Post by: wmenorr67 on October 11, 2007, 08:47:38 PM
Hope the hell he vetos it.
Post by: Standing Wolf on October 11, 2007, 11:24:56 PM
The first step toward socialist dependence upon government is the big one; after that, it's just more of the same. It takes a RINO to make it happen efficiently.
Post by: HankB on October 12, 2007, 03:42:51 AM
Even my usual complement of expletives is inadequate to describe how I feel about stuff like this . . .
Post by: Sindawe on October 12, 2007, 03:46:26 AM
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Even my usual complement of expletives is inadequate to describe how I feel about stuff like this . . .
My feelings are the same on this topic, and most others regarding the [Art's Grandma] here illegally.
I'd not be suprised if he signs the freaking bill into law.
Post by: Manedwolf on October 12, 2007, 04:08:34 AM
Post by: Len Budney on October 12, 2007, 04:59:09 AM
--Len.
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 12, 2007, 07:37:15 AM
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The glaring problem here is that the government is paying people's college tuition. How ridiculous, not to mention immoral.
Tell me where to send my degrees back to, Len. Since they were taken forcefully from you by way of the fedgov while I was pulling an immoral 20+ year stint as a professional military member.
Jeebus. Do you even read what you type, or is it always the same "Gov't is immoral and a pack of thieves" drivel? Y'know, until the secession of BudneyLand is complete, and the place is up an running with its Libertarian/Anarchist non-government, while the roads are passable without a President Budney Memorial Tollway running through the 500 acres (I'm being optimistic, of course) of that country, I'm gonna go with what's working pretty darned well among the nations of the world. Or maybe I'll just detour around the whole arrogant thing and drive on what Ike built.
Lessee, government-backed student loans vs. a nation of idiots not having the means to better themselves. I paid mine back, and it's a fair guess that the majority of other people do.
Post by: Len Budney on October 12, 2007, 07:50:28 AM
Tell me where to send my degrees back to, Len. Since they were taken forcefully from you by way of the fedgov while I was pulling an immoral 20+ year stint as a professional military member.
I think you're going out of your way to be offended. The illegal aliens in question are not serving in defense of the country, and neither are the others whose tuition is being paid by the state of California. I wasn't thinking of the GI bill at all when I posted, and frankly the GI bill is so low on my list of concerns that by the time it shows up on the radar, I think we can work out a way to accommodate veterans to everyone's satisfaction.
But turn it around; because you benefited from the GI bill, you apparently find it impossible to question the morality of the handout which, in this case, is going to illegal aliens. I would encourage you not to fall pray to a "foolish consistency" here and defend handouts.
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Lessee, government-backed student loans vs. a nation of idiots not having the means to better themselves.
False dichotomy.
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I paid mine back, and it's a fair guess that the majority of other people do.
I also paid mine back. I said it's immoral for government to take the money or to redistribute it. I didn't say it's necessarily immoral to accept it. As Walter Block argues eloquently, "the state... is a thief, and should forthwith be relieved of its ill gotten gains."
A while ago I made the same point with a different analogy, but I didn't think you got it at the time. There's nothing immoral about Al Capone's barber accepting payment. Al Capone is a criminal; his barber is not. Many of the people on whose behalf you are offended--including you--are in the same position as Al Capone's barber, and I am not and have not called you criminals.
--Len.
Post by: Paddy on October 12, 2007, 07:53:51 AM
http://chronicle.com/blogs/election/762/obama-urges-schwarzenegger-to-let-illegal-immigrants-get-aid
However, Gov. Arnold did sign a bunch of bills to benefit California's military people-that's a good thing:
http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/424116.html
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on October 12, 2007, 07:55:28 AM
There's not much grey area there, unless, of course, you are deliberately trying to be vague in order to wind people up.
Now we all know that wouldn't be it, right?
Post by: Len Budney on October 12, 2007, 07:58:13 AM
"I'm think you're going out of your way to be offended?" You flat out said "The glaring problem here is that the government is paying people's college tuition. How ridiculous, not to mention immoral."
I updated my post; perhaps that will help you. Government is acting immorally. Those who accept the money are, in general, not. Like John Gotti's tailor, they're rendering a service and accepting payment. It isn't their fault that their customer is a criminal.
