Author Topic: Alternatives for the gasoline automobile  (Read 24956 times)

Manedwolf

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Re: Alternatives for the gasoline automobile
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2008, 08:47:46 AM »
There's two things my father has said contribute to a lot of pilot deaths:

1. Not bothering with the checklist, just getting in and flying without even pulling some fuel to check for water or contamination.
(also see, taking off with the pitot tube cover on and REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT banners flying)

2. When the engine quits immediately following takeoff because of contaminated fuel, instead of keeping the nose down and looking for a field, trying to turn sharply around to the airport, losing all airspeed, and falling out of the air.

Boomhauer

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Re: Alternatives for the gasoline automobile
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2008, 08:54:15 AM »
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1. Not bothering with the checklist, just getting in and flying without even pulling some fuel to check for water or contamination.
(also see, taking off with the pitot tube cover on and REMOVE BEFORE FLIGHT banners flying)

2. When the engine quits immediately following takeoff because of contaminated fuel, instead of keeping the nose down and looking for a field, trying to turn sharply around to the airport, losing all airspeed, and falling out of the air.

You can live w/o an airspeed indicator. Your engine will quit with contaminated fuel. Maybe the idiot lineboy put JetA into it after servicing a KingAir and forgetting to go get the other truck. Maybe their is water condensation.

The "impossible turn" is another subject of hot debate. Sometimes, you have enough altitude and speed to make the turn. Or not. If you are too low, you are going to have to land it ahead, or you may be able to turn some. You can survive landing in the trees if you do it right.

The airplanes I fly (rentals) don't have pitot tube covers, but they do have control locks. That's another way to die easily, forgetting to remove control locks (some planes have external locks).

Many, many ways have an accident. I just listed the two most common- VFR flight into IFR, and fuel exhaustion.
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LAK

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Re: Alternatives for the gasoline automobile
« Reply #102 on: April 30, 2008, 03:37:57 AM »
Firethorn
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Having flown them a number of times, I've found avoiding hitting the ground quite easy.  Even if the engine goes out, I have a considerable ability to coast.  I'll fully admit, a serious mechanical failure is far more dangerous.
Pilot error is the leading cause of aircraft accidents and fatalities. The same can be said of automobiles - and trains for that matter.

The majority of my non-commercial flying experiences were with a older and very experienced pilot - who has in fact crashed once. One of our mutual friends was joking around one day and asked me whether I was not worried about flying with him; I said I would rather fly with someone who has already crashed than someone for whom it might be the first time.

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On the other hand, how more likely are you to be smacked by a SUV driving soccer mom with a cellphone and hand glued to one ear and a cup of coffee in the other hand?
Again; pilot error, incorporating other elements perhaps - such as negligence, misconduct, inattention etc.

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Just like motorcycles, small planes tend to get a pass because they're not 'the' choice of the non-selective consumer.  Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't new small airplane models pretty much been killed by liability concerns?
No one is forced to buy or drive any particular vehicle; and everyone is responsible for the choices they make. If I choose to use a motorcycle, I accept that if I get broadsided by a granny driving a buick who didn't see the light was red because of the setting sun in her eyes - I am going to more likely suffer serious injury than were I driving my 30 year old 4x4.

Likewise, if I choose to drive an MG Midget I accept that if a dump truck piles into my rear in fog on the freeway I am more likely to die than if I am driving a Volvo stationwagon.

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Just because there's a waiting list for left handed lug nuts while right handed ones are a dime a dozen doesn't mean that there isn't more demand for right handed ones.  It means that either there's not enough demand for left handed ones for retailors to keep stock up, or there's an artificial shortage.  Personally, yes, I'll say that it's likely artificial shortage - importation of diesel cars is difficult today, that limits supply.
VW Audi have been importing those diesels for a long time - I doubt that there is an artificial shortage.

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Ah.  Ok, so you prove nothing, instead sputtering about 'prices are inflated'.  Again, I didn't pull my prices for an electric motor from VW, Toyota, or any other OEM car company.  I pulled them from a selection of 3 sites on the internet selling electric motors.  Heck, I looked at prices for motors at EV sites.  They were even more expensive.  $12k in one case.
And again; I am not disputing what the price tags say. I am asking, where exactly is that money spent in making an electric motor?

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Present in the control circuits for an EV/Traction system.  Besides, there's more hand assembly than you might think in those components.  It's one of the reasons so much of our factory work went to china - assembly labor is significantly cheaper there.
Control circuits might be plated, but they are not solid silver, gold or platinum. Yes, there is some hand assembly. But the number of hand operations on an identical scaled down or scaled up items should be the same. If you are making a 900cc V-twin motorcycle engine which is a scaled up version of a 250cc design - the same bearings must be fitted, the same crank, rods, pistons, rings, valves, springs, bolts, nuts, washers, screws, gaskets, seals, o-rings etc. Components will be bigger, heavier - but the hand operations will be the same.

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Funny enough, manufacturers are still putting gasoline engines in most cars instead of traction drives.  I wonder why?  Gasoline engines are cheap.
My lady friend who bought her VW diesel told me she did so because it was an option when they ordered the car costing only $800 more. The fact is a diesel engine does not cost that much more than a gas engine.

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I'm not, but I'm more in farming country.  I see more trucks.  Still, like I've said, as gas prices rise people will economize.  The cars you mentioned are simply the current bottom line.  That there IS enough demand to make producing them economical.  If I produced a Yaris Mini that got 40mpg, but was even smaller, had fewer features, but wasn't significantly cheaper, how many people upon consideration would trade up to the full Yaris?
Well, the Yaris and other small cars I mention are a token comparison, only because there are no diesel traction cars available. A diesel electric car could be expected to have fewer associated running costs in the long term in addition to superior fuel economy. The fact is I am seeing more and more of the smallest conventional cars rolling around town and the freeways here - not to mention those scooters and other associated tiny two-wheelers.

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I think that we're at a sticking point.  I've come up with various links for how much this stuff costs, you simply say 'It's OVERPRICED!'.  I've found diesel+2 electric motors of appropriate size to be ~$5k.  The gasoline engine in a Yaris likely costs ~$1k, the transmission maybe another $200.
Then someones' is gouging somewhere; see VW diesel option $800 somewhere above.

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Not disputing capability, just curious as to the comparitive efficiency.  Tractors are tuned towards torque, because that's what gets used.  Keeping a vehicle at 75mph takes a lot of work as well.
All, or at least all or most conventionally applied diesel engines produce alot of torque. I have loaded a Mercedes 208D van to the roof with furniture and other household items and except for the change in ride, handling and rolling resistance you wouldn't have known the difference shifting through the gears between loaded and empty.

LAK

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Re: Alternatives for the gasoline automobile
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2008, 03:52:47 AM »
Avenger29
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In the fatal crashes, however, the physics just overcome any chance of survivability.
Right; they do not call them the laws of physics for nothing. And if one chooses to fly a plane, or in a plane, one must accept that the potential consequences of a catastrophy - regardless of whether the risk is higher or lower - is rather high. Like a motorcycle. Or a very small lightly built car.