Author Topic: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog  (Read 2751 times)

zxcvbob

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Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« on: July 09, 2015, 11:45:40 AM »
(I almost screwed up the subject line bigtime.  Read it w/o the "Re:"  :lol: )

"Gilligan" is a 11 or 12 y.o. black lab, and has had chronic ear infection problems for years.  Sometimes I get his ears cleared up for a while, but it comes back.  He also has dry skin and a greasy coat (not sure how that works) and lots of dandruff.  I took him to the vet a few days ago for his annual checkup.  Vet said he smells "yeasty", and he has skin infections as well as ear infections.  She gave me antibiotic pills (cephalexin, which he *hates*) and two kinds of ear drops.

Now to get to the point.  I want to use a medicated shampoo with either hexachlorophene or chlorhexadine.  That stuff is expensive to buy in little bottles, but chlorhexadine 2% or 4% solution is cheap in gallon jugs (I could also dilute it to refill one of the expensive ear drops, cuz that's all it is)  What's the best way to use the 2% stuff on a big dog?  I don't have a dip tank.  Maybe wash him with regular shampoo, then pour a little of the stuff over him while he's still wet, massage it in for a couple of minutes, and then rinse?  Or do I mix it with the shampoo?

Vet was also concerned that he's lost weight, but the last 2 times he's been there she said he was too fat.  :facepalm:  I can't recall a vet *ever* being happy with a dog's weight. (he's 82 pounds)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2015, 04:32:19 PM by zxcvbob »
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makattak

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2015, 12:02:44 PM »
You need to mix some brewer's yeast into his food.











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castle key

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2015, 12:16:32 PM »
You can approach the ear and skin problems as you are, but likely you will never get ahead of the issues. It will go on and on.

The probable reason for these problems is an allergy to one or many different things, so you must solve this main issue before you can progress.

Address the immediate problems, the ear infections. They need to be kept really clean, especially if they are dropped ears; stick em up ears not as big a problem.

Concurrently you need to find what is causing the allergies. It is probably a food allergy and most food allergies are relate to proteins. You are going to need to change to a novel protein, if the food you currently use chicken based you should move to lamb or beef or even fish. Try to find a protein that he has never eaten. Do away with as much grains in the food as possible.

Looking at food allergies takes a while as it can require several weeks to see change. Yo may want to consider a raw based diet. I swear by this. It seems at expensive, but the aggregate cost actually is not bad once you get transitioned. For immediate relief, an oatmeal shampoo seems to work ok and Benedryl is your friend. You can dose at about 4X the human dose per pound and probably wont get too much drowsiness.

This can take a while but it will work. Did the doc do a blood draw to see if there is anything else going on?
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41magsnub

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2015, 12:25:25 PM »
Castle Key is on the right track.  The raw food diet is a good idea.  There are a lot of complete and utter kooks out there when it comes to the raw food diet that make it sound like a scam on the Internet, but there really is something to it*.  Dog people reach or even exceed horse people levels of crazy on this topic.

I feed purina pro plan to my dog, but she does not have any issues.  If she was showing symptoms like you describe I would buck up and do it.

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2015, 12:32:57 PM »
I'd definitely try switching the diet to eliminate allergies. Or it could just be too much carbs too, which would promote the growth of yeasts or fungus. You might want to try a lamb & rice dog food that has no corn or wheat in it.

 If it really is yeast and not bacterial, the antibiotics won't help, and could actually make it worse. Same for the Chlorohexadine. Yeah, it'll kill topical yeast, but it'll also kill all benign bacteria on the dog and let the yeast come back even stronger without the competition.

I'd try treating the dog's ears with a mix of Clotrimazole anti-yeast/fungal cream, and for a few days, mix it with some Neosporin/triple-antibotic just to give any raw or weepy spots a chance to heal more quickly, then keep up the Clotrimazole for two weeks to completely kill off the yeast/fungus.

Also, you could try a Ketoconazole anti-dandruff shampoo when you wash him. Both Ketoconozole and Clotrimazole, besides being anti fungal/anti-yeast medicines, they're both mild steroid-like medicines, similar to hydrocortizone, so they'll calm itching, and skin irritations, besides being toxic to yeasts and fungus.

And +100 on switching up the diet as the long-term solution. Dogs/wolves had a high protein diet, and generally only got carbs from organs like liver, or whatever stomach contents/offal they ingested from prey animals. Feeding them tons of grain is probably not good for them.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2015, 01:40:20 PM »
I've recently switch him (and "Penny", the Aussie fatso) to Purina One weight-maintenance kibble.  The main ingredient is turkey.  Previously they were on something that was high protein but mostly corn.  And I should start giving him flax seed oil again...

