Author Topic: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?  (Read 8072 times)

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,916
  • A more Elegant Monkey for a more civilized Forum.
TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« on: December 31, 2009, 12:44:38 AM »
TSA has Special Agents that serve subpoenas?  When did this happen?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34636278/ns/us_news-airliner_attack/



WASHINGTON - As the government reviews how an alleged terrorist was able to bring a bomb onto a U.S.-bound plane and try to blow it up on Christmas Day, the Transportation Security Administration is going after bloggers who wrote about a directive to increase security after the incident.

TSA special agents served subpoenas to travel bloggers Steve Frischling and Chris Elliott, demanding that they reveal who leaked the security directive to them. The government says the directive was not supposed to be disclosed to the public. (Elliott is a regular contributor to msnbc.com.)

Frischling said he met with two TSA special agents Tuesday night at his Connecticut home for about three hours and again on Wednesday morning when he was forced to hand over his lap top computer. Frischling said the agents threatened to interfere with his contract to write a blog for KLM Royal Dutch Airlines if he didn't cooperate and provide the name of the person who leaked the memo.

‘Showed up in my box’
"It literally showed up in my box," Frischling told The Associated Press. "I do not know who it came from." He said he provided the agents a signed statement to that effect.

In a Dec. 29 posting on his blog, Elliott said he had told the TSA agents at his house that he would call his lawyer and get back to them. Elliott did not immediately respond to an e-mail seeking comment.

The TSA declined to say how many people were subpoenaed.

The directive was dated Dec. 25 and was issued after a 23-year-old Nigerian man was charged with attempting to bomb a Northwest Airlines flight as it approached Detroit from Amsterdam. The bomb, which allegedly was hidden in Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab's underwear, malfunctioned and no one was killed. Authorities said the device included a syringe and a condom-like bag filled with powder that the FBI determined to be PETN, a common explosive.

Near-miss attack
The near-miss attack has prompted President Barack Obama to order a review of what intelligence information the government had about Abdulmutallab and why it wasn't shared with the appropriate agencies. He also ordered a review of U.S. aviation security. The government has spent billions of dollars and undergone massive reorganizations since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

The TSA directive outlined new screening measures that went into effect the same day as the airliner incident. It included many procedures that would be apparent to the traveling public, such as screening at boarding gates, patting down the upper legs and torso, physically inspecting all travelers' belongings, looking carefully at syringes with powders and liquids, requiring that passengers remain in their seats one hour before landing, and disabling all onboard communications systems, including what is provided by the airline.

It also listed people who would be exempted from these screening procedures such as heads of state and their families.

This is the second time in a month that the TSA has found some of its sensitive airline security documents on the Internet.

“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

taurusowner

  • Guest
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2009, 01:02:33 AM »
I was not aware Thousands Standing Around had any law enforcement authority whatsoever.

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,980
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2009, 07:37:10 AM »
After watching them operate on my last business trip down to Ontario, CA., I wonder why they exist at all?  They must be the most useless agency in the US government.  I could have taken a Sherman tank aboard my return flight from Ontario, and I doubt they would have noticed.  They were too busy horsing around to be effective as security agents.
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47,714
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2009, 10:10:24 AM »
I didn't know they had LEOs either, but if the article is accurate, "Special Agent" means a Federal LEO who went through FLETC. Not sure why they would need them since there are Air Marshals.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2009, 10:18:58 AM »
The Libray of Congress has Special Agents.  They are still fighting to get their authorization to carry handguns restored.

If it's a federal agency it has Special Agents so that it can inforce its rules.

I am more curious as to whether or not TSA SAs are authorized to carry firearms and/or tasers.

For the lawyerly out there -- why in the world would anyone show up at a person's doorstep with a subpeona for a document that said person maybe shoulds not be in possession of?  A subpeona is a court order to compel a person to appear in court, or if it is a subpeona duces tecum to compel the production of an item in court.  Serve me the subpeona, get my signature, and get off my lawn.  I'll see you in court or have my attorney try to quash it.  There is no way you are walking away with anything of mine after serving a subpeona.

