Installing tile in a new house. How?

[Leatherneck]

So I'm planning ahead as I await the guys who will hang and finish the drywall, and it's apparent I will do the tile in the bathrooms. I've got a wet tile saw I borrowed, and I've got the basic structure (firm 3/4" subfloor over 2x10 joists on 12" centers). What more do I need?

1. Walk-in shower: I have a 10-mil membrane installed on the floor and up the walls a few inches. I have 1/2-inch "Blue Board" on the walls, over the studs, fastened with bugle-head screws.

2. I have 3/4" plywood subfloor over joists on the bathroom floors.

My questions:
1. Should I put cementacious backer board over the membrane in the shower? I suspect "yes." Do I fasten the backer with screws through the shower pan? Seems like that would make potential leaks at each screw.

2. In the field outside the shower, I plan to screw down said backer board and use thinset mortar to set the tiles in. Correct? If it matters, I plan to embed--per manufacturer's direction--a heater web backed by fiberglass.

Gimme some smarts here guys, please.

TC

[never_retreat]

I've never tiled a shower pan before.
But noting good could come from putting cement board and nails through the liner. The few that I saw done lined the area then built up a mud bed tapering it towards the drain.

I don't know if that helps at all.
Maybe pick up a book at the depot.

[The Annoyed Man]

Whoa up there a sec.

First things first.

Read this page: http://ezinearticles.com/?Tiling-a-Shower-with-Ceramic-Tile-is-Easy&id=319145

And this page: http://www.thetiledoctor.com/howto/showers.cfm Pics here.

After that it should make sense to you. Biggest issue you will have is getting the mortar sloped to the drain evenly around the shower. I like to start the mud at the outside edges and push it down toward the drain rather than try to pull it away from the drain. Make sure you have a level line around the walls at finished pan hight. Other wise your mortar could get too high up the wall. I would put heavy polyurethane sheeting around to help fight mold and mildew in the walls before the cement board. No green board needed that way.

Jim

[Grandpa Shooter]

What you are doing is what I do for a living.  I fix houses and do custom work.  Your answers are:

1.  The shower walls should be covered with some form of tile backer board attached with the recommended screws.  The backer board should go all the way to the floor.  All seams should be caulked.  If you are setting in a commercially produced shower pan, you need to be absolutely certain you have the plumbing in straight so that you can place the shower pan in and hook up the drain and p-trap.  The shower pan must be sell supported so that you don't have "soft" areas or creaks as you move around in the shower.  If you or someone in the family is heavier than normal make certain you support it very well.  If you plan to pour a cement pan, I recommend you strike a line from the top of the drain at a slant of 1 1/2" to the opposite end of the shower enclosure.  You must leave at least a 2" rise at the doorway to the shower for water backing up.  On the low end it should be at least 1/2" thick with a slope to the drain of a 1/4" to a 4" radius.

2.  Yes you will be setting the tile in thinset.  I recommend white rather than gray unless you are using dark tile.  The space you leave between tiles will depend on the size of the tile.  6-8" leave 1/8", 8-12 leave 1/4", 12-16 leave 3/8".  On a space of 1/8" you will use NON sanded grout.  1/4" or more use SANDED grout in a color of your choosing.  Remember almost all grout dries lighter than the color on the package.  You will be mixing it to the consistency of good mayonaise, or a good pudding.  Find a flat sponge grout trowel, it will be much better than the old style rubber float.

3.  There is a good reason tile guys get paid well.  Doing it yourself and having never done tile before, you need to take your time and measure everything very carefully and plan well ahead.  Lay the tiles out to see how they line up with the walls and corners.  Start at a point where you end up with at least a half tile at the edges.  Less than that and they often don't hold well for the long run.  Double check your self.  Don't mix more thinset than what you can use in  20 minutes and no more grout than what you can use in 10 minutes.  Going back and remixing it after it has started to set up is a bad idea unless you are experienced at it.

