Author Topic: Pontiac issue  (Read 4016 times)

Nick1911

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Pontiac issue
« on: June 07, 2009, 11:48:35 PM »
Okay; One of my very good friends is going through some hard times right now with a divorce and some financial troubles, and is having an issue with his car.  I've volunteered to take a look at it because I know he can't afford to have an actual shop do it.  I don't usually do this kind of work for other people - least not for free!

The car in question is a 1999 Pontiac Grand Am, 4 door, 120k miles, 3.4L V6.

When he gets up to highway speeds, the RPM gauge will fluctuate wildly (0-4k), the engine runs like crap and wants to stall, and the transmission hunts for a gear.  This only ever happens at 60+mph.  Once while this was happening, he mashed it - and the car stalled.  This problem doesn't always happen, but has been increasing in frequency.

My first thought was a crank position sensor.  Turns out there are two.  I got both from the scrap yard, installed the one which I though most likely to have failed.  No go.  Haven't had time to install the other one yet.

What else could cause this kind of problem?  I am correct in my assumption that this is a crank sensor issue, right?

Thanks!

RocketMan

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2009, 01:01:15 AM »
Quote
Once while this was happening, he mashed it - and the car stalled.

As in mashing the accelerator?
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Northwoods

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2009, 02:00:27 AM »
Sounds like it's the radiator cap.  Try pulling it off and putting a new car underneath it.
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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2009, 02:10:56 AM »
I'm assuming you already changed the plugs, and wires, right?

My wife had one of these things, it's a big piece of horse hockey.  Do your best so he can save for a better car.  We'll help however we can :D
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mfree

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2009, 02:29:25 AM »
You're going to spend a fortune if you chase after a problem like this with parts.

Go somewhere and have them read the computer codes for you.

I bet you're going to find a leaky plug cable, a bad ground, a seriously ill coil pack, or something wrong with the tach sense circuit. Still get codes... it'll tell you what's wrong if you let it.

mejeepnut

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2009, 02:39:38 AM »
I am correct in my assumption that this is a crank sensor issue, right?

Yes unless it's not!
I think there are several different auto parts stores that will plug a puter into the car to see whats going on for free,try that.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2009, 07:25:11 AM »
My first thought was a crank position sensor.  Turns out there are two.  I got both from the scrap yard, installed the one which I though most likely to have failed.  No go.  Haven't had time to install the other one yet.

What else could cause this kind of problem?  I am correct in my assumption that this is a crank sensor issue, right?

Ignition module (that which we olde phartes persist in calling by the archaic name "coil").

Is the check engine light coming on? I would expect a situation in which the ignition is cutting out (which is what's happening if the tachometer is dropping its signal) to throw a code that you can read with an OBD-II scan reader.

Have you checked the catalytic converter? A clogged cat causes loss of power at higher RPM. Newer cars (I think) have dual oxygen sensors, one upstream of the cat and one downstream. I don't know what happens if the cat gets clogged, but maybe it can play games with the spark.
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charby

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2009, 08:01:15 AM »
Just guessing I'd think its the coil pack or whatever the equalivilant is.
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dogmush

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2009, 08:33:49 AM »
Hawkmoon and Charby are probably on the right track.  A weak ignition can cause the symptoms you're describing.

If I recall correctlly a misfire is not a "hard fault" in that the MIL won't stay on.  It should flash 3 times while the car is missing then go out.  The fault codes should still be in memory though, so if you hit up the parts store and run the codes you should get multiple misfire codes.

If that's it, do plugs, wires, and coilpack(s) and it should clear up.  If other codes, post those.

You could also go old school and pull the plugs to inspect them.  the color of the plugs is often an indicator of what's going on in there.

charby

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2009, 09:25:49 AM »
You could also go old school and pull the plugs to inspect them.  the color of the plugs is often an indicator of what's going on in there.