For some reason I doubt that Mr. Frishling and Mr. Elliott do not know the subtle differences between a subpeona and a warrant.  Even if they do not, someone at MSNBC might know the difference.  "Frischling said he met with two TSA special agents Tuesday night at his Connecticut home for about three hours and again on Wednesday morning when he was forced to hand over his lap top computer." makes me think the TSA SAs returned the next morning with a warrant,

This "Frischling said the agents threatened to interfere with his contract to write a blog for KLM Royal Dutch Airlines if he didn't cooperate and provide the name of the person who leaked the memo makes me hope that Mr. Frishling will be filing a 42 USC 1983 lawsuit.  That is jackbooted thuggery and it should be nipped in the bud.

At this point the only good thing I can say about TSA is that there does not seem to be a 17% federal entertainment tax being collected when you purchase an airline ticket.  Of course, that tax could be hidden amonst all the other charges added to the base price - perhaps right after the $0.12 resources recovery fee for collecting the aluminum soda can you may or may not (but probably will, even if it does cost $5.00) consume.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2009, 11:35:14 AM »
Frischling said he met with two TSA special agents Tuesday night at his Connecticut home for about three hours and again on Wednesday morning when he was forced to hand over his lap top computer. Frischling said the agents threatened to interfere with his contract to write a blog for KLM Royal Dutch Airlines if he didn't cooperate and provide the name of the person who leaked the memo.

Ok, FIRST.   I am not a lawyer so maybe someone can beat some sense into me.  But I thought a subpoena was an order to show up at court to testify or bring evidence.  

- subpoena ad testificandum orders a person to testify before the ordering authority or face punishment.
- subpoena duces tecum orders a person to bring physical evidence before the ordering authority or face punishment.

Don't you need a warrant to seize a laptop in this situation?   How much you wanna bet the TSA were acting as process servers, waved court paperwork under the guy's nose, made some vaguely threatening (but completely unenforceable) remarks and got him to spill everything?  Including voluntarily and unnecessarily handing over personal property.  

This is why you should always have the number of a good lawyer.  

Second, wonder if you could sue the TSA guys for threatening your employment...  


Quote
In a Dec. 29 posting on his blog, Elliott said he had told the TSA agents at his house that he would call his lawyer and get back to them. Elliott did not immediately respond to an e-mail seeking comment.

DING!  TSA managed to intimidate Frischling.  Elliott appears to be somewhat smarter and probably said "Thanks for the subpoena.  Now go away."


Quote
The Library of Congress has Special Agents.  They are still fighting to get their authorization to carry handguns restored.

I knew I should have returned those books when the librarians said I should.   =|
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2009, 12:00:31 PM »
Considering the EPA, Dept. of the Interior/National Park Service, BLM, all sorts of fed.gov agencies people would normally think have no "law enforcement" mandate (or at least a no-knock raid SWAT-type one) made a switch to having armed "officers" starting in the 90's... having roving TSA "special agents" who at least have a security and anti-terrorism mandate almost makes sense.
I promise not to duck.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2009, 12:05:50 PM »
Considering the EPA, Dept. of the Interior/National Park Service, BLM, all sorts of fed.gov agencies people would normally think have no "law enforcement" mandate (or at least a no-knock raid SWAT-type one) made a switch to having armed "officers" starting in the 90's... having roving TSA "special agents" who at least have a security and anti-terrorism mandate almost makes sense.

At airports or ports, fine.  Off airports or ports?  Not fine.  Send the FBI, they're real LE. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

AJ Dual

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,162
  • Shoe Ballistics Inc.
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 12:08:14 PM »
At airports or ports, fine.  Off airports or ports?  Not fine.  Send the FBI, they're real LE. 

Exactly. Or if the need is truly that great, have an expanded pool of U.S. Marshalls or whatnot who then does TDY with the various non LE-agencies when they do have a real LE need. (And have that group act as a check and balance in terms of tactics to use, is there a warrant etc.)
I promise not to duck.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 12:30:51 PM »
Exactly. Or if the need is truly that great, have an expanded pool of U.S. Marshalls or whatnot who then does TDY with the various non LE-agencies when they do have a real LE need. (And have that group act as a check and balance in terms of tactics to use, is there a warrant etc.)

I'd be surprised if they didn't have something similar already.  If not cross-govt, than between individual agencies.



After reading the article and reviewing what I remember of government service, I think I figured it out.

