Battery transplant car: Starts great, but now the brakes are shot?

[Snowdog]

Some of you may remember the question I posted concerning the recipient vehicle (Dodge Shadow) of a larger-than-stock battery (from a Grand Wagoneer).  After charging the battery, it works great.  Even better, after treating with Heet before even attempting to start, it appears to be running nice and smooth dispite the 18-24month old gas.

However, the Brake light is on and, of course, it has no brakes.  The master cylinder has plenty of brake fluid and the car never had brake issues when it ran.  I'm not seeing any leaks that may have come from the brake lines, so I wonder what it could be.   The brake pedal goes straight to the floor.
I'm trying to get this gas-sipper back on the road before gas prices creap up and make driving my Blazer feel like a burden.  Unfortunately, I have very basic automotive skills. 

I thought I'd post here since the suggestions I received about putting a larger capacity battery in the smaller Shadow was spot on. 

Does anyone have an idea off-hand what might cause this malfunction?  It has been sitting for over a year, but I don't know if that would somehow allow air to seep into the lines.  Should I go ahead and bleed the lines or might this be a more serious problem. 

Thanks in advance!

[never_retreat]

When you say the pedal goes right to the floor, does it return also or stay?

[Snowdog]

It returns, but there's practically no resistance on the way down.

[Nick1911]

It returns, but there's practically no resistance on the way down.

I had a motorcycle that acted like this when there was air in the master cylinder.

A proper vacuum bleed took care of it.  Standard bleeding was ineffective because of the air in the master cylinder.

[charby]

Have you tried just pumping the heck out of the brakes when idling? I had an s-10 that if it sat for more than a few weeks I'd have to pump the brake peddle a lot to get pressure then it was good to go until it sat for several weeks again.

[Declaration Day]

You should try bleeding the calipers and wheel cylinders first.  There's a good chance you have air in at least one of the lines; it doesn't take much air to render your brakes completely inoperable.  Wheel cylinders have a tendency to leak after a while, much more so than calipers, in my experience. (I've done hundreds of brake jobs.)

You say it's a Dodge Shadow, which makes it at least fifteen years old.  At that age it's a good idea to take a flashlight and inspect the brake lines and connections closely for leaks.  If it hasn't been done before, you should probably replace the soft line at each wheel.

Once all of that is done, if you still have no brake pressure, you may need a brake master cylinder.  That'll be a bit pricey though, so check the easy / cheap stuff first.

[Snowdog]

I haven't tried pumping the brakes yet... I suppose that would be the cheapest fix if it works.  
The Shadow's an '88 that was purchased when gas prices were peaking over $4 a gallon. It gets around 35MPG and zips around like a go-cart (though it just might feel that way to me since I usually drive a much larger Blazer).  It looks garage kept and seems like it has a lot of life left in it (around 70K miles currently on the odometer). I kick myself for not caring for it as I should have lately. 
I priced master cylinders at Ebay motors (where I bought most my stuff for the Virago) and found a couple new old-stock or reman for undr $50, so I guess it could be worse if it comes down to that... I hope not though.  Off to pump the brakes I go.

EDIT:  Nope, pumping the brakes just makes and air sound with no difference in feel. 

[Sergeant Bob]

Hah! See what happens when you don't use Union Madeâ„¢ factory approved batteries?

Master cylinder (Union Madeâ„¢) of course.

Huh?

He hasn't bought a replacement master cylinder yet, union-made or otherwise.

Although, his union-made OEM master cylinder is indeed suspect.

You jumped the shark a wee bit.

What are you talking about?

[Gewehr98]

Huh?

He hasn't bought a replacement master cylinder yet, union-made or otherwise.

Although, his union-made OEM master cylinder is indeed suspect.

You jumped the shark a wee bit.

[Nick1911]

Although, his union-made OEM master cylinder is indeed suspect.

Ha!  His seals in his 21 year old hydraulic part may have failed.  Clearly a manufacturers defect.

 

[Leatherneck]

The brake pedal goes straight to the floor.

This always means one of two things:
1. Master cylinder shot. Replace it.
2. Massive leak in brake line somewhere. Look for fluid under vehicle--it will be apparent.

TC

[mfree]

I'm well familiar with Shadows since I keep buying them as cheap runabouts.... simple, cheap, easy to fix.