Good luck and PM me if you need more help

Grandpa

[The Annoyed Man]

Yes they do! I prefer to be able to walk past the age of 40. Tiling my baths and showers was harder than shingling the roof.

Jim

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i lay  quite a bit of tile and have switched to a product called ditra by a german compahy  schluter  they have a good website excellent customer service. they sell a shower kit that beats sliced bread  has a tapered base that can be adapted to fit any plumbing configuration. its pricey but saves on the labor end   more than compensates. been used in europe quite a while and as perverse as it sounds allows the tile to"float" just a hair to avoid cracks as house moves.  very important to not use fortified/modified thinset with this product between membrane and tile. can use fortified to bond membrane to subfloor but not tile to membrane. i save a full day on most jobs with this stuff. more on a big job. holler if you get stuck i'm in the neighborhood sorta.good kneepads and take your time. i use spacers to helptoo. i also use a laser light for layout and dry lay tile a lot. truly time spent on recon is never wasted

its no joke about how hard it is on bod i laid just under 10k feet last year  to me its about equally as painful as shingles, provided the shingles are roof delivered

[K Frame]

I would say no, you NEVER penetrate the shower pan with anything that's not the drain opening.

Every shower I've seen that has had tile installed has a mortar bed base built OVER the pan.

Personally I HATE tile with a passion for bath applications.

[Leatherneck]

Thanks guys for the "encouragement."  Worse than a roof? OMG--I swore my workshop was the last roof EVAR!

To clarify: this is a 9'x4' walk-in shower with a high-cap shower head at one end and a bench at the other with a hand-held shower head that hangs at a convenient height for the bench. The door is centered on the 9' wall with a curb of two 2x4s. The membrane is in place and covers the drain, the curb, and comes up the walls about 6" on each side. I've installed a new backer board on the walls that's like high-density fiberglass mixed with cement and has a blue finish. The depot guy said that product was performing better than standard water-resistant gypsum board for tile walls.

So I use thinset over the membrane to set the floor tiles. That makes much more sense than using any kind of panels that would have to be mechanically fastened by screws or nails through the membrane. Roger to the advice about sloping the mortar bed toward the drain, and about laying out the tiles evenly.

I'll be using 12"x12" tiles on the walls, but I'm thinking smaller for the floor; say 6" or 8". I understand about sizing the grout lines according to tile size.

The drain is roughed in, with the PVC flange raised about 3/4" off the subfloor; should the finished height of the tile at the drain be level with the flange? Or should the tile run under the flange to support it?

OK, this is stuff I can chew on for a bit and select material. First order of business this weekend is to dig up and repair the 2" septic line the phone cable guy broke in the driveway. My least favorite work of all. Even worse than roofing and tile setting. Maybe it will rain to make it more fun still.

Thanks again for the advice. I'm sure I'll be back!

TC

[41magsnub]

Over the years my Dad and I have done all sorts of remodeling projects in our various houses involving major framing, installing and mudding sheet rock, replacing windows, electrical, plumbing, roofing, and most everything else.  The one thing either of us will still contract out is tile.  Hate it, hate it with a vengeance.

[Grandpa Shooter]

Additional thoughts:

There is a new type of tile spacers on the market which have a straight bar on one side and a cross on the other to be used when laying out tile.  They are bright neon colors according to size.  I have used the old style of neoprene and trust me, the new ones are great by comparison.  They positively locate the tile for you and are really easy to handle.

When building up the floor of the shower, you will need to have the top of the drain screen slightly below the surface of the tile so you don't have standing water there.  Building up a cement floor 6 x 9 with drainage from all corners and sides is not going to be easy or fun.  Remember to not have too severe a transition in surface or you will have to build up the thinset to compensate (not a good idea).  Best bet is to have your transitions at grout lines so it looks more natural.