TSA brass are pissed that their super-secret regulations were leaked.  While most of it is pretty straightforward and logical, it's embarrassing.  One, because it leaked.  Two, TSA are not treated with too much respect by the population or by real LE agencies. Three, they try to look "cooler" by trying to keep as much as possible "secret".  Because in the govt world, you get respect by being the most professional or the most secret squirrel.  TSA can't win in the professional aspect, so they try to make everything super secret squirrel.  Secret no fly lists, secret procedures, secret master keys for luggage, etc.

They're just trying to rebuild their super secret squirrel status and prevent future really mundane 'secret' documents from leaking.  But...  They're not really LE so they can't send a SWAT team to do a really cool dynamic entry, or hauling the guy to a nifty interrogation room, or other really "cool" method of intimidation.

So, they have a lawyer type up a subpoena or get a court clerk to type one up (subpoena are NOT warrants, they just tell you to show up at court or else, they cannot really infringe on your rights in any real way).  They send two or so of their more slick "Special Agents" to act as process servers.  Instead of saying "Oy, here's a subpoena to show up on Monday at Court.  See ya then.", they try to be secret squirrel.  Lay down some intimidation because they don't have a leg to stand on.

See, the SOP is NOT classified.  It's most likely FOUO, which is an FOIA handling criteria and has no legal penalty for unauthorized dissemination.  Sometimes folks try to be slick and mark it LE/FOUO, which again means legally nothing except for FOIA requests.  If you're an employee and you broke your agency's policies, you can get nailed for failing to follow policy.  Same as looking for porn on a govt PC.  Jail time?  Not unless some other law comes into play (disclosing SSN #'s or health patient info, or whatever).

They probably waved an official looking letter on court letterhead (which is standard) and said some variation of "Boy, did you screw up...  Big time.  Unless you start cooperating, you're gonna be in lots of trouble".  Which is complete bunk and only works if the mark is a complete idiot.   One was, and crumbled like a cheap beer can.  The other was not, and probably accepted the subpoena and slammed the door in their face.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Ben

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47,714
  • I'm an Extremist!
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2009, 12:41:49 PM »
Quote
They're just trying to rebuild their super secret squirrel status and prevent future really mundane 'secret' documents from leaking.  But...  They're not really LE so they can't send a SWAT team to do a really cool dynamic entry, or hauling the guy to a nifty interrogation room, or other really "cool" method of intimidation.

Unfortunately with some of these agencies that aren't "fulltime" LE agencies as it were, they really WANT to be SWAT-like, more so than agencies like the FBI, that do it for a living.

Glaring example local to me that happened in 1997:

http://prfamerica.org/speeches/4th/SantaCruz.html

The above is from an attorney representing the landowner, but Googling will give many corroborating stories. The whole Blackhawk helo / ski masked assault force thing was quite the black eye to NPS and is still brought up locally a lot.

Also I think Revdisk hit the nail on the head with his assessment.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Levant

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 561
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2010, 03:01:23 PM »
Quote
Frischling said he met with two TSA special agents Tuesday night at his Connecticut home for about three hours and again on Wednesday morning when he was forced to hand over his lap top computer.

How can a member of the press be so stupid as to hand over his laptop, warrant or no warrant?  Any warrant for the laptop of a member of the press to investigate sources or his work as a member of the press would be an illegal warrant.  Gone are the days when we had a press that would go to jail in contempt in order to protect their sources and their right to report on the evils in government.

There is a lot of information on a typical laptop that would not at all relate to the investigation going on by the TSA.  And the existence of the investigation proves that the TSA cannot protect that information or use it in a responsible manner.

I guess the lesson here is that if you get a first visit from the police about any investigation, get a lawyer immediately - before tomorrow.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 03:17:52 PM by Levant »
NEOKShooter on GRM
Republicans: The other Democratic Party

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,274
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2010, 03:39:42 PM »
Seems to be yet another argument for all data to be on external HDs, nestled all snug in their bed of thermite and magnesium. Give 'em the ashes in a baggie.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

RocketMan

  • Mad Rocket Scientist
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,980
  • Semper Fidelis
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2010, 03:51:11 PM »
The TSA "ends journalist subpoenas over leaked memo".  The story is here.
The whole thing should never have happened in the first place.  A very serious overstepping of authority on the TSA's part.  Some heads should be teetering precariously right now.

Any bets on the one journalist getting his laptop back?
 
 
If there really was intelligent life on other planets, we'd be sending them foreign aid.

Conservatives see George Orwell's "1984" as a cautionary tale.  Progressives view it as a "how to" manual.

