Author Topic: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire  (Read 6561 times)

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Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« on: May 28, 2008, 12:40:38 AM »
Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
 
By Richard Lardner - The Associated Press
Posted : Tuesday May 27, 2008 20:22:33 EDT
 
WASHINGTON  As Army Sgt. Joe Higgins patrolled the streets of Saba al-Bor, a tough town north of Baghdad, he was armed with bullets that had a lot more firepower than those of his 4th Infantry Division buddies.
 
As an Army sniper, Higgins was one of the select few toting an M14. The long-barreled rifle, an imposing weapon built for wars long past, spits out bullets larger and more deadly than the rounds that fit into the M4 carbines and M16 rifles that most soldiers carry.
 
Having a heavy cartridge in an urban environment like that was definitely a good choice, said Higgins, who did two tours in Iraq and left the service last year. It just has more stopping power.
 
Strange as it sounds, nearly seven years into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bullets are a controversial subject for the U.S.
 
The smaller, steel-penetrating M855 rounds continue to be a weak spot in the American arsenal. They are not lethal enough to bring down an enemy decisively, and that puts troops at risk, according to Associated Press interviews.
 
Designed decades ago to puncture a Soviet soldiers helmet hundreds of yards away, the M855 rounds are being used for very different targets in Iraq and Afghanistan. Much of todays fighting takes place in close quarters; narrow streets, stairways and rooftops are todays battlefield. Legions of armor-clad Russians marching through the Fulda Gap in Germany have given way to insurgents and terrorists who hit and run.
 
Fired at short range, the M855 round is prone to pass through a body like a needle through fabric. That does not mean being shot is a pain-free experience. But unless the bullet strikes a vital organ or the spine, the adrenaline-fueled enemy may have the strength to keep on fighting and even live to fight another day.
 
In 2006, the Army asked a private research organization to survey 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Nearly one-fifth of those who used the M4 and M16 rifles wanted larger-caliber bullets.
 
Yet the Army is not changing. The answer is better aim, not bigger bullets, officials say.
 
If you hit a guy in the right spot, it doesnt matter what you shoot him with, said Maj. Thomas Henthorn, chief of the small arms division at Fort Benning, Ga., home to the Armys infantry school.
 
At about 33 cents each, bullets do not get a lot of public attention in Washington, where the size of the debate is usually measured by how much a piece of equipment costs. But billions of M855 rounds have been produced, and Congress is preparing to pay for many more. The defense request for the budget year that begins Oct. 1 seeks $88 million for 267 million M855s, each one about the size of a AAA battery.
 
None of the M855s shortcomings is surprising, said Don Alexander, a retired Army chief warrant officer with combat tours in Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia and Somalia.
 
The bullet does exactly what it was designed to do. It just doesnt do very well at close ranges against smaller-statured people that are lightly equipped and clothed, said Alexander, who spent most of his 26-year military career with the 5th Special Forces Group.
 
Paul Howe was part of a U.S. Military task force 15 years ago in Mogadishu, Somalias slum-choked capital, when he saw a Somali fighter hit in the back from about a dozen feet away with an M855 round.
 
I saw it poof out the other side through his shirt, said Howe, a retired master sergeant and a former member of the Armys elite Delta Force. The guy just spun around and looked at where the round came from. He got shot a couple more times, but the first round didnt faze him.
 
With the M855, troops have to hit their targets with more rounds, said Howe, who owns a combat shooting school in Texas. That can be tough to do under high-stress conditions when one shot is all a soldier might get.
 
The bullet is just not big enough, he said. If Im going into a room against somebody thats determined to kill me, I want to put him down as fast as possible.
 
Martin Fackler, a former combat surgeon and a leading authority on bullet injuries, said the problem is the gun, not the bullet. The M4 rifle has a 14.5 inch barrel  too short to create the velocity needed for an M855 bullet to do maximum damage to the body.
 
The faster a bullet hits the tissue, the more its going to fragment, Fackler said. Bullets that go faster cause more damage. Its that simple.
 
Rules of war limit the type of ammunition conventional military units can shoot. The Hague Convention of 1899 bars hollow-point bullets that expand in the body and cause injuries that someone is less likely to survive. The U.S. was not a party to that agreement. Yet, as most countries do, it adheres to the treaty, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross.
 
The Hague restrictions do not apply to law enforcement agencies, however. Ballistics expert Gary Roberts said that is an inconsistency that needs to be remedied, particularly at a time when so many other types of destructive ordnance are allowed in combat.
 
It is time to update this antiquated idea and allow U.S. military personnel to use the same proven ammunition, Roberts said.
 