--Len.
Post by: Gewehr98 on October 12, 2007, 08:08:27 AM
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There's not much grey area there, unless, of course, you are deliberately trying to be vague in order to wind people up.
Now we all know that wouldn't be it, right?
Now we all know that wouldn't be it, right?
LOL, Ex-Ma Hole. We call it "stirring the pot" where I come from. I sometimes think that's the sole reason a certain somebody's here, as basically an instigator, arguing solely for the sake of argument and throwing in the traditional "Gov't is evil, mmm'kay?" bit. If that username ever posts something nice that isn't anti-establishment, I'll drop dead of a heart attack, I swear.
Back to the thread, the astute will note the furious back-pedaling. Funny that NOW Len focuses his indignation on Los Illegales, when earlier in the thread it was still about government paying people's tuitions.
Never mind the fact that I haven't even begun to touch my GI Bill benefits yet. My tuition was paid as a condition of my employment, with a service commitment exchange rate in there for good measure.
Post by: K Frame on October 12, 2007, 08:12:16 AM
Post by: Len Budney on October 12, 2007, 08:14:14 AM
the astute will note the furious back-pedaling. Funny that NOW Len focuses his indignation on Los Illegales
No, my indignation is on the handouts themselves. I note only that because you perceive yourself to have benefited from handouts, you defend them even when they're going to illegals, which is a thing that outrages you. You find yourself torn and unable to condemn the root of the problem. That's something called "moral hazard," and you have taken great offense in the past when I pointed out that moral hazard is a problem. The expression I originally used was, "their bread is buttered on the wrong side."
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Never mind the fact that I haven't even begun to touch my GI Bill benefits yet. My tuition was paid as a condition of my employment, with a service commitment exchange rate in there for good measure.
Regardless of the specific statute, I have not called you a thief, and it would be dishonest of you to say otherwise. The ones giving you the money are thieves. I would like to see them shut down, because they're thieves. That may adversely affect people who hope to receive their share of booty from the same thieves--but I hope that moral hazard doesn't induce them to defend theft for the sake of personal advantage.
--Len.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on October 12, 2007, 08:28:42 AM
Wow.
Fascinating theories.
Post by: Len Budney on October 12, 2007, 08:33:33 AM
So he's knowingly accepting illegal and immoral money, yet that doesn't make him illegal and immoral?
Try and use that reasoning to explain why Al Capone's barber belongs in jail. Fail miserably. Scratch head. Then retract your desperate attempt to turn what wasn't a personal attack into one.
--Len.
Post by: Ex-MA Hole on October 12, 2007, 08:35:43 AM
Please?
Post by: doczinn on October 12, 2007, 11:08:46 AM
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Can I get some of what you're on?
Please?
Followed by the sig line:Please?
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Polite: "of, relating to, or having the characteristics of advanced culture" Merriam-Webster, online. The word is at the top of the page for a reason.
If your post doesn't reflect it, do us all a favor and don't hit the post button.
Thanks,
Mark
Hmmm....
If your post doesn't reflect it, do us all a favor and don't hit the post button.
Thanks,
Mark
Post by: Perd Hapley on October 12, 2007, 01:53:39 PM
Post by: roo_ster on October 12, 2007, 06:06:09 PM
Like Marx, his writings indicate that he is intoxicated with theory and averse to reality.
I, for one, would pay good money to see an anarcho-capitalist community planted in the middle of the continent closest to a "state of nature."
Post by: Len Budney on October 13, 2007, 09:27:50 AM
Like Marx, his writings indicate that he is intoxicated with theory and averse to reality.
I, for one, would pay good money to see an anarcho-capitalist community planted in the middle of the continent closest to a "state of nature."
I, for one, would pay good money to see an anarcho-capitalist community planted in the middle of the continent closest to a "state of nature."
Am I the only one who sees the irony in deriding theory and then quoting Hobbes?
Hobbes is a prime example of "intoxication with theory and aversion to reality." There's no such thing as a "state of nature," and never was. Mammals have been herd animals since the dinosaurs stalked the earth.
--Len.
Post by: Ben on October 13, 2007, 10:03:43 AM