Author Topic: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too  (Read 1322 times)

MicroBalrog

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Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« on: August 24, 2008, 05:46:21 PM »
Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too


A civil liberties group suing AT&T for helping the government warrantlessly spy on Americans isn't abandoning its lawsuit after Congress voted to give retroactive immunity to the nation's telcoms.

Instead, the scrappy San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation now says that it will expand its efforts and sue the government over the spy program that operated outside of the court system for more than six years.

"If Congress wants to shut down one avenue, we will go down another," EFF legal director Cindy Cohn said, noting that the amnesty provisions in the FISA Amendments Act of 2008 do not apply the government itself as the Administration had first wanted.

The full extent of the government's warrantless spying has yet to be revealed, but it is reported to involve massive data-mining of Americans' phone records, and broad wiretapping of communicationst that enter or leave the U.S. border .

After the portion that targeted Americans' international communications was submitted to the nation's acquiesent secret spying court for blanket approval in January 2007, the program was quickly found to be illegal.

That prompted the Bush Administration to scare Congress into giving it wide, but temporary powers to turn American internet and phone companies into de facto extensions of the nation's spooks.

After a few months of standing up to the Administration's typical terrorism rhetoric, a Democratic-controlled Congress caved to political pressure in July and handed a significant victory to President Bush by approving retroactive amnesty to telecoms that spied on Americans without following the st helping the government warrantlessly and secretly spy on Americans.

Other groups have attempted to sue the government over the warrantless spying, but even the most successful of them have eventually failed since the plaintiffs can't convince a court that they were spied on.

The EFF will rely on the same evidence its civil suit does -- wiring documents and a signed declaration from former AT&T engineer Mark Klein. Klein alleges that AT&T siphoned off internet traffic into a secret room in San Francisco controlled by the NSA. (See Wired.com's publication of the Klein documents that remain under partial seal in federal court.)

Though the EFF didn't want to sue the government originally, the amnesty issue forced their hand, according to Cohn.

"If it was illegal for AT&T to turn over the data, then it was illegal for government to receive it," Cohn said.

Cohn admits the government has many sovereign immunity defenses that can protect it from lawsuits, but says they aren't insurmountable and that the program clearly violates the Fourth Amendment.

As for the unexpectedly long-lived suit against AT&T, the government and the EFF are discussing when and how the government will attempt to have the case dismissed using the amnesty provision. The EFF wants to challenge the legality of the amnesty before it is actually applied, while the government prefers to have the case dismissed first -- then have the EFF fight the dismissal.

Lawyers for both sides will meet with the judge in the case in early September, setting a likely date for the next court appearance in December.

The case is known as Hepting vs. AT&T.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/rights-group-su.html
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2008, 05:48:59 PM »
didn't congress just vote em immunity?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MicroBalrog

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2008, 05:50:47 PM »
didn't congress just vote em immunity?

Apparently some legal avenues remain open.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

RevDisk

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2008, 07:06:42 PM »
didn't congress just vote em immunity?

Congress gave them near blanket immunity regarding illegal wiretapping.  They gave them complete blanket immunity regarding destruction of records and evidence, not specifically stating that such destruction of evidence should be limited to illegal wiretapping requested by the feds.  I'm not a lawyer, but the language of the law looked pretty open ended. 

So now the EFF is using the govt rather than individual telcos. 

Folks, donate a couple bucks to the EFF if you can spare it.  They're very BoR friendly and don't play favorites on which amendments they like and which they don't.  The last EFF fundraiser (at Defcon) was a pistol sim range, so obviously they're enthusastic about the Second as well as the First.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Nitrogen

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 09:26:53 PM »
Hopefully this will be an avenue for "activist judges" to actually do something right for a change?
Here's hoping.
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RevDisk

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 03:46:02 PM »
Hopefully this will be an avenue for "activist judges" to actually do something right for a change?
Here's hoping.

Slapping the Executive branch on the wrist when they break the law and the Constitution is not being an activist.  For a judge, it's called "doing your job".  To do anything else is playing "activist judge".
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 04:09:37 PM »
aren't you fellers forgetting that two branches of gov signed off on this
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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RevDisk

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2008, 04:50:42 PM »
aren't you fellers forgetting that two branches of gov signed off on this

So has all gun control legislation, as far as I am aware.  Has any gun control been passed after overriding a Presidential veto?

Doesn't mean you shouldn't continue trying to fight bad laws.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2008, 04:55:06 PM »
just pointing out the executive wasn't the only branch to signoff
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

RevDisk

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 05:18:20 PM »
just pointing out the executive wasn't the only branch to signoff

The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 Amendments Act of 2008 did not legitimize all illegal aspects of the NSA's conduct.  Just most of it, unfortunately. 

The point of FISA is not to prohibit the government from wiretapping anyone they damn well please.  They do that.  It's to provide an audit trail to throw elected officials (and potentially the telcoms) in jail for when they abuse their power.  The amendments do not remove the requirement to get a warrant, just makes it lengthens the time required to obtain a warrant after the fact.  The amendments just give blanket immunity to the telcoms for illegal acts committed before the passage, and future blanket immunity to the telcoms should the US government choose to break the law (again).  Plus permission to destroy evidence without penalty.  I wish I was being sarcastic. 

Some folks are under the opinion that FISA prevents the NSA and other entities from catching terrorists.  This is incorrect.  The entire year of 2004, 18,761 warrants were issued by the FISA courts.  Five were rejected.  That's a 99.97% acceptance.  The government can resubmit a rejected request, with or without modifications, for acceptance.  I won't accuse the feds of judge shopping on resubmissions.  Mind you, these requests can be made after the fact in the event of an emergency.  They previously had 48 business hours (ie, not including weekends or federal holidays) to submit for a warrant, after the fact.  Now it is 168 hours. 


Here is the interesting part.  I am not a lawyer, so take it for what its worth with a big bucket of salt.  Reading the law, Congress passed specific immunity to telecommunications companies for "past or future cooperation with federal law enforcement authorities and will assist the intelligence community in determining the plans of terrorists."  Congress did NOT include immunity to federal employees that violated FISA.  Technically, they can still be charged and found guilty for the crimes they admitted to committing.

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Nitrogen

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Re: Rights Group Suing AT&T for Spying Will Sue Government Too
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2008, 05:48:30 PM »
Hopefully this will be an avenue for "activist judges" to actually do something right for a change?
Here's hoping.

Slapping the Executive branch on the wrist when they break the law and the Constitution is not being an activist.  For a judge, it's called "doing your job".  To do anything else is playing "activist judge".

the quotes were my (lame) attempt at sarcasm tags.
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Remember. Never Again.
What does it mean to be an American?  Have you forgotten? | http://youtu.be/0w03tJ3IkrM