In response to complaints from troops about the M855, the Armys Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey assigned a team of soldiers, scientists, doctors and engineers to examine the rounds effectiveness. The teams findings, announced in May 2006, concluded there were no commercially available rounds of similar size better than the M855.
 
But Anthony Milavic, a retired Marine Corps major, said the Army buried the studys most important conclusion: that larger-caliber bullets are more potent.
 
It was manipulated, said Milavic, a Vietnam veteran who manages an online military affairs forum called MILINET. Everybody knows there are bullets out there that are better.
 
Officials at Picatinny Arsenal declined to be interviewed. In an e-mailed response to questions, they called the M855 an overall good performer. Studies are being conducted to see if it can be made more lethal without violating the Hague Convention, they said.
 
Larger rounds are not necessarily better, they also said. Other factors such as the weather, the amount of light and the bullets angle of entry also figure into how lethal a single shot may be.
 
Heavier rounds also mean more weight for soldiers to carry, as well as more recoil  the backward kick created when a round is fired. That long has been a serious issue for the military, which has troops of varied size and strength.
 
The M14 rifle used by Joe Higgins was once destined to be the weapon of choice for all U.S. military personnel. When switched to the automatic fire mode, the M14 could shoot several hundred rounds a minute. But most soldiers could not control the gun, and in the mid-1960s it gave way to the M16 and its smaller cartridge. The few remaining M14s are used by snipers and marksman.
 
U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., is buying a carbine called the SCAR Heavy for its commandos, and it shoots the same round as the M14. The regular Army, though, has invested heavily in M4 and M16 rifles and has no plans to get rid of them.
 
A change in expectations is needed more than a change in gear, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, chief of combat developments at Fort Benning. Soldiers go through training believing that simply hitting a part of their target is enough to kill it. On a training range, getting close to the bulls-eye counts. But in actual combat, nicking the edges isnt enough.
 
Where you hit is essential to the equation, Radcliffe said. I think the expectations are a little bit off in terms of combat performance against target range performance. And part of that is our fault for allowing that expectation to grow when its really not there at all.
 
The arguments over larger calibers, Radcliffe said, are normal in military circles where emotions over guns and bullets can run high.
 
One of the things Ive discovered in guns is that damn near everyone is an expert, he said. And they all have opinions.
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seeker_two

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2008, 01:26:46 AM »
We really need a bullet like the 5.45x39....penetration when needed, but will tumble on impact...if we're going to keep the 5.56 round. But I'd be just as happy if we went to a heavier round like the .243 or .280.....
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2008, 01:31:00 AM »
So wait, the US is not a party to Hague?

I have an idea.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2008, 01:58:53 AM »
Quote
Strange as it sounds, nearly seven years into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bullets are a controversial subject for the U.S.


Why is that strange? 
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2008, 01:59:52 AM »
Quote
Strange as it sounds, nearly seven years into the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, bullets are a controversial subject for the U.S.


Why is that strange? 

Why should bullets be controversial in a country wherein up to 15 billion rounds are bought by citizens every year?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Lennyjoe

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2008, 02:53:19 AM »
I actually liked the 6.8 SPC numbers.  Even thought about building an AR in that caliber.

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2008, 02:59:17 AM »
I actually liked the 6.8 SPC numbers.  Even thought about building an AR in that caliber.

I agree, my next AR upper is going to be a Ko-Tonics
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mfree

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2008, 03:38:21 AM »
So why don't they field a non-AP lightly built 62gr FMJ that'll come apart, and stagger load with M855 so you can pierce what needs piercing and frag what needs fragging?

Or something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_262 ?

The Annoyed Man

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2008, 06:32:48 AM »
I actually liked the 6.8 SPC numbers.  Even thought about building an AR in that caliber.

I agree, my next AR upper is going to be a Ko-Tonics

When I realized that bug in your signature was purposely put in there to irritate me I initially wanted to punch you but after a moment I laughed out loud and got back to reading.

K Frame

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2008, 06:38:25 AM »
Things have been going downhill ever since they got away from the .50-70 for that pussy wimpy weak sub caliber .45-70 round.
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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2008, 06:59:47 AM »
I actually liked the 6.8 SPC numbers.  Even thought about building an AR in that caliber.

I agree, my next AR upper is going to be a Ko-Tonics

When I realized that bug in your signature was purposely put in there to irritate me I initially wanted to punch you but after a moment I laughed out loud and got back to reading.
Heck I just "Adblock" the image and go on.