Sulfodene shampoo (stinks like coal tar, looks like Selsun Blue) really works to ease the itching and dry up his sores.  Vet doesn't like it, of course, and says I should be using an oatmeal conditioner.  She also recommended Benadryl (3.5 tablets twice a day) but I haven't started that yet.  Just doing the cephalexin capsules twice a day and messing with his ears twice a day annoys him enough, but they are getting better.

His ears have both yeast and bacteria, and she thinks his skin does too.
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Firethorn

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2015, 01:49:39 PM »
The benadryl might make him feel better even faster though - as it'll actually start addressing the problem creating the other problems.

zxcvbob

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2015, 02:02:52 PM »
The benadryl might make him feel better even faster though - as it'll actually start addressing the problem creating the other problems.

That's a good point.  Thanks.
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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2015, 04:22:31 PM »
Dozer had ear infections regularly, and the rinse the vet gave me got rid of it temporarily. Went to a different vet a few years ago and he suggested Listerine mouthwash instead, worked great and hasn't been a problem since.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2015, 04:31:41 PM »
Quote
I'd definitely try switching the diet to eliminate allergies. Or it could just be too much carbs too, which would promote the growth of yeasts or fungus. You might want to try a lamb & rice dog food that has no corn or wheat in it.

His favorite treat is a bread sandwich.   ;/  (3 slices of bread)
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2015, 04:33:04 PM »
Thanks to all of you. I got more useful info in this thread than in a year of college


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Kingcreek

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2015, 06:33:32 PM »
We had reoccurring ear infections in a female black lab. Abx and steroid would calm it down for 3-4 weeks then it would come right back. Got real frustrated because the vets didn't have any other suggestions except what wasn't working. Switched to real good all natural dog food with no grains and supplemented with raw foods and went 8 more years and never had another. until we lost her Lyme disease.
We feed eagle pack holistic select or sometimes Costco grain free salmon and sweet potatoe formula.
You have a nutritional and allergy problem. The grains (usually corn) is hard for dogs to digest and keeps thier gut inflamed.
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Calumus

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2015, 06:34:20 PM »
Honestly, the first thing I'd suggest is getting him on to a grain free, fish based diet. That one change has helped a decent number of my friends' dogs who were having the same issue. There are a few that don't cost much more then the purina; but are much higher quality. Taste of the Wild is at a good price/quality ratio. Tractor supply usually has the best price on it too. Depending on your budget, you can always find something a little lower on the quality scale, or something that blows it away; but requires selling blood to buy it.

BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2015, 06:41:19 PM »
Vinager.

No, I'm not kidding.

We use apple cider at the shop.

Wash him with dish soap (seriously, toss the doggy shampoo) you need to get the grease and dander off him and that requires Dawn. If he's super greasy and funky, go for two suddsings. On the second suddsings, soak him down with vinager, scrub it in and let it sit for five minutes or so. One other protip, avoid scrubbing really hard or really massaging the skin. You want to let the soap do the work on the degreasing. Massaging the skin is just going to stimulate the skin into producing more oil.
He'll smell like a salad, but it will get rid of the yeast.

After that, keep a regular bathing schedule. The whole 'too many baths drys a dog out' is a myth. Aim for every two weeks. If you get him going the full two weeks without funkyness, you can stretch it out to three. Keeping his hair coat and skin clean will go a long way to making him feel better.

Second, ears. Clean and medicate. I recommend a mix of 1/3 green alcohol and 2/3 apple cider vingeger. The vet will likely give you otobotic (spelling is probably wrong there)
Flush the ear with cleaning solution, basically just pour it in and fill it up, swish around and then let him shake his head. Use cotton balls and qtips to wipe it out. Keep going until your not getting gunk. If there is a lot of gunk, you may need to reflush. You are likely to end up with some bloody cotton balls and he's not going to much like it, but you want it clean.
Then put in the ear drops. Go easy on it. Really, just one drop. Massage the outside of the ear to rub it in.
You want to do the ear meds daily (whatever the vet recommends) and do a good clean every three days or so. Don't clean the ears everyday. You want to give the meds a chance to work.

Along with bynadryle and food changes, you may be able to clear it up.

