Author Topic: NY Terror Trials  (Read 9648 times)

De Selby

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2010, 06:36:32 AM »
So prisoners in US federal penitentiaries are treated worse than that? Or are the conditions at Guantanamo not better than US penitentiaries?

Uh, last I checked, prisoners in US federal penitentiaries are not intentionally subjected to sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, extreme noises for long periods of time, shackled in stress positions for long periods of time, or waterboarded.  All of those things occur at the Guantanamo and Bagram prisons.

Whether you want to call those treatments worse than a US federal prison is up to you and depends heavily on your definition of worse.  But for the purposes of this discussion, those things: a) do not happen in US territorial prisons and B) have been proven to result in mental illness.
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Gowen

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2010, 07:08:04 AM »
Uh, last I checked, prisoners in US federal penitentiaries are not intentionally subjected to sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, extreme noises for long periods of time, shackled in stress positions for long periods of time, or waterboarded.  All of those things occur at the Guantanamo and Bagram prisons.

Whether you want to call those treatments worse than a US federal prison is up to you and depends heavily on your definition of worse.  But for the purposes of this discussion, those things: a) do not happen in US territorial prisons and B) have been proven to result in mental illness.


You have to admit that this is infinitely better treatment than what a US soldier would receive if he/she were captured.
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De Selby

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2010, 07:33:51 AM »
You have to admit that this is infinitely better treatment than what a US soldier would receive if he/she were captured.

It is, but that doesn't make it alright.  It's not very reassuring when we're reduced to the point of saying "yeah, well at least our methods only cause death and severe mental illness; theirs always result in death."

Again though, this isn't really a debate about right or wrong.  I'm pointing out that this woman behaving like a psycho in the courtroom and even during the crime she's being tried for are both things that would be consistent with having suffered the range of things that are known to happen in Bagram and Guantanamo.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2010, 07:50:21 AM »
This thread has officially been SS'd.  Classic.  We've gone from discussing jury tampering to the ills of prisoner mistreatment, the tie being that of course we caused this woman to be a jihadi freak who's trying to tamper with the jury out of insanity, of course.

I'm siding with HTG (did hell just freeze?).  Intentional behavior to get her out of spending the rest of her life in a prison.
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De Selby

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2010, 07:57:57 AM »
This thread has officially been SS'd.  Classic.  We've gone from discussing jury tampering to the ills of prisoner mistreatment, the tie being that of course we caused this woman to be a jihadi freak who's trying to tamper with the jury out of insanity, of course.

I'm siding with HTG (did hell just freeze?).  Intentional behavior to get her out of spending the rest of her life in a prison.


In fairness here, I'm trying not to get into a discussion about the rightness or wrongness of prisoner mistreatment - that is truly for another thread.

You think this behavior is intentional, and I raised the mistreatment as an alternative explanation for it.  I don't see any good reason to deny that it's at least possible that she's in fact mentally ill as a result of years of detention. Maybe you don't think it's likely, but it's certainly possible.

I also don't see it as a particularly radical or surprising theory to come up with.  If we're searching for an answer, that's the obvious counter-point to "she's planned this as part of her jihad."

Another troubling aspect of the theory that she's doing this intentionally is that it presumes she is in fact a jihadist.  Has anyone seen any evidence that this is actually the case?  

A lack of evidence that she was an al qaeda operative would tend to support the conclusion that she's genuinely mentally ill, imo.


Edit: Just another point that might be taken into consideration here on the insanity defense.  Playing insane to get out of a crime is quite possibly the worst defense available, as the standard for insanity is so high that it is literally almost never met by any defendant, even people with proven mental illnesses.   So if she's planned this, whoever advised her was doing so based on the movies, where people do get acquitted by reason of insanity, and not based on real life, where it virtually never happens.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 08:01:30 AM by shootinstudent »
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Monkeyleg

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2010, 10:41:49 AM »
Folks, I think SS has found the solution to the Israel/Palestinian conflict. Instead of Israel bombing Hamas targets, they can send in shrinks.

"Abdul, tell me about your childhood. Do you think that you're trying to get the approval your father never showed you by strapping explosives to yourself? Were you breast-fed by your mother?"

Bad enough we now have to litigate war. Perhaps our lady terrorist could get Major Hasan to testify as to her psychological condition.

MicroBalrog

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2010, 12:10:58 PM »
Israel litigates war.

We allow terrorist suspects the benefit of attorneys, the insanity defense, etc. Our soldiers are entitled to disobey illegal orders, and the Supreme Court has full review of the government's policy towards said suspects.

What you are suggesting is that America should descend below our level.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2010, 12:26:35 PM »
Israel does not treat warfighters as petty criminals.

MicroBalrog

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2010, 12:35:31 PM »
Israel does not treat warfighters as petty criminals.

No, we treat them as suspects. We provide attorneys and we conduct trials.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2010, 01:50:45 PM »
Not the same attorneys or courts that petty criminals get.  Unless things have changed since I last looked into it, Israel puts terrorists through a military judicial system that is separate from the civilian criminal courts.

MicroBalrog

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2010, 02:02:55 PM »
Not the same attorneys or courts that petty criminals get.  Unless things have changed since I last looked into it, Israel puts terrorists through a military judicial system that is separate from the civilian criminal courts.

