THR and find it shuttered. That would be a sign of where the country had arrived. Little did I realize I had my scenario a little wrong... Live and learn.
Post by: Len Budney on August 04, 2007, 02:36:44 AM
--Len.
Post by: Firethorn on August 04, 2007, 03:44:50 AM
All the good topics seem to be here as of late, THR seems to be so ban happy lately it's stifling discussion.
Thread drift is to be expected, as are heated posts. THR, to me, has shifting from a 'clothing required' policy to a straight jacket. The mods themselves are causing more stifling of intelligent discussion than the so called 'trolls'*.
*There's a large difference between a 'troll' and a poster who occasionally makes a non-politically correct post or gets heated.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 04, 2007, 03:55:39 AM
I can't access anything on THR any more and my ban is, I'm told, permanent.
Try deleting cookies. That way, you should be able to read the forums, though you still can't post. If you use Internet Explorer, go to the Tools menu, and select Internet Options.
Post by: Bogie on August 04, 2007, 04:54:44 AM
Then again, the majority of the mods there are pretty cool. There are just a few who are of the "it's engraved in stone, so therefore it's engraved in stone" mindset.
Post by: Art Eatman on August 04, 2007, 04:58:47 AM
Homeschooling her kids, family stuff, shooting classes, and her own Cornered Cat website. Moderating can eat up a helluva lot of time.
Post by: ilbob on August 04, 2007, 05:12:06 AM
IMO, if they want to ban certain points of view, or discussions of certain issues, which seems to be the case to me, then they should just do so, and close any thread that wanders in that direction.
I must have missed the really offensive stuff, or it got deleted, because I haven't seen anything so offensive that mass bannings are needed. But, that is just my opinion and my opinion does not count.
Or maybe my level of tolerance for viewpoints I do not agree with is much higher than the owners is.
Post by: Len Budney on August 04, 2007, 05:18:10 AM
--Len.
Post by: InfidelSerf on August 04, 2007, 05:58:30 AM
Since the last election their has been a dramatic increase in "progressive" newbies.
It has made moderating rather frustrating and unfortunately caused several of the moderators to have
short fuses and little to no tolerance for incivility. As well as a diminished capacity for sarcastic humor.
That's what happens when rational thinking people like ourselves decide to go into their forums* and debate them civilly with logic and common sense.
* *edit* I'm refering to Dailykos,Demunderground, and the brady camp.
Post by: wooderson on August 04, 2007, 06:12:26 AM
A certain moderator decided that was beyond the pale and that ad hominem in my direction was OK, but I had best not tell someone (who agreed with her) that his argument was incoherent. That was the sole incident in which I interacted with a THR mod (that I recall), being asked to edit something.
There were other times I basically told the same mod on political threads that she simply didn't have an idea what she was talking about (no different from any other political thread), but I was never even asked to edit those.
Post by: wooderson on August 04, 2007, 06:14:42 AM
Quote
Since the last election their has been a dramatic increase in "progressive" newbies.
Truly, political topics are markedly easier to 'moderate' when everyone agrees and there are no differences in opinion. Of course, one might question why you even need political discussion in that case - but it is easier.
I would also add that the good thing about THR was that we pariahs of the gun community were able to express a viewpoint just as easily as the people ranting about Mexicans-under-the-bed and Leninists-under-the-coffee-table.
Post by: longeyes on August 04, 2007, 06:29:56 AM
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 04, 2007, 06:31:07 AM
Post by: nico on August 04, 2007, 06:33:38 AM
I haven't been banned yet, but then again, neither have I posted there in a while.
All the good topics seem to be here as of late, THR seems to be so ban happy lately it's stifling discussion.
I agree. THR just hasn't been very interesting lately, and the trolls and overzealous moderating are opposite extremes that seem to contribute to the decline. All the good topics seem to be here as of late, THR seems to be so ban happy lately it's stifling discussion.
I understand that it's Oleg's site to do with as he pleases, but if groups of people are being banned without any explanation for things they may have said a long time ago, that's absurd.
Post by: K Frame on August 04, 2007, 06:35:10 AM
Tell your comrade that he needs to learn how to use the search function.
Post by: Sindawe on August 04, 2007, 06:38:42 AM
Quote
A THR comrade tells me that all of my posts--that's close to 7200 at last count--have been expunged. Rewriting history, are we? One day you're a good Soviet citizen and the next you, well, never existed.
