Author Topic: Case clearly not â€˜closedâ€™ in â€˜Seattle woodcarverâ€™ shooting - Workman (Read 5589 times)

CSM Kersh · « **on:** February 16, 2011, 07:09:08 PM »

Quote

Case clearly not ‘closed’ in ‘Seattle woodcarver’ shooting

Today’s announcement by King County Prosecutor Dan Satterberg that criminal charges will not be filed against Seattle Police Officer Ian Birk in the Aug. 30, 1010 shooting death of woodcarver John T. Williams will leave many people doubting the criminal justice system, and it is clear that this case is still not "closed."

http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/case-clearly-not-closed-seattle-woodcarver-shooting

Or try this:

http://tinyurl.com/4vrnq9w

[/list]

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2011, 07:27:23 PM »

The back story on this bad shooting is a cop approached an older man sitting and carving on a stick. The man was on his own property and had the gall to tell the cop take a hike. The cop then used the excuse the man was armed to kill him.

bull

video and back story
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/432014_williams18.html

but hey "it coulda happened that way" and your version makes much better sound bite than reality
and his brother is quoted in another story "he was turning his life around"

Balog · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2011, 07:45:13 PM »

The man was on a sidewalk in Seattle, and he had a knife. Much as I don't generally agree with CSD on this, crazy old dude on the street with a knife smells like a good shoot to me. Also, they are holding protests at City Hall for him today, which instantly makes me dislike this case even more.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2011, 07:48:28 PM »

Quote from: Balog on February 16, 2011, 07:45:13 PM

The man was on a sidewalk in Seattle, and he had a knife. Much as I don't generally agree with CSD on this, crazy old dude on the street with a knife smells like a good shoot to me. Also, they are holding protests at City Hall for him today, which instantly makes me dislike this case even more.

and all 30 of his previous convictions were a result of oppression by the man. my experience is one has to really try to get 30 convictions. might indicate a deeper underlying problem.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2011, 11:26:44 PM »

If I remember correctly, Dave Workman is the leader of the Gun Owners of America? While I have heard good and bad things about Mr. Workman and his group, I don't really have an opinion on them. That being said, and maybe it's just because I'm picky, but I don't like certain members repeatedly acting as publicists for their favorite news outlets. One of our members does this with NewsMax, and now someone is doing it for Dave Workman. Certainly Workman et al deserve to be credited for their stories, but that can be done less obtrusively in the body of the post.

But maybe I'm just funny that way. Cause I'm funny in a whole lotta ways!

El Tejon · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:42:10 AM »

Where did this "older man sitting on his property" meme come from?

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2011, 07:43:10 AM »

not from anyone who watched the video

MillCreek · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2011, 08:38:37 AM »

Quote from: El Tejon on February 17, 2011, 07:42:10 AM

Where did this "older man sitting on his property" meme come from?

This incident took place about two blocks from my old office. I have walked over that very spot countless times. It was a public sidewalk.

CNYCacher · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2011, 08:42:47 AM »

I watched the video. It's disturbing.

A police dash cam at a red light. A man in the crosswalk walks past the front of the car. He is cradling a board in his left arm, he has a knife in his right hand and he is carving on the board as he walks, head bent over his work. He reaches the sidewalk and exits frame to the right.

The officer gets out of the car, and is seen walking across the camera view, exiting frame right. He begins to shout "Hey! Hey! Hey!" as he gets on the sidewalk. Immediately after this, you hear him say "Put the knife down. Put the knife . . . DOWN! Put the knife down." immediately followed by 5 or 6 quick shots. He then radios something like "blah blah shots fired, suspect down, he wouldn't drop his knife"

Later he is heard yelling to someone "Because he wouldn't drop his knife!"

He repeats to other officers at least two more times that he fired because the guy wouldn't put down the knife. Not "he came at me with the knife" or anything like that.

Now, I am of the mind that deadly force laws do not exist to provide a set of circumstances where you can shoot somebody if you want to. I feel that deadly force laws presume that there will be cases where an innocent person needs to use deadly force, and those innocent people, who were thrust into a terrifying and dangerous situation, deserve protection from the law for what they were forced to do.

All too often I see this mindset where people say "well, if they do X, then you can shoot them." and I think the point of the whole thing is missed. I think normal people do not want to shoot anybody, and will avoid doing so at almost all costs. But when they do, deadly force laws are in place to weed out the good and bad shoots.

I think this is a bad shoot. I think the officer thought "he's not dropping his knife, I can shoot him." and so he did.