The attorneys are perfectly the same attorneys. They come from the public defender's office.

And it depends. Some of the terrorists get perfectly civilian trials, like the guys who murdered Danny Katz (these were some pretty special dirtbags).
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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roo_ster

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2010, 05:59:30 PM »
All SS's water-muddying aside, she is just doing what a slimeball AQ terrorist is trained to do: make a mockery and spectacle and use our system of justice against us.

No, I think Micro summed up my argument pretty well - sleep deprivation, sensory deprivation, long periods of exposure to high decibel noises, and water boarding are all very well known to cause severe mental illness.

I think I'll apply SS's "shifting standard" to this one:
Quote from: SS in a later post
How do we even know she had any terrorist cohorts, terrorist training, or involvement in terrorism?such treatment?

According to the docs, three folks were waterboarded and she wasn't one of them.  How do we know she had any such treatment?

jfruser, so who decided she did something that warrants being shot out of hand?  How did we all arrive at the conclusion that this person is actually a terrorist?

She was an unlawful combat and tried to commit murder. 

If we really want to hew close to the whole civilian trial deal, she shot CPT Snyder in Kabul.  Let the Afghans have their way with her after a wink & a nudge.  At that point, I suspect she might wish for a military tribunal.
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2010, 07:16:30 PM »
The attorneys are perfectly the same attorneys. They come from the public defender's office.

And it depends. Some of the terrorists get perfectly civilian trials, like the guys who murdered Danny Katz (these were some pretty special dirtbags).
Don't know anything about Danny Katz.  Wikipedia mentions some Australian columnist, google mentions a musician, none seem to have any connection to terrorism or the Israeli judicial systems.

Otherwise, can we agree that, in general, Israel has different legal procedures for petty criminals and for serious terrorists?

MicroBalrog

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2010, 07:24:58 PM »
Dani Katz [not sure how to properly Anglicize the setting] was a young kid murdered and raped by a group of Palestinian terrorists (in that specific order). They received a formal trial, after which they claimed they were tortured to confess, and received an appeal, at which their claims of torture were disproven by the prosecutor.

Here's what Google brought home: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=547245

Another man receiving a civilian trial and conviction was Samir Kuntar, famous for his murder of a police officer, a homeowner, and two children, aged 2 and 4.
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

De Selby

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2010, 01:32:28 AM »
jfruser, I'll ask again:  How do you know she is an al qaeda affiliate/operative?  Where along the line did that get proven, or even formally alleged?  She hasn't been charged with it, yet somehow we skipped any questioning of that fact and ended up concluding that she's an al qaeda terrorist.

I'd like to see how that conclusion was reached by you, and upon what facts you relied.

Now, as for her detention, we don't know for certain that she was tortured, but we do have at least some evidence that she was detained at Bagram, and that she was subjected to torture there.  That is based on eyewitness accounts placing her there, and eyewitness accounts as to the goings on in that prison.

What accounts do we have relating to her terrorism?
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2010, 07:40:29 AM »


What accounts do we have relating to her terrorism?

SS Ad Hom fail:


Quote
Jihadi scientist Aafia Siddiqui is on trial right now in a federal Manhattan court for the attempted murder and assault of U.S. military personnel in Pakistan two years ago......Counterterrorism investigators connected Siddiqui and her estranged husband, anesthesiologist Dr. Mohammed Amjad Khan, to Saudi terror funders. The couple’s bank account showed repeated purchases of high-tech military equipment and apparel, including body armor, night-vision goggles, and military manuals. Her second husband, fellow al Qaeda suspect and 9/11 plot helper Ammar al Baluchi, is one of five Gitmo detainees that the Obama administration is planning to transfer to New York for trial.

Siddiqui was identified as an al Qaeda operative, financier, and fixer by no less than 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed during U.S. interrogations. Al Baluchi is KSM’s nephew. Mohammed reportedly enlisted Siddiqui in a Baltimore-based plot to bomb gas stations, fuel tanks, and bridges, and poison water reservoirs in the greater Washington, D.C. area.. Siddiqui was taken into custody in Kabul in July 2008 after attempting to shoot U.S. military interrogators and FBI agents.
JD

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De Selby

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2010, 08:16:34 AM »
How is asking where the proof of her being an al qaeda operative is at an "ad hom"???

Now, let's assume all those allegations in the paragraph you posted are true, and that there's evidence to support them.

Doesn't it bother you that she's not charged with any of those things besides the attempted shooting, which by itself smacked of insanity? Hiding behind curtains and yelling obscenities after picking up a solider's rifle? 

The one crime we do have witnesses to support is bizarre.  There's no evidence as to why she was there, what the negotiations were between the afghans and the Americans on scene, and the shooting itself was batty.  There's nothing in there to challenge the idea that she might have gone nuts from years of detention in Bagram.

Certainly proof that she was connected to Al Qaeda would do that, but again, she wasn't even charged with helping Al Qaeda.  Why not, if all that's posted there is true or there's at least some evidence to support it?

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Jamisjockey

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Re: NY Terror Trials
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2010, 09:57:22 AM »
Words fail me to the lengths and depths you'll go to stretch an argument.  If I ever do anything stupid, you can be my Attorney.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”