Author Topic: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)  (Read 1852 times)

Nick1911

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Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« on: December 23, 2008, 03:51:29 PM »
Please excuse my poor MSpaint skills.  Assume the large circle connects, and all inner circles are touching.



Say we have N number of circles with a known radius, r; the circles are themselves arranged in a circle.

Is there a formula to come up with the radius of the circle that forms through their touching points (R)?  Or, perhaps an outer or inner circle?

I'm not very good at math.  =|  I can almost visualize it, but not quite.

Any thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 04:01:25 PM by Nick1911 »

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2008, 04:02:58 PM »
I've used autocad to solve problems like that in the past.  I can't help you with the math, though.

DJJ

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2008, 04:11:45 PM »
What are you doing, figuring out how big a patch you need for your ceiling? :lol:

I am working on it, actually. I've just mentally roughed out a strategy, and I'm going to explore it.

French G.

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2008, 04:14:55 PM »
Anything here help? http://mathworld.wolfram.com/CirclePacking.html I saved this bookmark for some reason, after several gos at Calculus you'd think I'd be better at math.
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2008, 04:33:37 PM »
Please excuse my poor MSpaint skills.  Assume the large circle connects, and all inner circles are touching.

Say we have N number of circles with a known radius, r; the circles are themselves arranged in a circle.

Any thoughts?

Easy.

Referring to your picture,

Circumference of the large circle is 11.
Diameter of each of the 11 small circles is 1.

Since C = diameter*pi, you have:
11/3.14 = D
or
D = 3.5

This assumes their touching points are exactly 1 diameter across on the smaller circles though.  Not sure if it's just your mspaint skills or intent, but your large circle appears to pass slightly inside the 1 diameter point of the smaller circles.
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DJJ

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2008, 04:37:04 PM »
You're right about your assumption, and the tangent points are definitely NOT directly across. If they were, the larger circle would be a straight line, i.e., a circle of infinite diameter.

Zardozimo Oprah Bannedalas

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2008, 04:38:35 PM »
Perimeter = 2PiR = DPi
You could get kinda close by DofCircs*NumCircs/Pi

Wait... Arcs. You have a circle with 10 1" diameter circles on the boundary. Each one encompasses an arc of 36 degrees. You don't know the length of the arc. You know the straight-line boundary-to-boundary measurements of this 36 degree arc.

Using this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_(geometry)

Length of Arc/radius of big circle=36*Pi/180

Now, if you know your triangles well (I don't), you might figure out radius. One angle is 36 degrees, the side opposite that angle is 1".

BrokenPaw

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 04:47:36 PM »
If the outer circles are all equal radius r, and spaced at equal radius from center C, then the points at the centers of the smaller circles  will form a regular n-gon (where n == the number of smaller circles).

Designate two of those adjacent centers C1 and C2.  Designate the center of your big circle C0. 

The angle C1-C0-C2 will be 360/n.  Call that angle A. 

Draw a line from C1 to C2, and its midpoint will be where your smaller circles are tangent.  Designate that point P.

Now you have a triangle C0-C1-P.  The angle P-C0-P1 will be A/2, and C0-P-C1 will be a right angle.

You know that the length of the segment C1-P = r.

Designate the segment C0-P as X.

Tan(A/2) = r/X, therefore:

X=r/Tan(A/2).

Therefore the length of the segment

C0-P = r / (tan((360/n)/2)
       = r / (tan (180/n))


For example:
Four circles of r = 1:  n=4, r=1.
 X= 1/(tan(180/4)
 X=1/(tan(45));
 X= 1/1
 X=1

Five circles of radius 2:  n=5, r=2
X=2/tan(180/5)
X=2/tan(36)
X=2.7528
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DJJ

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 05:01:19 PM »

Nick1911

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 06:12:57 PM »
Wow, thank you BrokenPaw!  That is exactly the kind of help I was looking for!

 =D

BrokenPaw

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Re: Circles! (AKA, Math problem!)
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 06:49:13 PM »
Wow, thank you BrokenPaw!  That is exactly the kind of help I was looking for!

Welcome!

Did I just do your math homework for you?  ;)

-BP
Seek out wisdom in books, rare manuscripts, and cryptic poems if you will, but seek it also in simple stones and fragile herbs and in the cries of wild birds. Listen to the song of the wind and the roar of water if you would discover magic, for it is here that the old secrets are still preserved.