"Doing the Work Americans Won't DO?"

[Leatherneck]

I fired the architect at the river house and took over getting subs to finish the house. Great architect, lousy GC. Nice guy.

Let me state up front that I have continuously and repeatedly told everybody that I don't hire illegal immigrants--only legal guys get my money.

I've been pissed off by a couple of the local subs: the painter who bid $28,500 for painting the interior and exterior; and now the drywall guy who bid $14,000 for installing and finishing 250 4x12 sheets of 1/2" drywall.

I bought my carpenter an HVLP sprayer and bought the Benjamin Moore paint myself and painted the outside for a total of $3,500. I have some friends of my Salvadoran carpenter who will hang and finish with three coats of mud all the drywall for $4,250.

What the Hell are these local guys thinking? Am I to fund their retirement accounts? I mean, if it was a few hundred bucks, I'd go local. Maybe even a couple of thousand. But not factors of four-ten.

BTW, these Salvadoran guys are doing excellent work, and I'm fussy with no patience for sloppy work.

What's going on is that the legal immigrants are working harder and better than the good ole' boys from the river county.

Your thoughts?

TC

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

will your drywall guy bid a job in fredericksburg? going rate is 22 a sheet.i paid 30 a sheet job but he primed painted and did the baseboard as well as a cabinet crown mold at the ceiling, my guy is too busy.hes from guatemala. hes either legal or got the best papers i've ever seen

as to the good old boys too many of em work on idea of making a few big kills as opposed to a small killing everyday.
plus the amigoes that come here are the amibitious guys  the lazy ones are still back home

[Bigjake]

Legal Immigrants want to bust ass, cut their prices and get all the business, while doing a quality job?  Go for it!  Thats the whole friggin point of coming to the US!  Good on' em! (even better, because those are usually the dudes that assimilate, learn English, and become productive members of society!)

The only people that are pissed about this situation are the union slobs that think they are somehow entitled to make 30-40 bucks an hours on a high school education (at best), with minimal effort, and a 9:00-3:30 work schedule with an hour lunch. Screw those guys. 

Illegals swimming the Rio Grande just to hang out in Home Depot parking lots??  Screw those guys too, round em' up, ship em' home.

[Grandpa Shooter]

"as to the good old boys too many of em work on idea of making a few big kills as opposed to a small killing everyday"


That about sums it up.  I fix houses for a living.  Not a fortune, just a living.  I do all trades.  I price my work for repeat business, not to retire off one job.  Funny how that turns out.  I have more work than my helper and I can do, and it's been that way for the last 5 years.  Only time I have had off is when I had surgery last October.

Go for the work, and the money will follow!  Worked that way for me for the last 25 years.

[Stetson]

My cousin is, almost, in the same boat.  He owns a remodeling company in Houston.

The only people willing to give a days work for a days pay are the legal immigrants.  He won't hire illegals either and has told me it is tough trying to find anyone to work for him, even high school kids that are out for the summer.

[LAK]

as to the good old boys too many of em work on idea of making a few big kills as opposed to a small killing everyday

Yep; they do a "bang up job" - that usually needs completely stripping off/demolishing and doing over again. By the time most people have figured it out, the "firm" has shut down, the owner nowhere to be found. They shut one operation down and open somewhere else under a different name, and so on.

And "doing work Americans won't do" has been a misleading cliche from the start. Americans were doing quite well in 1948, and 1958, doing what was needed. The difference is that now, the big cheap migrant labor pool has depressed wages; and many Americans can not afford to live on wages that are less than they were ten or fifteen years ago.

[MechAg94]

LAK, the problem is that many contractors are bidding much higher than the labor rate alone would count for.  For me, I wouldn't mind at all paying a bit more labor cost if I knew I was getting good work from someone who knows their job.  What I don't want is someone bidding up the job then trying to slam it in and cover up or overlook mistakes.  My boss does all his work on his house himself.  Said that even if he doesn't know how to do it, he could still probably make it look as good as guys he would likely find to hire.

My uncle still does carpentry work.  He has done some great cabinet work for my parents.  I have had other relatives in the carpentry business, but most found other jobs over time.  A good all round carpenter is a good person to know. 

I moved into my current house 2 years ago.  I have been asking around about who does good work on cars.  I have only heard of one guy and everyone says he is busy all the time and you need to give him some notice. 

[alex_trebek]

What the Hell are these local guys thinking? Am I to fund their retirement accounts? I mean, if it was a few hundred bucks, I'd go local. Maybe even a couple of thousand. But not factors of four-ten.