Nick here is a nifty link that shows a chart on deciphering the color of the plugs.

http://www.dansmc.com/spark_plugs/spark_plugs_catalog.html

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KPT

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 10:47:41 PM »
There is a TSB from Oct 99 concerning an intermittent hesitation or lack of power. Says the knock sensor was interpreting normal engine harmonics as knock. There was a PCM reprogram to fix that, probably not the issue though.

Another TSB from Aug 2005 stresses checking all harnesses and plugs when there is an intermittent issue.

Nick1911

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2009, 12:06:06 AM »
I installed the other crank position sensor as well as the output vehicle speed sensor.

Problem resolved!  Total cost: about $25.

Nick1911

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2009, 12:17:49 AM »
You're going to spend a fortune if you chase after a problem like this with parts.

Go somewhere and have them read the computer codes for you.

I bet you're going to find a leaky plug cable, a bad ground, a seriously ill coil pack, or something wrong with the tach sense circuit. Still get codes... it'll tell you what's wrong if you let it.

While trying to figure out what had failed, I tired this approach.  No codes were in the computer to be read.  =(

Thor

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2009, 12:27:12 PM »
If there are no codes, I might be convinced to take a hard look at the ECM.
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never_retreat

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2009, 10:18:27 PM »
Sounds like it's the radiator cap.  Try pulling it off and putting a new car underneath it.
Wow I've had this work for me, I never knew anyone else used this technique.
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RocketMan

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2009, 02:23:54 PM »
Sounds like it's the radiator cap.  Try pulling it off and putting a new car underneath it.

I'm not much for shotgunning parts, but sometimes you gotta do whatcha gotta do.  =D
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mfree

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2009, 09:39:56 AM »
"I might be convinced to take a hard look at the ECM. "

Not since the OBD revolution (which is actually has little to do with).

That happened right around the advent of the move from through-hole to surface mount components, and the rapid influx of dirt-cheap custom chips and common components. Rarely do ECU's fail since, oh, 1995 or so.

Only one I've ever had fail on me in any way was my '91 shadow "racing" car, and that had suffered electrical mishaps in the past, one unknown short when my then-fiancee borrowed it in an emergency, right after the weight-stripping that removed the dashboard. I hadn't insulated the ignition switch yet , which was a modular single component, and her nice metal keychain made a circuit from ground at the tumbler to an still-unknown circuit with enough amperage behind it to "try to kill her" in her words, and she's technical and not prone to exaggeration. She said it blasted sparks all over the interior of the car and it burnt off a corner of the offending key. A few months after that I had to drive it on a regular basis after totalling my regular car, and ended up field-replacing some of the fusible links as the car was simply dying at random, no codes, but I caught it once when I had a voltmeter handy and figured it out. Then the FPR relay quit, which was on one of the circuits the bad link was on, and a couple more months after that the car simply just up and quit. THAT was the ECU. I pulled it apart and got another off ebay for $50; Chrysler's potting of that era was pretty much transparent, and thanks to the turbo dodge groups' more technical members, someone had an engineering schematic and the one torched resistor I found was on the Injector active circuit with the FRP relay activation hung off it on a filter.

After that the car ran great, but I had little use for it anymore so sold it to a guy who (supposedly) made a circle track racer of it. Wait, wow, what a tangent.

The most common causes of "old" ECU death were corrosion and bad grounds. Corrosion is obvious, but bad grounds can cause elevated current in wierd places and even modern ECUs may have trouble with that. Sucks to be an ECU when a rusty ground causes the alternator to try and energize itself through the return for the throttle position sensor or whatever else has a connection and a better ground.

That, and a handful of TFI modules for my '84 Tbird were the only "bad electronics packages" issues I've had yet
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Nick1911

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2009, 10:11:03 AM »
The Talon's ECU had a capacitor leak, and the dielectric ate a trace off the board.  :|

It caused the A/C to not work properly.  Naturally, I soldered in a bypass wire.  :angel:

geronimotwo

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Re: Pontiac issue
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2009, 04:01:14 PM »
Quote from: KPT

Another TSB from Aug 2005 stresses checking all harnesses and plugs when there is an intermittent issue.
[/quote

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