My wife often says to me, "You are evil and must be destroyed." She may be right.

Liberals believe one should never let reason, logic and facts get in the way of a good emotional argument.

PTK

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,318
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2010, 05:12:32 PM »
Quote
The TSA directive outlined new screening measures that went into effect the same day as the airliner incident at Detroit. It included many procedures that would be apparent to the traveling public, such as screening at boarding gates, patting down the upper legs and torso, physically inspecting all travelers' belongings, looking carefully at syringes with powders and liquids, requiring that passengers remain in their seats one hour before landing, and disabling all onboard communications systems, including what is provided by the airline.

Security theater is going to put airlines permanently out of business.  =|
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,776
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2010, 07:50:03 PM »
I was not aware Thousands Standing Around had any law enforcement authority whatsoever.

Delivering subpoenas is not a law enforcement action, it is an extension of the judicial branch. Subpoenas are issued to compel appearance in court. I wonder if the author of this article doesn't know the difference between a subpoena and a warrant -- of if the TSA doesn't know the difference and called it a subpoena when it was a search warrant. I don't think a subpoena would give them any right to kidnap his computer.

[Edit]I know others beat me to it, but I had to add my 1.3 cents worth. And what the heck is an "administrative subpoena" if it isn't issued in connection with an appearance in court? I have in the past received a subpoena to appear at a deposition, but a deposition occurs after a case has been filed with the court, and it's part of the pre-trial discovery process.

This makes no sense at all. But, we are discussing the TSA, so I apologize for being redundant.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 07:59:15 PM by Hawkmoon »
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2010, 09:01:35 PM »
Any bets on the one journalist getting his laptop back?

He got it back already.  Broken.  And now it has to be extensively checked for bugs or viruses.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,916
  • A more Elegant Monkey for a more civilized Forum.
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2010, 11:24:15 AM »
Yes I know the difference. Was just wanting discussion on why the TSA would be involved in serving either.
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Leatherneck

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,028
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2010, 09:10:46 AM »
Two people who ride with me work in the legal department of TSA headquarters. They have at last count 120+ attorneys. Morale is low, leadership non-existent, and the only agency that is more systematically screwed up is their parent agency, DHS.

Any wonder we see regular screwups by people in the field?

TC
TC
RT Refugee

French G.

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10,274
  • ohhh sparkles!
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2010, 02:46:00 PM »
In my experience with foreign airport security TSA is the least professional and attentive group I've ever seen. The best so far was in Athens, Greece, AKA terrorist central. They pulled my bag and questioned me because of a suspicious scan. The culprit was a 2,000 page paperback book that the machine was looking at edge on. Made a nice rectangular impenetrable image. They were polite and professional. TSA agents usually look the part of those who got denied entrance to the military and/or McDonald's.

My favorite this trip? No one wanted to see my wife's curling iron in my carry-on. Lets see, cylindrical metal object, wires wrapped around it, more wires probably visible inside the plastic part. That and my kubaton, inadvertently left some piece of Mercedes kit in my pocket from changing my flat tire. 6" long knurled aluminum stick. No questions. But you want to run a test on my 2 year old's sippy cup to make sure it is in fact 2 ounces of water? Check.

I will say one nice thing and quit. TSA workers are obviously products of the local labor-pool. The ones in Atlanta and the mid-west were pretty easy to get along with. From past experience, I wouldn't give a sack of day old cat poop for the clowns that work at th DC or New York airports.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 17,037
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2010, 03:24:19 PM »
Thing is, not everyone can keep up with all the alphabet agencies we've got, or figuring out what the limits of their jurisdiction are.

Sure, if someone knocks on your door and holds up an ID saying "FBI" you know who they are. Same with State Troopers, your uniformed local police, and maybe a few more agencies.

But if someone says "TSA" and you're not a frequent flyer, you might wonder "Who the HECK are these guys, and why should I open my door to them?" (Or even if you've heard of them, you might wonder the same, if you're at home and not going through screening at that moment.)

I can see something bad happening if this trend continues.  =(
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,776
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2010, 10:31:53 PM »
But if someone says "TSA" and you're not a frequent flyer,

"NO THANKS -- I GAVE AT THE OFFICE!" (Spoken through the door.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: TSA Special Agents? Serving subpoenas?
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2010, 11:45:52 AM »
Opening the door to strangers is always a bad idea  =(
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin