Author Topic: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt  (Read 22936 times)

French G.

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2008, 12:56:27 PM »
Random thoughts. Wind power is a sham, helps big companies look green, makes little impact on power supply. Build more nukes. Latest figures on the local wind power project getting shoved down my throat. Project cost of $65 million which will surely go up, what estimate doesn't. Estimated gross per annum of $5.7 million based on tax subsidy a plenty, rosy estimates of production based on nameplate capacity etc.  Using their numbers we break even at 11.4 years. Project service life of 20 years. Wow, the planet savings! BS. Even worse, wind advocates at best see a country of eventually 15% wind power. Poer demand increases 1.5% a year. By the time we build the stupid things we will be as bad oof or worse. Build. More. Nukes.

Iranian Navy. Happens all the time, usually not aggressive, just seeing how we are doing. I've seen some Iranian missile boats and FFGs up close. Very close. CIWS Block 1B, now engaging surface targets, would be my thought if they got a little more aggressive. Rapid firing 76mm on the FFG or the remotely targeted 25mm if they are installed yet would also ruin their day.

Civilian airliner, yeah right. We've been overflown before by "civilian airliners" looked awfully like armed P-3s when the look-outs saw them, didn't look like that to IFF though.

The straits of Hormuz and us being Team America, World Police. If Iran wanted to shut down our oil, they'd attack Canada. A lot of the world's commerce passes through the Straits, not just oil. Other nations depend on that oil far more than we. Freedom of the seas is good for world trade, hence good for us. If we pack up our world cop toys and go home folks will not play quietly in their corners. No one else will step up and re-align stuff until the feces is well through the fan on a large scale. That is pretty much how the world wars started, everyone waited until the situation was beyond hope.  If we are playing Empire we should quit because we are the worst ever. It's like we are playing Monopoly, take Boardwalk and all of the railroads whenever we feel like it, put a bunch of hotels, some fresh paint on it and then give it back to the cappiest player on the board along with a stack of funny money.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

Tecumseh

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #101 on: January 10, 2008, 05:50:51 PM »
All I'm saying is that we need to scale back this international 'mine's bigger than yours' [expletive deleted] we're on.  If you stick it out there long enough, somebody's will cut if off for you.  Our military, our economy and our prestige are all stretched to the max.  We have nothing to gain and lots to lose from this kind of provocation.  It needs to stop.

Really basic geography lesson for you.



See that little narrow passage that goes past IRAN? That's where lots and lots and lots of supertankers go past every day. It's what you call a "strategically and commercially vital waterway".

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The strait at its narrowest is 21 miles wide , having a six mile wide traffic separation scheme (TSS) with two, 2 mile wide traffic lanes, one inbound and one outbound, separated by a 2 mile wide separation zone and is the only sea passage to the open ocean for large areas of the petroleum exporting Persian Gulf States. Some 20 percent of the world's oil supply passes through the strait, making it one of the world's strategically important chokepoints.


So if the Iranian Navy, Chinese Navy, and Russian Navy decided to patrol the international waters around Miami it would be ok?  I mean there are hundres of their ships that go thrrough there.  Their military vessels are going through there.  Not to mention oil and commercial ships.

CAnnoneer

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2008, 06:21:29 PM »
So if the Iranian Navy, Chinese Navy, and Russian Navy decided to patrol the international waters around Miami it would be ok?  I mean there are hundres of their ships that go thrrough there.  Their military vessels are going through there.  Not to mention oil and commercial ships.

If our navy routinely attacks the commercial traffic around Miami and yokels in speedboats play chicken with warships, then my answer would be "yes". Since that is not the case, things are not equal.

De Selby

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2008, 07:24:23 PM »
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Please don't tell me that you bought into the "civilian airliner" BS. It was a plane full of dead bodies flying harassment. That got put to bed years ago.

Are you referring to the shooting down of the Iran Air Airbus by the USS Vincennes back in July 1988?  I am unaware of any objective fact-finding body that came to the conclusion it was full of dead bodies.  If you could post any links to support this, I would be interested to read them.
http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~nrotc/ns302/20note.html
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As tom aluminum and 290 bodies from the shattered airliner rained down on the waters off Qeshm Island, the pieces fell into place for Captain David Carlson, who as a commander then was skipper of the frigate Sides. This curious track number 4131, designated an Iranian F-14 by the Vincennes, simply had not behaved like a combat aircraft.

Indeed, as Captain Carlson would learn minutes after the Airbus plummeted into the water, the electronic specialists in the Sides combat information center had correctly identified the aircraft's commercial transponder code at virtually the same instant that the Vincennes fired her missiles.