Either your friend is feeding you a line of dren, or is incapable of using the search function. I found your posts with little issue.
Opps, Mike beat me too it.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 04, 2007, 06:55:36 AM
Quote
Since the last election their has been a dramatic increase in "progressive" newbies.
Truly, political topics are markedly easier to 'moderate' when everyone agrees and there are no differences in opinion. Of course, one might question why you even need political discussion in that case - but it is easier.
Yes. But the point is that your standard bunch of conservative, Republican gun guys will find quite a bit to disagree on, anyway, especially with the standard compliment of Libertarians. Still, a lot of comments will get thrown out that everyone agrees with, on global warming, socialized medicine, etc. Add a bunch of "progressives," and suddenly every such comment becomes a center of controversy. All of which takes the forum far away from gun-related issues, and makes things very heated.
Does that mean lefties need not apply, or should not be allowed to comment on other political matters? I don't think so. It does mean that everyone needs to learn not to start a full-on debate on Intelligent Design or the Valerie Plame case, in a thread about gun laws in Denver. It probably means that such topics should not even be brought up. I'm still working on that concept, personally.
Post by: Tallpine on August 04, 2007, 07:00:48 AM
Quote
It does mean that everyone needs to learn not to start a full-on debate on Intelligent Design or the Valerie Plame case, in a thread about gun laws in Denver.
The gun laws in Denver are definitely an argument against Intelligent Design
(gosh, I hope humor doesn't get banned on APS too ...
)
Post by: ilbob on August 04, 2007, 07:04:27 AM
Maybe the answer is to just ban certain topics/posts.
1. Posts that portray LE in a negative way. Or for that matter in a positive way. Copness has nothing whatsoever to do with the RKBA, so just ban cop discussions entirely.
I know it is not quite this simple, but the cop haters think every cop is evil, and the apologists think they can do no wrong. There does not seem to be much of a middle ground, which is sort of surprising to me since cops are after all, just average human beings and one would think that no one would expect them to be anything but that. But there is some deep mythology in the American mind set that idealizes cops, way beyond what is realistic. Some just do not want to see that myth destroyed, others are so shocked that the myth turned out to be false that they go the other direction.
IMO, the real problem with police misconduct is the lack of any independent means by which such conduct can be investigated, and prosecuted if warranted. As long as police agencies are in charge of investigating themselves, there will be the feeling there can be no justice, and that feeling is at least partially on target.
2. Posts about political candidates.
The presidential candidate threads seem to be more about ideological purity than anything else. Some posters just cannot accept the idea that political candidates have warts, just like all of us do. As voters, we have to pick the candidates with the fewest warts. Some posters just do not understand that.
One would think that no one who believes in the RKBA would ever vote for any Democratic party candidate likely to win the nomination. But, that wart is overshadowed in their mind by some wart the Republican candidates might have.
3. Posts about the war in Iraq, and the WOT in general.
There is a group of people who just do not accept the idea that there are organized groups of thugs trying to harm America and Americans. You can't get past that mindset. Even after 9/11, they would rather believe that George Bush did it than that some Islamic extremists were responsible.
Post by: Len Budney on August 04, 2007, 07:55:08 AM
3. Posts about the war in Iraq, and the WOT in general.
There is a group of people who just do not accept the idea that there are organized groups of thugs trying to harm America and Americans. You can't get past that mindset...
Perhaps, but as any of us libertarian types can tell you, the fact that the Mafia is in Chicago doesn't justify bombing innocent Chicagoans back to the stone age. Bombing Chicago, not because of what the Mafia has done, but because of what you think it might do, is even worse. And finally, when the "cure" involves the elimination of habeas corpus, warrantless wiretaps, indefinite detention and torture of American citizens, the cure is much worse than the disease. That a risk exists is reason to arm oneself... to be vigilant... to do all sorts of things--but it's NOT a justification for giving up our civil rights.There is a group of people who just do not accept the idea that there are organized groups of thugs trying to harm America and Americans. You can't get past that mindset...
Which is not to mention the fact that our favorite terrorists, for example in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, basically get a free pass from us. We're not fighting terrorism; we're only fighting a handpicked few terrorists.