Please don't forget to seal the tile and grout with a high grade sealer.  With that big a shower, just get a sponge mop and mop it on.  It will take 3-4 coats to get a really good seal.  When you can spill a drop of water on it and have the water bead, you have enough.  You will need to wipe the haze off when you are done.  It won't be easy, but hey, you wouldn't want it easy would you?

Pay attention also to the lighting for the shower.  I don't know if you have a glass block "window" installed, or have water proof overhead lights, but a shower that big with no lighting will feel like a cave.  Or maybe like a grotto

I would probably reinforce the floor under the shower if I were doing that job.  You haven't said if it is single story or multi level, but that much cement, backer board, and tile is going to be a significant strain on the floor joists and supports.  Won't matter much at first, but you will get sag over time.  (I have to reinforce the floor under my reloading room due to sagging.)

Another tip.  Find some knee pads which have two straps, not one.  Two spreads out the hold and won't cut off the circulation into your lower legs.  Dead legs are not fun to work with.  I have some with fabric over gel pads with soft plastic kneeling caps.  Cost about $35.00 but are the only reason I can still do tile.  I just did a laundry room yesterday and have to go back and grout it if it is dry enough.

About the only thing worse than tile is shingling an A frame.  I have had to tie off on the opposite side I am working on and hang half of an extension ladder down the side I am fixing.  I work alone, so it was not the most fun thing I have done.

[coppertales]

Thanks for all the info guys.  I hope to tile the bathroom floors this fall.  Any tips, and alot said here applies, help.  My shooting bud has done alot of tile so help is close by.  chris3

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

http://www.schluter.com/
they can get kits at home depot  stock the roll underlayment

[Leatherneck]

I've got to tell you that I'm reconsidering doing the shower myself because of the cautions posted here. I'll still do the bath floors and backsplashes and walls where called for, but maybe not the shower floor.

TC

[Grandpa Shooter]

I recently remodeled my best friends house for him so that his elderly parents could live with him.  Part of that was tearing out a tub/shower combo and building a walk-in shower for his parents.  It was in the standard recess, so not as big as yours, and it was on a cement slab.  Far easier than the project you are considering.  It took four days to redo the plumbing and drain, build the enclosure, put on the backer board., pour the pan, set the wall tile, set the floor, grout, seal and install glass door.  I am talking 10 hour days.  I also built in a bench, recesses for soap and shampoo.  His brother in law said he paid $500 just to have the pan done.  Another lady told him she paid $2500 to have one built not nearly as well as his.

You might well consider having a pro do it just so that you can enjoy it and not worry about it.  No, we don't live close enough!

[Leatherneck]

LOL!

No, we don't live close enough!

How did you know?

The project is farther along than you might think: the house is complete and painted on the outside and the inside is ready for drywall--cleaned and 250 4x12 sheets in place with screws, tape and mud staged. The framing under the shower is 2x10s on 12' centers with 3/4" subfloor glued and nailed per code. The shower is framed with treated 2x4s using 16" centers on the walls (by me). The membrane is down. The plumbing rough-in is done and tested and inspected. Shower walls have Blueboard installed with bugle-head screws and will be taped this weekend.

Next step: tile the floor. I'm still not certain, but i think i want to do it myself.

In the meantime, tomorrow, I get to dig up the septic line and repair the leak the phone sub installed in my pressure line, and receive the drywall crew, who plan to hang 250 sheets in one day on Sunday. Incredible. Will report on that, for sure!

TC

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

when you are done can i have your drywall guys name?
consider an angle grinder with a diamond blade for curved cuts.
i've also used a belt sander or a stone to round off and sharp edges left from cuts

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

check oiut the schluter kerdi system its light fast and gives perfect grade to floor  the drain works great too lets you adjust for tile and mortar thickness  and allows for great drainage plus its square so the cuts are easier and it looks "right" with the linear tile  home depot can special order it. if you wanna see some tile laid with the ditra i can show you some i i was skeptical till i used it

[The Annoyed Man]

This thread needs pictures!!!!!

Jim