Captain Carlson recalled their exclamations: "He shot down COMAIR [a commercial aircraft]!"

To Captain Carlson, the shootdown marked the horrifying climax to Captain Rogers' aggressiveness, first seen just four weeks before.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/ir655-dod-report.html
Note the title page of the House Armed Services Committee Report:  290 victims.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2008, 07:25:48 PM »
Tell, me, how many noncombatant ships did the Iranians attack during that time?  I recall that to end the Iranian depredations, the US, working with allies in the region, reflagged many of the civilian, noncombatant ships with US flags and used the US Navy to protect them.  Some Iranians then died when attacking those ships.  Boo-freakin'-hoo.


For all their attacks, they didn't kill as many civilians, nor do anywhere near the amount of damage, that the US did.  And maybe you don't care about civilian deaths in Iran-but you should see how obvious it is that Iranians care about things like Iranian civilians being shot down.

Maybe it matters to you who started it.  It certainly does not to the Iranians, and it happened-all the more reason why it is obvious that US ships near the Iranian shore are perceived as a threat. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

De Selby

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2008, 07:29:35 PM »
Curiously, the Iranians started the whole mess in the Straits of Hormuz in the 1980s when they began attacking neutral shipping in INTERNATIONAL waters.

I'm sure, in some individuals' universes Iran was justified in doing so because... well, you tell us why they were justified in attacking neutral shipping in international waters. I'm sure it's going to be an amusing rationalization.

yeah, they just decided to attack out of the blue right? Had nothing to do with the US backed Iran/Iraq war.  Or did it? Oh wait-the Iranians sank tankers to deprive Iraq, the ally of the United States, of oil revenue in order to end its war of aggression on Iran.

There can be no serious dispute that Iraq started the war there, and that the US funded Iraq during that time.  So yeah, did Iran really start the mess in the Hormuz in the 80's? I don't think that's anywhere near obvious, and it certainly has nothing to do with today, where despite the "he started it!" claims, it is obvious that having Iranian ships off the US coast is dangerous provocation, just like having US ships off the coast of Iran is dangerous provocation.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Rocketman56

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2008, 01:49:15 AM »
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Bogie:Yup. East St. Louis (in particular, the town of Sauget, owned by the Sauget family, who _leases_ everything to whatever sits on it) is the stripper zone...
 
I don't think that folks have been too particular on some of their property about toxic waste disposal either...


Brings back many memories.. Used to live in Columbia, IL and drive up Rt 3 through Sauget to the US40 Bridge every workday.. (Worked at
the old Famous Barr building which is now WashU's Admin building..) Hmm, that was 1999-2001 timeframe..  HATED the smell
going through there most days... shocked


As for the Navy, (which didn't take me in the 70's due to asthma and bad color recognition.. angry)
I'm sure they'll get their pound of flesh from the
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RileyMc:insane religious fanatic freakazoids!!
grin
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
Robert A. Heinlein

Ad astra per aspera
"through the thorns to the stars"

Finch

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #107 on: January 11, 2008, 05:21:45 PM »
Has anyone confirmed that these boats were indeed Iranian? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but upon hearing this the first thing that popped into my head was that maybe a third party was trying to provoke something between the two nations, kind of like The Sum of All Fears. Just a thought.
Truth is treason in the empire of lies - Ron Paul

Paddy

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #108 on: January 11, 2008, 05:41:48 PM »
Has anyone confirmed that these boats were indeed Iranian? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but upon hearing this the first thing that popped into my head was that maybe a third party was trying to provoke something between the two nations, kind of like The Sum of All Fears. Just a thought.

That's what I wonder.  A few dark skinned people buzzing around in open motorboats does not the Iranian navy make.

280plus

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #109 on: January 12, 2008, 03:21:07 PM »
Food for thought, published in the NYT per the person who sent it to me.

By THOM SHANKER
Published: January 12, 2008
WASHINGTON  There is a reason American military officers express grim concern over the tactics used by Iranian sailors last weekend: a classified, $250 million war game in which small, agile speedboats swarmed a naval convoy to inflict devastating damage on more powerful warships.

Iran Shows Its Own Video of Vessels Encounter in Gulf (January 11, 2008) In the days since the encounter with five Iranian patrol boats in the Strait of Hormuz, American officers have acknowledged that they have been studying anew the lessons from a startling simulation conducted in August 2002. In that war game, the Blue Team navy, representing the United States, lost 16 major warships  an aircraft carrier, cruisers and amphibious vessels  when they were sunk to the bottom of the Persian Gulf in an attack that included swarming tactics by enemy speedboats.
 