So it just might be an over-simplification, or dare I say, a straw man, to suggest that everyone who disagrees with Bush's "War on (Some) Terrorists" does so because he believes that the terrorists are just misunderstood fuzzy puppies.
--Len.
Post by: RadioFreeSeaLab on August 04, 2007, 07:58:15 AM
Post by: Oleg Volk on August 04, 2007, 08:36:52 AM
Post by: Firethorn on August 04, 2007, 08:48:35 AM
I can't access anything on THR any more and my ban is, I'm told, permanent.
Try deleting cookies. That way, you should be able to read the forums, though you still can't post. If you use Internet Explorer, go to the Tools menu, and select Internet Options.
That's one thing I hate about cookies. I'd like to be able to kill them individually easier than finding them under the hidden cookie folder. I happen to like having my preferences remembered for a dozen other sites.
Post by: longeyes on August 04, 2007, 08:49:55 AM
Quote
"A THR comrade tells me that all of my posts--that's close to 7200 at last count--have been expunged."
Tell your comrade that he needs to learn how to use the search function.
Tell your comrade that he needs to learn how to use the search function.
The posts aren't the issue; the BAN is the issue.
Post by: Firethorn on August 04, 2007, 08:55:28 AM
I got emailed inquiries, will review each case and email you the reasons behind each ban. That takes time, so please bear with me.
Oleg, I know that it's your forum, but I honestly think that we're seeing the death of the site as a useful place for a discussion.
Post by: ilbob on August 04, 2007, 08:59:50 AM
Oleg, I know that it's your forum, but I honestly think that we're seeing the death of the site as a useful place for a discussion.
Perhaps he does not want it to be a "useful place" as you would define it. Maybe he wants it to be "useful" as he defines it.It is after all his property.
If you don't like it, start your own. Call it www.bannedfromthehighroadandproudofit.com.
Post by: Len Budney on August 04, 2007, 09:14:30 AM
Oleg, I know that it's your forum, but I honestly think that we're seeing the death of the site as a useful place for a discussion.
Perhaps he does not want it to be a "useful place" as you would define it. Maybe he wants it to be "useful" as he defines it.It is after all his property.
If you don't like it, start your own. Call it www.bannedfromthehighroadandproudofit.com.
Fractionating the pro-RKBA community by preferred type of firearm, by position on the WoT, etc., only serves to make the problem worse.
On the other hand, there is a legitimate issue that THR is attempting to address: they want a division between responsible and irresponsible advocates of the 2A. The subset who advocate criminal acts, or demonstrate blood-lust, or show the kind of irresponsibility that that produces casualties, are purposely excluded from THR. That's its actual mission. And it's a mission I can certainly get behind! There are dangerous bubbas in the world, and I'd like to see them mend their ways--but at the very least, I'd like to make sure they aren't held up as representative of myself and my position.
But, respectfully, I submit that I and others in the mass ban are not of that sort. My best guess as to why I was banned is that I recently suggested, less than half tongue-in-cheek, that "sensible gun control" is a good idea if it keeps guns out of the hand of government agents. That could be construed as anti-LEO, but in fact is a straight-up Jeffersonian view: the 2A was created specifically to ensure that civilians out-gun the government. But neither that, nor anything else I can recall posting, represents personal attacks, or advocating criminal or dangerous acts. It puts me in disagreement with the militarist crowd, but along lines where I thought there was room for respectful disagreement.
In short, the bummer of it is that folks who should be allies are instead divided, and we are all weakened as a result.
--Len.
Post by: wooderson on August 04, 2007, 09:25:57 AM
Quote
That's one thing I hate about cookies. I'd like to be able to kill them individually easier than finding them under the hidden cookie folder. I happen to like having my preferences remembered for a dozen other sites.
In Safari 3 (maybe earlier versions), I can search for cookies for identifying information - URL, type, etc. - and delete them. Hope it's a feature Firefox (and five years down the road, IE) incorporate soon, if they already don't.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 04, 2007, 10:18:37 AM
Quote
"A THR comrade tells me that all of my posts--that's close to 7200 at last count--have been expunged."
Tell your comrade that he needs to learn how to use the search function.
Tell your comrade that he needs to learn how to use the search function.
The posts aren't the issue; the BAN is the issue.
Then why bring up the posts at all?
Post by: longeyes on August 04, 2007, 10:47:46 AM
Post by: ilbob on August 04, 2007, 11:03:22 AM
I brought up the psts because it seemed to me, if true, it was symbolic: Expunge all trace of the perpetrator. When you are banned out of the blue and not given a reason, you begin to wonder. I really have no idea why I was banned. Uncivil behavior? Mis-using the site? Sorry, that's really a wild stretch. But I don't intend to come before "the court" and make my case; I know what I do and what I think. Anyway, if THR is going to be ruled by Morality Police and turned into a PC hen house, then I'm better off elsewhere. That doesn't mean I don't feel angry, sad, and, yeah, insulted. I would not have spent seven years involved with THR and posted over 7,000 times if I didn't find the site worthwhile, so it's painful to find out that "family" isn't.
If you think THR is family, you should think again. No group of mostly anonymous internet posters is family.
The owner will no doubt email you with the reason you were banned, as he has promised. My guess is his reasoning will not make you feel any better about it.
Many posters expect to be able to say pretty much anything they want on an Internet forum and seem shocked to find out that many forums do not allow certain topics or views to be posted.
Post by: Brad Johnson on August 04, 2007, 11:12:44 AM
I hopped on THR and did a quick User search on your name. All your posts are still there.
Agreed that THR is getting a little off it's original self. I just had a debate with a couple of folks on a subject that, only a short time ago, wouldn't have been an issue at all. In the end the thread was locked because it was going nowhere, but it still goes to the swing in posters' attitudes.
Seems that, as THR has grown, we are seeing large groups forming up in three main camps - potential options / net-gain, Libertarians / strict constitutionalist, and foaming-at-the-mouth "gotta have it all now or die trying". Makes things iteresting, but I can only imagine what a headache it must be for the mods and Oleg. I sure wouldn't want the job though there seem to be some folks over there who relish the power of the Lock/Banish button.
I see it as being a victim of its own success. As the forum grew in popularity it naturally attracted more and more participants. The more folks there, the more diverse the opinions and positions became. Unfortunately, that has also resulted in things going from a harmonious, well-tuned chorus to a cacaphony of incoherent shouts. What to do about it? Don't know, and I certainly don't envy Oleg's position at the moment. Anything he does, even the most well-thought-out and net-positive step, is going to take a group of forum members and tick them off royally. I hate to see it happen, but I think it's inevitable.
Brad
Post by: longeyes on August 04, 2007, 11:15:43 AM
If you think I am waiting breathlessly for an explanation of my "crime" and my sentence, you are dead wrong, friend.
Alll I will say is this: Anyone who asserts that my presence on THR has been disruptive or counter-productive isn't worth my time.
PS My screenname has been deleted from the THR membership list. That doesn't bode well for my posts. But, hey, no matter.
Post by: Ron on August 04, 2007, 11:38:35 AM
We signed up at THR on the same day, hard to believe it was that long ago. (GoRon)
I do find it to be classless to ban one of the earliest members of the site without an explanation.
Sorry to be so blunt about it.
Maybe there was a long history of warnings or the like I'm not aware of, it just doesn't seem high road to lock em out when they weren't looking.
Post by: longeyes on August 04, 2007, 11:51:54 AM
There were no warnings, no explanations, just this marvelously Kafkaesque message greeting me:
"You have been banned for the following reason:
Staff Decision
Date the ban will be lifted: Never"
Now that's a classic example of termination. /insert smiley face/
We live in crazy times. Enjoy.
Post by: ilbob on August 04, 2007, 11:59:44 AM
Thanks, Ron.
There were no warnings, no explanations, just this marvelously Kafkaesque message greeting me:
"You have been banned for the following reason:
Staff Decision
Date the ban will be lifted: Never"
There were no warnings, no explanations, just this marvelously Kafkaesque message greeting me:
"You have been banned for the following reason:
Staff Decision
Date the ban will be lifted: Never"
Sounds like the sort of explanation you get from the TSA when they ban you for no discernible reason.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 04, 2007, 12:24:06 PM
I brought up the psts because it seemed to me, if true, it was symbolic:
I know why you brought them up. I just wonder why you introduce a subject, then complain when someone else comments on it. Was it because Mike Irwin deflated your silly caricature of THR? Ooh, they're rewriting history.
Post by: Len Budney on August 04, 2007, 12:35:29 PM
I know why you brought them up. I just wonder why you introduce a subject, then complain when someone else comments on it...