The braking system is effective but does NOR like sitting around.

See if there's brake fluid coming out of the rear drums. On these cars when the rear brakes get old, the seals will stick in the slave cylinder bore... the first one to budge gets shoved out of the cylinder altogether.

I do however suspect your master cylinder is bad. Rockauto.com has A1 Cardone rebuilds (which are fine, seals go bad without scratching up bore, etc.) for ~$20, local parts stores are probably going to be around $35.

Did I mention the cheap fix part? If it's the slave cylinders you're gonna love the $5 rebuild kits :)

[richyoung]

Modern hydraulic brake systems are divided into two parts - that way, if one side fails, the other side will still (eventually, takes longer...) stop the car.  The brake warning light comes on under two conditions, normally - 1) if the parking brake is on, or 2) if the pressure in one side of the hydraulic brake system is higher than the pressure in the other side, (only possible if one side is leaking).  Assuming there is adequate fluid in the system to begin with, pump the brake pedal many times.  Is the level in the brake resevoir going down?  If yes, the fluid HAS to be going somewhere, probably to one of the wheels - look for the puddle of fluid on the ground, and follow it back to the leak.  If the level ISN'T going down, you have an internal failure of the master cylinder - rebuild or replace.

[Snowdog]

Ok, well I suppose the I'll just buy a master cylinder... it's $30 (pumping the brakes didn't change the fluid level and there's no leak I can find).
Being that I bought this little car for $300 and putting 10K trouble-free miles on it, I will decline from complaining.  It really pulled through when I used it nearly exclusively during the $4/gallon days and I swear the Shadow was build with easy oil-changes in mind! 
Heck, it even came with 4 studded tires for winter driving (I keep one in the back for use as a spare) and the air is still ice-cold.   

I also must say I find hatchbacks useful.   

Thanks for the info folks!  I'll Ebay a master cylinder tonight.

[BReilley]

Totally unrelated, but consider having a timing belt done, if it hasn't been done before.  70k isn't a lot of miles, but twenty years is a long time.

You did check for obvious leaks, right?  Pull each wheel and check behind the rear drums and at the front calipers and flexible hoses?  Common weak spots have already been mentioned here, but nobody's mentioned this test: check for fluid leaking around the rear of the brake master cylinder.  You may see a leak or just fluid damage to the paint(brake fluid eats paint like nobody's business) below the brake booster, or maybe even on the firewall(inside the cab) below the rod that links the brake pedal with the cylinder.

Let us know...

- Ben

[Nick1911]

Totally unrelated, but consider having a timing belt done, if it hasn't been done before.  70k isn't a lot of miles, but twenty years is a long time.

OT - but did these have interference engines?

[Sergeant Bob]

OT - but did these have interference engines?

What is an interference engine? I'm assuming you mean an engine in which the valves will contact the pistons if it is cranked out of time?

I had an '84 Chrysler Laser which thew a timing belt at about 70 mph and there was no damage to engine at all. The only damage was to my wallet.

[Nick1911]

What is an interference engine? I'm assuming you mean an engine in which the valves will contact the pistons if it is cranked out of time?

I had an '84 Chrysler Laser which thew a timing belt at about 70 mph and there was no damage to engine at all. The only damage was to my wallet.

Yea, and interference engine will have a valve-piston collision if the timing gets off.

I have a 1992 Eagle Talon that broke a timing belt.  I found an intake valve in the oil pan. 

[mfree]

No, Chrysler 2.2 and 2.5 engines are fully non-interfering. I've personally even tried to light one off with the cam timing a few tens of degrees off... stupid pulley marking system doesn't have a decent reference.

I've driven one ~80 miles on the interstate with a fully lunched coolant section of the head gasket by stopping every 10 miles or so to bleed the gasses out of the radiator. I nursed one several miles across town to get to work after it tossed the belt at my bank, by shutting it off and coasting. I lit one on fire accidentally with no real damage. Hacked up the EGR system in one when the pipe cracked, so it wasn't "chuffing", 'cause I couldn't reach under it.  Accidentally got it into 2'nd gear at 70 on the interstate once (er, cable endson the shifter were shot, I fixed them the next day).

Heck, I rallycrossed one.... bumping across a field at 45mph.

As long as they don't rust, those cars are damned near indestructable.