Regards,

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seeker_two

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2008, 07:03:12 AM »
Things have been going downhill ever since they got away from the .50-70 for that pussy wimpy weak sub caliber .45-70 round.

I'll bet you were against the Spencer Carbine, too....no honest soldier needs a rifle that holds more than one round, right?....
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Gewehr98

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2008, 09:55:36 AM »
Quote
One of the things Ive discovered in guns is that damn near everyone is an expert, he said. And they all have opinions.

Ain't that the truth? Wink

Problem is, I've put my M14NM and AR15s in the back recesses of the safes for a couple years now, and been shooting a .45-70 almost exclusively. 

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2008, 01:23:35 PM »
Quote
When I realized that bug in your signature was purposely put in there to irritate me

It wasn't put there to bug you, it was put there to ...I don't know...why did he put it there?

Personally, I like it.

but back on topic, I bet the author of the article doesn't know the difference between a .223 or a .22LR
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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2008, 01:40:54 PM »
I had to put it somewhere, and I couldn't justify getting rid of Bill D. Cat.  grin
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2008, 12:45:00 AM »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

wmenorr67

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2008, 01:10:54 AM »
And the question of the day is what is the reason for the military switching over to the 5.56 round?
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Manedwolf

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2008, 04:00:20 AM »
And the question of the day is what is the reason for the military switching over to the 5.56 round?

I believe the original reason for Stoner's design was a lightweight rifle with increased capacity, wasn't it? That was why they went from the gas piston to the direct impingement, to shave weight. Of course, the fact that people now strap everything but the kitchen sink on the M-4's tends to make that irrelevant...

It certainly couldn't have been lethality. Someone shot with a 7.62x51 from the M-14 tended to be dead.

wmenorr67

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 04:04:09 AM »
We have a winner.

Yep, decrease weight so an individual can carry more ammo.
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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2008, 06:53:50 AM »
We have a winner.

Yep, decrease weight so an individual can carry more ammo.

So why didn't they go with a full-auto BB gun Huh?
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K Frame

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2008, 07:57:23 AM »
Things have been going downhill ever since they got away from the .50-70 for that pussy wimpy weak sub caliber .45-70 round.

I'll bet you were against the Spencer Carbine, too....no honest soldier needs a rifle that holds more than one round, right?....

Grasp the concept of sarcasm much?
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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2008, 08:28:17 AM »
Things have been going downhill ever since they got away from the .50-70 for that pussy wimpy weak sub caliber .45-70 round.

I'll bet you were against the Spencer Carbine, too....no honest soldier needs a rifle that holds more than one round, right?....

Grasp the concept of sarcasm much?

Firmly and often....  grin
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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2008, 04:02:10 PM »
I'd rather carry 200 rounds of something I know is effective, then 500 rounds of something that is "eh" (at least as far as ammo goes, no I wouldn't want to be shot with it lol)

It comes down to margin of error.  If I am in a firefight shooting at some crazed guy bent on killing me so he can go deflower some disembodied virgins, I don't wanna have to hit him right in the heart.  I want a hit a few inches off target to be just as deadly as one right through his heart.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2008, 04:48:05 PM »
I'd rather carry 200 rounds of something I know is effective, then 500 rounds of something that is "eh" (at least as far as ammo goes, no I wouldn't want to be shot with it lol)

It comes down to margin of error.  If I am in a firefight shooting at some crazed guy bent on killing me so he can go deflower some disembodied virgins, I don't wanna have to hit him right in the heart.  I want a hit a few inches off target to be just as deadly as one right through his heart.

Well, it also depends on the environment. 7.62x51 in an urban environment can get the innocent person in the next house. I've got 5.56 and 7.62x51 rifles, but I'd reach for the former in a SHTF looter situation where I live, because I actually like my neighbors. Away from everything, at a vehicle, or at a distance, the latter due to superior penetration ability. You don't always want that much penetration if there's good guys behind walls beyond bad guys!

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Re: Smaller-caliber bullets come under fire
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2008, 07:36:55 PM »
For awhile now I've worked out my personal preference.

If I'm only responsible for myself, I'll take a US Rifle, M1, Caliber .30.

If I'm operating in a squad I'll take the M1A/M14.

More practically, as someone who is told that all I need to carry on a daily basis is the M9, I have no complaints about the M4 Carbine.  When I drill with my Guard unit, I see it as a significant upgrade.  It is simply a matter of perspective.  I think I should have one at work; there is just that pesky public relations issue.

As told to me by the OIF vets in my Guard unit, they shot the crap out of their rifles at the Mob station (Fort Dix in this case) before deploying.  Train me, give me a rifle, and I'll be happy on a basic level.
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