Methinks you're being a bit too rough: the guy was told that his posts were gone, by someone who didn't know what he was talking about, and he believed what he was told and got a bit excited about it. Once set straight, that issue was laid to rest, but he was still no happier at finding himself banned. It doesn't strike me at all that he was trying to caricature THR.--Len.
Post by: Bogie on August 04, 2007, 12:41:23 PM
Quote
I think THR is suffering from some sabotage.
I concur... The general message of the democratic party is NOT "support our candidates." Instead, for the past six years, we've been bombed with "vote for ANYONE but a democrat." And it's just so EASY to take an individualistic society, such as the general gun culture, and sway 'em _away_ from something. It's harder to sway 'em toward, but away? Heck, that's easy... We're contrary naturally.
Everyone who doesn't vote against Hillary is basically a vote for her.
If I was running one of the campaigns, or affiliated with the main body of their party, I'd get some true believer types, and set 'em up with broadband. Basically set 'em out there with no other agenda than to be *expletive deleted*it disturbers... Derail anything that looks useful (for instance, a discussion on how to get CCW passed is going on, and someone asks "Hey, after this gets passed, what should I carry?" And then you've got your 9mm vs. 45 discussion as the _good idea_ part of the thread dies. I'd also get folks out there using EVERY situation as a "blame the administration." Heck - they're even blaming Bush for that bridge crash...
Post by: K Frame on August 04, 2007, 12:47:53 PM
MY issue was to tell you that your friend was wrong about your posts.
Post by: Bogie on August 04, 2007, 12:49:30 PM
If I think you're a troll from democratic underground, I will get medieval on your ass.
Post by: Firethorn on August 04, 2007, 04:47:01 PM
Perhaps he does not want it to be a "useful place" as you would define it. Maybe he wants it to be "useful" as he defines it.
It is after all his property.
If you don't like it, start your own. Call it www.bannedfromthehighroadandproudofit.com.
It is after all his property.
If you don't like it, start your own. Call it www.bannedfromthehighroadandproudofit.com.
But I haven't been banned! (crosses fingers).
By the same token, I'm allowed to express my opinion. Over time, I've found fewer and fewer topics on THR where I feel the urge to post.
Post by: InfidelSerf on August 04, 2007, 05:27:35 PM
Quote
That's one thing I hate about cookies. I'd like to be able to kill them individually easier than finding them under the hidden cookie folder. I happen to like having my preferences remembered for a dozen other sites.
You can kill individual cookies in Firefox. It shows you a list and you can delete only those you choose. Unlike IE.
Post by: mountainclmbr on August 04, 2007, 05:57:24 PM
Post by: Firethorn on August 04, 2007, 06:02:46 PM
Quote
That's one thing I hate about cookies. I'd like to be able to kill them individually easier than finding them under the hidden cookie folder. I happen to like having my preferences remembered for a dozen other sites.
You can kill individual cookies in Firefox. It shows you a list and you can delete only those you choose. Unlike IE.
Yes, but oddly enough I normally end up wanting to kill cookies when I'm at work, at which I'm required to use IE.
Post by: cosine on August 04, 2007, 06:10:18 PM
Quote from: cosine
I wonder if THR is undergoing a bit of an identity crisis right now. I have read THR for almost two years, and back in my early THR days I noticed many differences in political views, but fewer differences in regard to the RKBA. Things seem to be a little different now. Over the last several months there seemed to have been an influx of newbies (their participation can be a good thing for the firearm culture) seemingly willing to undergo or support "reasonable restrictions" to the RKBA, such as background checks or no RKBA for released felons. I wonder if that is creating a bit of tension between some of the more longtime posters to whom such ideas are repulsive and some of the newer members who believe such things are beneficial. And then the mods get caught right in the middle, especially if tempers occasionally flair because of such differences.
And thus, the tensions over differences in RKBA views spill over into other L&Pee topics.
Post by: mountainclmbr on August 04, 2007, 06:25:44 PM
Post by: K Frame on August 04, 2007, 06:34:18 PM
That's up to you to do.
I'm not going to do your "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more" work for you, Mr. Beale.
I don't think any of the other mods will, either.
Post by: SomeKid on August 04, 2007, 06:39:39 PM
Quote
pax dropped out of moderating because she has a real life.