I think some of this over-bidding could be the result of "get rich quick," and the "I want it NOW" mentalities prevalent in our society.  I think there are still plenty of Americans willing to work nasty jobs, and not demand a huge salary.  An example is the vermin show, and dirty jobs on discovery channel.  Next time you want to find cheap summer labor, try the college campus.  I know plenty of poor college students with nothing to do over the summer, and need the money.  You could even find people that are majoring in construction, or tech classes that are willing to work for the experience. 

You can find hardworking Americans, just need to look in other places....

[TF_FH]

My cousin is, almost, in the same boat.  He owns a remodeling company in Houston.

The only people willing to give a days work for a days pay are the legal immigrants.  He won't hire illegals either and has told me it is tough trying to find anyone to work for him, even high school kids that are out for the summer.

About a year ago I tried to get some neighborhood kids to mow the yard (It was a complete mess with overgrown weeds, but I didn't need them to pull them, just to mow the stuff with the mower I provided.) and the little shits had the gall to tell me it would run me about $90.  If the kid wasn't 15 I would have had some "choice words".  Did the yard myself in about an hour and a half.

That whole thing on the, "Doing the work Americans won't do?".  Thats for the lazy generation (Generally 15-28 or so) we seem to have today that expects big bucks for minimum wage work.

[ilbob]

In another persona, I frequent a site that caters to the electrical trade. The electrical contractors there rant on and on about how rates are too low. I am an engineer with 25+ years of experience and they think a journeyman electrician should be billing for more than what my company bills my time at.

One of them posted the other day that the so called "prevailing wage" for a journeyman electrician in NYC now exceeds $75 per hour.

[FTA84]

I agree that most of these guys *believe* that they cannot live on less than the outrageous wages they are charging.  That is because today, many of these guys have a large sense of entitlement.  They believe they are entitled to a good job, with little or no education, that can pay on their $500k house while owning two cars, paying child support and raising another child.

I am all for opening up our borders (with the obvious protections to avoid letting in terrorists/criminals).

1.  The whole premise of capitalism is that wealth is not finite.  The more people that participate in a capitalistic society, the more goods that are made available and the cheaper the goods become.

2.   It is not really fair that X's grandparents came over from country Y, worked hard, got union jobs passed it onto son and then grandson.  Then grandson expects, because his father and grandfather worked at this factory, that he will get to work there reguardless of his abilities/commitments.  Grandson must keep out that pesky competitive foreign labor that was his grandfather because he knows he gets paid too much / has too high of living standards for doing what he does.

3.  It is immoral to keep other human beings trapped in mud hut hovels when they are willing to work hard because you feel entitled to live like a king simply for being 'American'.


Though, I am not for providing these folks with much in the way of social services.  I believe anyone who wants to come here and work should work and if you don't want to work, you're not going to freeload off those who do.

[Racehorse]

I think at least part of the problem is that so many consumers are so easy to rip off. They're too lazy to do their homework and find out what a job should really cost. Since they have no clue what a job is worth, they're willing to pay $30,000 to get the house painted thinking that's just what it costs. Anyone who doesn't get multiple bids and research the cost of materials needed to do the job deserves to get ripped off, in my opinion.

[Stetson]

My cousin is, almost, in the same boat.  He owns a remodeling company in Houston.

The only people willing to give a days work for a days pay are the legal immigrants.  He won't hire illegals either and has told me it is tough trying to find anyone to work for him, even high school kids that are out for the summer.

About a year ago I tried to get some neighborhood kids to mow the yard (It was a complete mess with overgrown weeds, but I didn't need them to pull them, just to mow the stuff with the mower I provided.) and the little shits had the gall to tell me it would run me about $90.  If the kid wasn't 15 I would have had some "choice words".  Did the yard myself in about an hour and a half.

That whole thing on the, "Doing the work Americans won't do?".  Thats for the lazy generation (Generally 15-28 or so) we seem to have today that expects big bucks for minimum wage work.

I just fired the kid I had taking care of my yard.  He wanted a summer job and the price wasnt bad - $35 for mowing and weedeating, using my equipment.  I walked him around the first day and explained what needed to be done and how to do it.  He managed to not do it the right way, everytime.   