You also may just have a chronic issue. Some dogs are just natural greaseballs and some dogs just get ear infections, and it gets more chronic as they age. If that's the case, learning to deal with it and being in a position to catch it early and treat it before he gets uncomfortable is the best bet.
We have a few clients at the shop like that. One in particular, Teddy, is finally on a routine that really works. It took years to convince his idiot owner to stop changing things up everytime he showed up and doing all this random homeopathic crap. We've gotten him to the point were a good dish soap bath (mostly without vigeger anymore) every month and regular ear cleanings keep most of his issues at bay. Plus, we are now catching the infections before they get bad, and he can get treatment.
He's in much better shape.
Mind you, he's still dumber than a box of rocks and his owner is still an idiot, but he doesn't stink so bad and he can actually do more than sit around and scratch himself these days.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2015, 06:48:31 PM »
Also, the diet changes.

Many breeds do better on the higher protein diet. Some do not. Pay attention to his poop and his weight.

That protein has got to go somewhere. Best if it's getting worked with exercise.

Remember to make the switch gradually. Old stuff mixed with new stuff over the course of a few days till you've eased him over. And it'll take a month or so to see how it affects him.
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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2015, 09:16:52 PM »
I'll second the vinegar ear rinse. Although I have only ever used white.
We feed our dog a brand called From. It a limited ingredient brand. They have different meets and grain free.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2015, 09:34:06 PM »
Since I just changed his food 2 weeks ago, I think I need to follow thru with that for at least 2 more weeks before I change it again.  Oddly enough, his previous kibble, "Purina Little Bites" cleared up his skin when I switched him to it several years ago.  I thought it was all the vitamin A (LB is unusually high in vitamin A.)  But then all the problems came back.

He's doing better already, and doesn't smell so bad.  He climbed up in my lap a little while ago and the whole couch isn't covered with hair and dandruff.   =|  He also isn't being as difficult to give pills to as he has been in the past.
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2015, 09:51:22 PM »
Since I just changed his food 2 weeks ago, I think I need to follow thru with that for at least 2 more weeks before I change it again.  Oddly enough, his previous kibble, "Purina Little Bites" cleared up his skin when I switched him to it several years ago.  I thought it was all the vitamin A (LB is unusually high in vitamin A.)  But then all the problems came back.

He's doing better already, and doesn't smell so bad.  He climbed up in my lap a little while ago and the whole couch isn't covered with hair and dandruff.   =|  He also isn't being as difficult to give pills to as he has been in the past.

Regarding pilling.

Greenies makes pill pockets that seem to go over well. Can food and cheese are also awesome. Never be above bribery. ;)

Or you can be really evil. The awesome thing about capsels is that the drug is inside and conveniently powdered. Mixed in canned food (or some other tasty treat) and it generally goes right down. I've given more than one dog special cephelxin dosed treats this way.

My own dogs are stupid. They don't realize that this is one thing that if they fight me enough they'd get a treat, but they don't fight it that much, so pills just get shoved down throats. (They get a treat after)
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zxcvbob

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2015, 10:28:16 PM »
The thing that worked the best (for a little while) was using a soda straw to take a "core sample" down the middle of a vienna sausage.  I could put 2 pills or capsules in there, and toss it to him and let him catch it.  It took him 3 days to figure out that it must be a trap.  He caught one, and carefully took it apart; totally ruined vienna sausages as a treat for over a year.  The vet's assistant says I should hide the pills in a marshmallow.  Gilligan likes marshmallows (he doesn't get them often) I don't want to risk ruining them.

I just wrestle his jaws open, shove the pill down, then give him a piece of cheese or salami or something.  I glue 2 Cephalexin capsules together with Elmers school glue.  They are a lot easier to handle that way.

It's about time for the night-dose of ear drops...  He's had his pills already.
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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2015, 11:34:40 PM »
Oh, if he's a PITA for his ear meds, try pinning him on an armchair and sitting on him. That's how I did Southwest when I had to treat the ear that got mauled by a pit bull. I could rest most of my weight on the arm of the chair and still get enough leverage to pin the dog without hurting him, plus, I could kind of wedge his head into a corner, so he couldn't thrash as much.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Ping BSL, Re: itchy old dog
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2015, 11:42:58 PM »
Oh, if he's a PITA for his ear meds, try pinning him on an armchair and sitting on him. That's how I did Southwest when I had to treat the ear that got mauled by a pit bull. I could rest most of my weight on the arm of the chair and still get enough leverage to pin the dog without hurting him, plus, I could kind of wedge his head into a corner, so he couldn't thrash as much.

I don't have any problem pinning him and putting the drops in (and massaging his ears so they actually get down in there.)  He doesn't like the ear meds, and I'm a softie.  So while I'm doing that twice a day *and* doing the cephalexin twice a day, I don't want to do any other insults too if i can put them off a week; until the ear drops/cleanings are just once a day, or every other day.
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