Smart woman. Then again, I am biased, having been home-schooled myself. Local government facilities are...shall we say...not meant for human children.
Post by: Ron on August 04, 2007, 06:49:39 PM
Quote
I just submitted a post requesting that the RULERS at THR cancel my account and posts. They seem to be skewing to the commie left. Cancel me here too if appropriate. I will never be a socialist/communist. I don't own the site, but I don't have to participate either! Nice knowing all of you! Bye.
Seems to be a rather overboard reaction. L&P was operating well outside its supposed narrow focus for a long time. I suspect they will keep it tightly focused on rights, particularly self defense/2nd amendment if it comes back.
The political arguing wasn't doing the furtherance of our cause much good, it was getting pretty divisive actually.
I for one never saw THR as being a very right wing place. It has a lot of right wingers as members but it was always open to all political leanings. That is one of the reasons I enjoyed it when I first found it, it wasn't necessarily an echo chamber of my own beliefs.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 04, 2007, 06:57:57 PM
Post by: Michigander on August 04, 2007, 07:53:30 PM
I remember The Round Table. That was a hoot! Loved it!
I remember when TRT was taken away and eventually this nice place here, Armed Polite Society, came into being. Greatly appreciated I might add!
I do recall, even after TRT at THR was removed, the conversations on the Legal & Political board were super. IIRC, even back then, the Moderators had a difficult time maintaining some sense of "high road" content. That is appreciated too.
My "however" is that it seems to me that there are a few Mods who's political views and personal bias' get in the way of objective moderating. I realize humans are humans and all, but I think perhaps there is a lack of oversight of the Mods by the Administrators (if that is how it is supposed to work). I mean who's watching the watchers?
That being said, the level of tolerance of offenders of the (quite) simple rules at THR was probably way to high, myself being an offender a few times. Now it would appear that it will be way too low and who knows how long any of us will last. I can hear the eggshells cracking underfoot now.
Oh well, THR is what it is and that is up to the Owner, the Admins and the Mods. I do not envy their roles in this.
I wish them objectivity and fairness in their administrating and moderating.
Post by: Antibubba on August 04, 2007, 09:40:48 PM
For more freewheeling, diverse, and respectful talks, I come here. This place is pointedly not THR; Oleg and the other mods understand that.
Post by: Oleg Volk on August 04, 2007, 09:42:29 PM
Quote
Over time, I've found fewer and fewer topics on THR where I feel the urge to post.
Same here. I find myself biting my tongue pretty often.
Usually, the content of the posts isn't the problem. Lack of civility or, for lack of a more polite term, acting like an ass towards others is the most common cause of a ban. Usually, bans are preceded by warnings.
You would be surprised at how much hand-wringing goes into every ban. I am always inclined to salvage the situations -- if possible. I do not relish offending people by telling them they can't use THR. APS was set up in part as a consolation for the mission-driven nature of THR.
Post by: Maser on August 04, 2007, 09:52:29 PM
Post by: wooderson on August 04, 2007, 10:14:01 PM
What bothers me is the complete lack of warning or explanation. If you want someone to reform their behavior, you tell them what they're doing to displease you, and if nothing else you give them a chance to defend themselves. Which isn't to make a silly First Amendment argument or anything, it's just the way people are expected to behave.
Upside of this is that I signed into TheFiringLine for the first time in months and I've already got a line on a shiny (used) H&K P7. Downside is that it doesn't appear to have a blade forum as useful as the one on THR.
Post by: Firethorn on August 05, 2007, 06:40:43 AM
Usually, the content of the posts isn't the problem. Lack of civility or, for lack of a more polite term, acting like an ass towards others is the most common cause of a ban. Usually, bans are preceded by warnings.
I hang out on a few other sites, where the tolerance levels of outright attacks are generally 100x of what they are here, much less over on THR.
Never the less, useful conversations(for the point of the board), still take place. Threads do get locked, but usually less frequently than on THR or APS. The biggest ban rate is stomping on the advertising trolls who register for an account to push some product. They get banned & their posts deleted.
Now, they do sometimes hand out two-week to month long bans. They also hand out 72 hour bans like candy. When a long-time user gets permabanned, everybody knows why. Everybody. The situation on THR lately seems too 'knives in the night' to me lately.