The sheer numbers involved overloaded their ability, both mentally and electronically, to handle the attack, said Lt. Gen. Paul K. Van Riper, a retired Marine Corps officer who served in the war game as commander of a Red Team force representing an unnamed Persian Gulf military. The whole thing was over in 5, maybe 10 minutes.
 
If the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, proved to the public how terrorists could transform hijacked airliners into hostage-filled cruise missiles, then the Millennium Challenge 2002 war game with General Van Riper was a warning to the armed services as to how an adversary could apply similar, asymmetrical thinking to conflict at sea.
 
General Van Riper said he complained at the time that important lessons of his simulated victory were not adequately acknowledged across the military. But other senior officers say the war game and subsequent analysis and exercises helped to focus attention on the threat posed by Irans small, fast boats, and helped to prepare commanders for last weekends encounter.
 
Its clear, strategically, where the Iranian military has gone, Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters on Friday. For the years that this strategic shift toward their small, fast boats has taken place, weve been very focused on that.
 
In the simulation, General Van Riper sent wave after wave of relatively inexpensive speedboats to charge at the costlier, more advanced fleet approaching the Persian Gulf. His force of small boats attacked with machine guns and rockets, reinforced with missiles launched from land and air. Some of the small boats were loaded with explosives to detonate alongside American warships in suicide attacks. That core tactic of swarming played out in real life last weekend, though on a much more limited scale and without any shots fired.
 
According to Pentagon and Navy officials, five small patrol boats belonging to Irans Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps charged a three-ship Navy convoy, maneuvering around and between an American destroyer, cruiser and frigate during a tense half-hour encounter. The location was where the narrow Strait of Hormuz meets the open waters of the Persian Gulf  the same choke point chosen by General Van Riper for his attack.
 
In the encounter last Sunday, the commander of one American warship trained an M240 machine gun  which fires upward of 10 armor-piercing slugs per second  on an Iranian boat that pulled within 200 yards of the American vessel. But the Iranians turned away before the commander gave the order to fire.
 
That was not the case in the simulation, sponsored by the militarys Joint Forces Command. The victory of the force modeled after a Persian Gulf state  a composite of Iran and Iraq  astounded sponsors of what was then the largest joint war-fighting exercise ever held, involving 13,500 military members and civilians battling in nine live exercise ranges in the United States, and double that many computer simulations to replicate a number of different battles.
 
General Van Ripers attack was much more complex and sophisticated than anything that could have involved the Iranian boats last weekend. The broad outline of the 2002 war game was reported at the time, but in interviews since last weekends episode, General Van Riper and other officers have provided new details about the simulation.
 
In the war game, scores of adversary speedboats and larger naval vessels had been shadowing and hectoring the Blue Team fleet for days. The Blue Team defenses also faced cruise missiles fired simultaneously from land and from warplanes, as well as the swarm of speedboats firing heavy machine guns and rockets  and pulling alongside to detonate explosives on board.
 
When the Red Team sank much of the Blue navy despite the Blue navys firing of guns and missiles, it illustrated a cheap way to beat a very expensive fleet. After the Blue force was sunk, the game was ordered to begin again, with the Blue Team eventually declared the victor.
 
In a telephone interview, General Van Riper recalled that his idea of a swarming attack grew from Marine Corps studies of the natural world, where insects and animals  from tiny ant colonies to wolf packs  move in groups to overwhelm larger prey.
 
It is not a matter of size or of individual capability, but whether you have the numbers and come from multiple directions in a short period of time, he said.
 
Although Washington and Tehran continue to duel over details of the encounter, American officials say the Iranians may have been seeking to provoke a violent confrontation as President Bush was about to visit the region. Or, the officials say, they might have been hoping to test the American reaction. Yet there is no certainty that the encounter was ordered by the government in Tehran.
 
Pentagon officials on Friday said there were two encounters with small Iranian boats in the region last month. In one, a Navy warship fired warning shots and in the other a warning whistle was sounded. Both encounters ended without injury after the Iranian vessels turned away.
 
Regardless, American sailors have not forgotten how a small boat that hid among refueling and garbage vessels off a port in Yemen detonated alongside the American destroyer Cole in October 2, killing 17 Americans and crippling the warship.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

Manedwolf

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Re: Iranian Navy just fails in Darwin Award attempt
« Reply #110 on: January 13, 2008, 08:43:16 AM »
My opinion? Pieces moving on the chessboard.

If we shot the boats, it would have been "unprovoked aggression", using the same tape the Iranians played as "proof". Mister Imajihad is less than popular with his own people right now. Whipping up nationalistic fervor would help counter that.

Since we did not shoot the boats, which they wanted us to, they had to fall back to another play, using that tape and saying that we faked the video. It was a weaker play.

Now we wait for the next move.