IANAPO and IANAL, but consider this: his own department ruled it was an unjustified shoot and have fired him. The DA has stated that the only reason he is not being charged is because he was a peace officer at the time, and WA has some interesting laws regarding peace officers and deadly force. Specifically, the state has to prove malice beyond a reasonable doubt to convict a police officer in any shooting.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2011, 03:31:11 PM »

how many shots?

and wash state law is interesting a private person has MORE leeway in a shoot than a cop.
in your world if a cop has a gun on you and you have a knife in your hand how do you handle being told to drop it? assuming you "are turning your life around" like this nice young man was.

CSM Kersh · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2011, 03:57:51 PM »

Quote from: Fistful

If I remember correctly, Dave Workman is the leader of the Gun Owners of America?

Just a FWI, Workman was never a member of GOA much less a leader.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:23:51 PM »

Quote from: CSM Kersh on February 17, 2011, 03:57:51 PM

Just a FWI, Workman was never a member of GOA much less a leader.

ther can be only one! and he won't share or split the pie

CSM Kersh · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:34:11 PM »

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2011, 04:43:31 PM »

over the top?
somewhere between nra and alex jones?
sometimes factually challenged? like the op in this thread?

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2011, 05:25:29 PM »

Quote from: CSM Kersh on February 17, 2011, 03:57:51 PM

Just a FWI, Workman was never a member of GOA much less a leader.

Sorry. I realize now that I remember his name from Gun Week.

KD5NRH · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2011, 05:58:09 AM »

Quote from: CNYCacher on February 17, 2011, 08:42:47 AM

He begins to shout "Hey! Hey! Hey!" as he gets on the sidewalk. Immediately after this, you hear him say "Put the knife down. Put the knife . . . DOWN! Put the knife down." immediately followed by 5 or 6 quick shots.

ISTR some mention in one of the articles that it was known to many of the officers working the area that the victim was hard of hearing, as well.

MillCreek · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2011, 08:26:24 AM »

Quote from: KD5NRH on February 19, 2011, 05:58:09 AM

ISTR some mention in one of the articles that it was known to many of the officers working the area that the victim was hard of hearing, as well.

You are absolutely correct about this; it was widely reported in our local media. I remember it, since I am severely hard-of-hearing as well. So there is some legitimate conjecture as to how well Mr. Williams heard Officer Birk's commands.

And technically, Officer Birk resigned before he could be actually fired. It is likely that the state will decertify him as a police officer in Washington. Meaning he will not be able to work as a cop in Washington.

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2011, 11:15:53 PM »

was he physically hard of hearing" or psychologically predisposed to not hearing cops? cops was yelling pretty loud is it your supposition that a man with his "experience" didn't know the ground rules for what to do when cop draws on you? he missed that class the other 30 times he was convicted?

MillCreek · « **Reply #18 on:** February 20, 2011, 10:06:28 AM »

Some of the other media reports state that Mr. Williams was deaf in one ear, may have been wearing headphones at the time, and it is unknown if he was looking at the officer when the interaction went down. Some of the newspaper articles said that he was simultaneously walking and carving on his board at the time. So if he did not hear the officer and did not see the officer draw down on him until it was too late, he may not have reacted appropriately to the officer's commands.

This is conjecture on my part based on reading and watching the local media reports at the time. Mr. Williams clearly had lots of experience with our local law enforcement, but I would hate for lack of hearing or situational awareness to be a death sentence when interacting with the police. I am also the first to say that I am looking at this through the lens of being hard-of-hearing myself, and for example, the close calls I have had on my bicycle because between the deafness and the windblast in my ears, not being able to hear traffic. The very reason why I have mirrors on all my bicycles and keep my head on a swivel.

MechAg94 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2011, 10:38:46 AM »

Seeing this it occurred to me that if there was an incident where the officer should have pulled out a taser instead of a gun, this might be the one. On the other hand, it does sound like he was a bit quick with shooting no matter what weapon he was using.

Tallpine · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2011, 11:35:44 AM »

I'm just trying to figure out what the reason for the interaction was in the first place

I know that the PNW is full of treehuggers, but seriously - attacking a board with a knife ...?

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2011, 03:15:58 PM »

i'd like to know if they'd "interacted" before. some of the previous convictions were "interesting"

News:

Author Topic: Case clearly not â€˜closedâ€™ in â€˜Seattle woodcarverâ€™ shooting - Workman (Read 5589 times)