I too can be a radical hothead, though I try to avoid insulting people personally, or use bad language. The way I look at it, insulting people is just asking for them to close their ears, and bad language is just that. I have enough trouble with my spelling and grammar, mixing in gratuitous four letter words doesn't help.
Post by: ilbob on August 05, 2007, 07:05:02 AM
I was banned like a year ago from THR and to this day I still can't really figured out why. I conducted myself civilized and can only think of a small spat I got into with a member who used to troll my site and next thing I know is I get banned and the other person didn't. I'd really like my ban lifted or at least have an explanation of why I was banned. There's lots of good info there and I want to be able to learn all I can and ask questions.
If you ask Oleg maybe he will tell you why you were banned.
Post by: ilbob on August 05, 2007, 07:18:39 AM
I hang out on a few other sites, where the tolerance levels of outright attacks are generally 100x of what they are here, much less over on THR.
Never the less, useful conversations(for the point of the board), still take place. Threads do get locked, but usually less frequently than on THR or APS. The biggest ban rate is stomping on the advertising trolls who register for an account to push some product. They get banned & their posts deleted.
Now, they do sometimes hand out two-week to month long bans. They also hand out 72 hour bans like candy. When a long-time user gets permabanned, everybody knows why. Everybody. The situation on THR lately seems too 'knives in the night' to me lately.
I too can be a radical hothead, though I try to avoid insulting people personally, or use bad language. The way I look at it, insulting people is just asking for them to close their ears, and bad language is just that. I have enough trouble with my spelling and grammar, mixing in gratuitous four letter words doesn't help.
It is a lot easier to be an ornery cuss in an Internet forum than in real life. My guess is that most forum users understand that and are not anywhere near as offended as they would be if someone said it to them face to face.
There is also the cop bashing issue. Its clear that one of the bugaboos of the forum owner is the so called cop bashing. Best thing to do is just ban topics about cops entirely. There is no real need for them in the first place. I suspect the forum owner somehow thinks that being nice to cops will somehow help the cause of RTKBA. IMO, this is not so. As best I can tell, despite the overwhelming support for police that has been shown by those of us who support the RTKBA, very little of it has been reflected in police support for us. We have always had a fair amount of support from cops in general, but that is no real surprise. Cops are just fellow citizens that tend to think the way their fellow citizens do, so it is unsurprising that some would support us, and others would oppose us. Personally, I think it is a huge mistake to attach the RTKBA to any discussion of police. The RTKBA does not, nor has it ever had anything to do with police. They are government employees who are given powers by government, among them are the power to carry firearms. But that situation has absolutely nothing to do with the RTKBA that all citizens inherently have, and we ought not to mix the two together.
Post by: Perd Hapley on August 05, 2007, 08:48:56 AM
Wierd, huh?
Post by: Oleg Volk on August 05, 2007, 12:32:14 PM
You may like to know that cops on staff as more critical of their feral colleagues than you are. They would prefer not to be blamed for something done by rogues elsewhere, same you you would rather not be blamed for actions of gangbangers.
Maser
We discussed your ban in detail a the time. Look up my old emails.
Post by: Ron on August 05, 2007, 03:36:52 PM
With the huge numbers of LEO's in this country it is only to be expected that they will have their share of bad guys and idiots.
Pointing them out and casting aspersions on everybody in law enforcement is just ridiculous.
Usually it tells me the person posting has issues with following rules, authority or some such thing.
Post by: MechAg94 on August 05, 2007, 04:09:12 PM
The problems I see are:
1. Lack of reading comprehension. Some posters miss facts of the case or seemingly make them up. A few posters get a certain scenario in their heads and argue based on that fiction. It throws wrenches into otherwise simple disucussions.
2. Ranting. Some posters just look for issues to get charged up about and rant. Rants not always being related to the case in question.
3. Baiting. Some posters don't rant or such very much, but they love to throw out rant bait to get under the skin of others. Usually they sound reasonable on the surface, but it can be pretty obvious that they are not interested in a serious discussion just seeing how much havoc they can cause. I bet they are not normally the ones getting banned.
4. Arguing over unrelated points. Related to #1. I have seen multipage arguments where each side basically agreed, but was saying it differently enough they were arguing about nothing.
5. Poor written communication skills. I really think a lot of people think what they said is not bad, but say it so poorly that it is taken as something completely different. I have caught myself doing this before. Had to reword half the post. Also, there are a lot of people who should be forced to take persuasive writing classes.