[InfidelSerf]

While I certainly agree with some of the premises being discussed here.
I think a few factors that are being overlooked, are the extremely high costs involved with running a business legitimately in today's litigious happy environment.
Insurance, worker's comp insurance, taxes.  Are all outside factors that must be figured into a bid on a job that the GC or sub has no control over.
Granted that would not explain bids 10 times the cheater's bid.  But it explains a large percentage of it.
The guy that just has the skill and is willing to work "off the books" can undercut a legitimate contractor anyday of the week.
He can also compensate his time by focusing more on quality and or have a time reserve to repair mistakes as he goes.
The guy that is trying to comply with all the paperwork requirements doesn't have that luxury. He has to get it done right the first time in the quickest time possible just to keep up.
So it's not always the stereotypical "lazy American" that wants everything for nothing attitude.   
A lot of it is simple over regulation paralleled by depressed job cost expectations due to cheaters in the market.
JMHO

[LAK]

MechAg94

LAK, the problem is that many contractors are bidding much higher than the labor rate alone would count for.  For me, I wouldn't mind at all paying a bit more labor cost if I knew I was getting good work from someone who knows their job.  What I don't want is someone bidding up the job then trying to slam it in and cover up or overlook mistakes.  My boss does all his work on his house himself.  Said that even if he doesn't know how to do it, he could still probably make it look as good as guys he would likely find to hire.

My uncle still does carpentry work.  He has done some great cabinet work for my parents.  I have had other relatives in the carpentry business, but most found other jobs over time.  A good all round carpenter is a good person to know. 

I moved into my current house 2 years ago.  I have been asking around about who does good work on cars.  I have only heard of one guy and everyone says he is busy all the time and you need to give him some notice.

Alot of these guys are just plain greedy. My local church had a roof and siding done over a large hall; it was not cheap, imported labor. I watched them putting on roofing tiles with nailguns; too few nails per tile. The composite siding, again with nailguns; nails overdriven breaking the surface and structural integrity of the siding panels and a list of other problems. It all has to be completely done over again.

Yep; a good, honest vehicle mechanic is hard to find. I use a shop now that is run by a couple of guys who know what they are doing and charge reasonable hourly rates. I can usually get good parts cheap(er) so usually provide them myself.

I try and do as much as I can myself, whether it is cars or anything else. But if I have any doubts I pass it on to someone else.

[Hawkmoon]

It's all in the overhead.

A generation (or maybe two generations) ago, a "contractor" was a guy who had worked in a trade or three, knew how to do the work, and had either made his way up the ladder into management or had split off and started his own company.

Today, it's all MBA types. I was poking through the classifieds in the daily bird cage liner just yesterday. No jobs for construction workers but any number of openings for "project managers." The prerequisites? Must have excellent working knowledge of MS Office apps, including Excel, and experience with MS Project and Timberline software.

I see it in the field all the time. Go on a site today and you don't deal with anyone who actually understands how to build anything, or what a code requirement is. The only thing they understand is whether or not they're ahead of their hopelessly optimistic critical path. Mention that the approved plans call for 5/8" Firecode sheetrock and they've just unloaded two truckloads of 1/2" non-Firecode and their eyes glaze over.

PM: "Is that a problem?"

Me: "Only if you expect to get a certificate of occupancy so you can sell this place when it's finished."

Went by a car dealership undergoing a major showroom alteration the other day. Big new, monumental stair out in front, gotta be at least 8 feet high from the bottom to the entrance/exit door. It's been "finished" for three weeks, but nobody ever called for an inspection. They're using it every day. It's the main exit. There's a double door for the exit, and there isn't a handrail within 15 feet of the exit path.

PM: "Is that a problem? We need handrails?"

Me: "Doesn't this plan, that was approved by the building department at town hall, show handrails? Where are they?"

PM: "Oh. Well, is it okay if they just keep using the stairs without railings for awhile?"

Me: "Your call. And the first time somebody slips and breaks a leg, they hire an ambulance chaser attorney, who hires a 'forensic investigator' who visits town hall and sees no inspections and no certificate of occupancy, and your liability insurance carrier walks away. Do as you wish. Have a nice day -- Sir."

I don't know where they get these guys. How they ever made it through college and graduate school is a mystery, as I would never have let them go beyond junior high school. But ... they all pull down major salaries, wear laundry-washed, pressed and starched shirts, and drive BMWs. That's why the American contractors aren't competitive. It's because they've universally injected a couple or three totally useless and universally incompetent layers of overhead to their operations.

[LAK]

Mention that the approved plans call for 5/8" Firecode sheetrock and they've just unloaded two truckloads of 1/2" non-Firecode and their eyes glaze over.

And as a construction worker, point out that something "is not a good idea", or, done that way "it is going to fall apart in a couple of years", you can watch eyes glaze over as well. Not to mention, if you bring it up more than once you are likely to be looking for another job.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

run intothe same lack of qualification with some inspectors. once upon a time the guy doing electrical inspections was an electrician. no longer they are crossed trained and you get some odd results.not so much malevelant as clueless