6. Being able to separate the argument from the poster. One thing I try to make sure I do is avoid attacking the poster, but rather attacking the argument. I'm sure I have not done it always, but I have edited posts on this and other sites quite often to take out stuff I regret saying as soon as I posted it. I have also written long posts that I have just canceled/deleted feeling it was better to say nothing.
I guess there could be more or less depending on how detailed you get. I am sure I have been guilty of one or the other in the past.
One other thing: I don't want anyone who got banned to take it personally, but I have seen mods warn people before about what was obviously a bad post or series of posts; then the poster argues about it like they were as innocent as a babe. It is the same reason I don't take one-sided news articles at face value. Some people just refuse to admit they were wrong.
Post by: Maser on August 05, 2007, 05:35:50 PM
Maser
We discussed your ban in detail a the time. Look up my old emails.
Exactly, but you always said you would "look into it" but yet never gotten back to me about it. And I have yet to get a REAL explanation as to why I was banned. I mean I act the exact same way at TFL as I did at THR, so what's up with that? Aren't both sites owned by the same staff?
Post by: longeyes on August 05, 2007, 05:52:44 PM
Not to belabor this puppy but...
It was my L&P posts that were deleted by the nomenklatura at THR. That comprises about 90 per cent of the 7200 total posts I submitted over seven years.
My name/account has been expunged from the member list.
I'll say it again: it smacks of revisionist history and, worse, a purge.
Post by: Ron on August 05, 2007, 06:01:43 PM
Quote
It was my L&P posts that were deleted by the nomenklatura at THR. That comprises about 90 per cent of the 7200 total posts I submitted over seven years.
All the L&P posts are gone, not just yours. I searched my own name and all my L&P posts are missing.
Post by: Marnoot on August 05, 2007, 06:02:00 PM
To whom it may concern:
Not to belabor this puppy but...
It was my L&P posts that were deleted by the nomenklatura at THR. That comprises about 90 per cent of the 7200 total posts I submitted over seven years.
My name/account has been expunged from the member list.
I'll say it again: it smacks of revisionist history and, worse, a purge.
Not to belabor this puppy but...
It was my L&P posts that were deleted by the nomenklatura at THR. That comprises about 90 per cent of the 7200 total posts I submitted over seven years.
My name/account has been expunged from the member list.
I'll say it again: it smacks of revisionist history and, worse, a purge.
Nobody's posts made in L&P are available. It has nothing to do with revisionist history or some secret Stalinist purge. It has to do with them taking that sub-forum offline while they decide how to re-tool it.
Post by: Ron on August 05, 2007, 06:03:00 PM
Post by: Marnoot on August 05, 2007, 06:05:06 PM
JINX!!
Post by: longeyes on August 05, 2007, 06:10:04 PM
"It has nothing to do with revisionist history or some secret Stalinist purge. It has to do with them taking that sub-forum offline while they decide how to re-tool it."
Sez you. Nice to know that I and others are part of the "re-tooling." No doubt the new and improved THR membership will know better how to avoid the billyclub.
Post by: Marnoot on August 05, 2007, 06:32:39 PM
Nice to know that I and others are part of the "re-tooling." No doubt the new and improved THR membership will know better how to avoid the billyclub.
"Welcome to The High Road, an online discussion board dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership."
I can't comment on your posts or why you were billy-clubbed as I've fervently avoided L&P for quite some time, and haven't read any of your posts. But can you honestly say that the squawking, bickering, and childishness that L&P became was fulfilling the stated purpose of THR as quoted above?
Perhaps you were banned unfairly; my only point is that L&P sorely needed some re-tooling.
Post by: K Frame on August 05, 2007, 06:33:26 PM
Lots of information, postulation, supposition, and quite a few other "ions."
I'd suggest that if anyone has particular questions about their own personal situation/status, PM Oleg.
Thank you for keeping it above board and civil.
Oh, in case anyone is curious.
As Oleg said, anyone who has been banned from THR is welcome to post here even though Oleg owns both sites. It's not a case of "if you're kicked from one, all are forbidden to you." I'm proof positive of that, as I was banned from THR in... well, a couple of years ago, I don't remember exactly when.
But now I'm a moderator here.
Although I think that was more semi-punishment for my having the temerity to make some suggestions to Oleg.