Charter Schools

[GigaBuist]

The topic of charter schools has come up a lot recently in my local paper.  There's a big push in Michigan right now to move more failing schools into Charter systems because our budget is a mess and I support that. 

However, I'm seeing an awful lot of push-back from people in comments section.  Mostly with accusations that are simply not true. (Cherry picking students, poor people don't go to them, etc.)

I realize this board is largely made up of people that tend to lean toward less government and more private enterprise, but I'm still wondering what you all think of the notion.  And what experiences you might have.

[Boomhauer]

The only charter school system near here...well, the charter schools are doing very well, kicking ass, taking names, while the standard public school system schools in those districts are failing very, very badly (how badly? The popo doesn't bother going to the schools without a paddy wagon to haul off all of the little thugs they get called in for. Weekly, if not daily)

the charter schools don't seem to have a behavior problem because the kids know that if they act up they'll end up back in the "regular" schools.

[Monkeyleg]

It's a huge issue in Wisconsin, with the teachers union leaning with all of their weight on Democrat and Republican legislators alike.

Milwaukee's school system is failing, just like systems in so many big cities. Vouchers and charter schools would be the choice for many parents, but they're not the choice for the union, which would lose money and clout.

Someone who sends his kid to a private school is still paying taxes for the public school system. That's hardly fair. My MIL worked two or even three jobs to send my wife, sister and three brothers to a catholic school at a cost of $2000 per semester each, and all the while paid taxes for the public school system.

[vaskidmark]

Charter schools do not cherry-pick students as much as they cherry-pick both teachers and administrators.

Running a "factory" that is expected to produce a "product" in such a way as to remain within budget and that meets QC expectations is a very basic analogy of the charter school concept.  Because the charter school is not required to be a union shop it can control the output of its workers to a much higher degree than the public school system (read: fire teachers whose students do not advance academically).  Further, it can actually offer a better pay/benefits package than the public school system because it is not required to carry excess baggage and deadwood.

One of my favorite things about charer schools is that they are smart enough to realize that even though their students are not physically in a public school, the students are entitled to the ancillary support services that public schools are required to provide to all students - psychological support, physical therapy, etc.  The charter school does the educating and the public school system picks up the tab for providing the support services, as well as any transportation costs for getting the student and support service together.  That factor alone can be as much as a full-time teacher position's expense to the sachool budget.

The other thing that I notice about local charter schools is that they seem to have a better communication with (as opposed to merely to) parents, and a better rapport with parents.  It might be described as the relationship being a partnership, as opposed to a superior/inferior relationship.  And this observation comes from two charter schools that deal primarily with children from the "disadvantaged" portion of the community - one elementary and one high school.  Not only is there a difference in the students after a while, there is a noticable difference in the parents.

Admittedly this is one experience and of course YMMV depending on how your charter school is operated.

stay safe.

[Jamie B]

Charter schools here in OH are basically the local Catholic schools.

Enrollment is dropping drastically, and they are suffering.

OH has no voucher system for parents to use for other-than-public schools, so there has been no influx of charter or private schools.

[drewtam]

I spent 2 years in Catholic HS and 2 years in public HS in the bad part of town. The Cath school was around 1000 students and expensive. The public school was huge, 2500-3000 students. The demographics of the public HS was 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 hispanic.

When I was there, the Catholic HS by far had the most drug addicted kids. After school there was a line from the dealer's SUV to the softball fields. Kids were caught dropping acid in the bathroom. In general, I didn't get along with the kids there. Funny thing, I got along the dealer the best, we grew up in the same rural grade school and were neighbors for years.

The public HS had gang problems, so they used detectors at every entrance and random searches of a class w mobile detectors and wands. On the other hand, I got along much better at the public school. I made a really good friend and we started a small business together. And it was marginally profitable too! I ended up taking a really good physics and calculus class at that "bad" public HS. I also took other AP classes in history, chemistry, etc. It made me love science and math again, and I eventually got into engineering.

On the flip side. I had really bad experiences at a rural public grade school. (~250 students). In fact, the principal yelled and threatened me, then lied about events to my parent and others. One other student saw it and spoke up which is the only thing that saved me.


The plural of anecdotes is not data. So I guess my only point is that anyone can sell a bad education product and vouchers won't change that. But it will create more choices for the parent to find the right fit between school and student. And sometimes that best fit will be back at the public school, sometimes it won't.

[Monkeyleg]

So I guess my only point is that anyone can sell a bad education product and vouchers won't change that. But it will create more choices for the parent to find the right fit between school and student. And sometimes that best fit will be back at the public school, sometimes it won't.

Very, very true. But at least with charter schools and vouchers, the parents have choices.

Funny that liberals are pro-choice when it comes to abortion, but anti-choice when it comes to just about anything else.

[makattak]

Very, very true. But at least with charter schools and vouchers, the parents have choices.

Funny that liberals are pro-choice when it comes to abortion, but anti-choice when it comes to just about anything else.

That's because liberals know you'll make a selfish decision that will harm society if they don't make the choice for you.

Unless it's about sex or killing your baby. Then there's no way they can make that decision.

(As an example, here is one of the arguments I've heard against vouchers and charter schools: "But then the more intelligent or better parented children who would have a chance to learn better would leave the failing public schools and then those schools would get WORSE!")

[Viking]

Charter schools are fairly popular here. Roughly 10% of students attend one instead of public school.

[HankB]

Charter schools here in OH are basically the local Catholic schools. Enrollment is dropping drastically, and they are suffering.

Spent 8 years in a Chicago Catholic elementary school. (We didn't have "middle schools" back then.) Enrollment back then was probably 700 or 800 students, now it's down to 231, mostly Hispanic, and emphasizes it's "Anti-Racism" program. The old neighborhood used to be mostly English/German/Polish/Irish/Lithuanian/Scandinavian etc., but now it looks like Little Mexico. 

Except for 4th grade when the nun was a psycho case (and I mean that literally - the decades since haven't improved my opinion of her) and a lazy math teacher, the quality of instruction was generally superior to local public schools . . . don't know how it stacks up today.

Scoped out some Catholic high schools and was encouraged to attend by counselors, but I chose not to go to one for reasons including a long commute and my utter inability to meekly submit to the violence of corporal punishment doled out by some "brothers" without returning it ten fold.

[Tuco]

My kids both go to a charter school that teaches according to the Montessori education model.
The classes are grouped K, 1-3, 4-6, and 7-8. 
The standardized test scores (MEAP) are above average, but a bit lower than "BEST IN THE WORLD" for math and better than most in reading.

We dont get bussing, or cafeteria lunches, a gymnasium, and they are always begging for supplies and funds (we give what we can).

I can drop by whenever I want, sign in at the front desk, walk down the hall and hug my kids. 

Monday morning I brought in a 5' Blue Racer to my 6 y.o. daughter's calssroom (I prearranged it). 
Four classrooms later (!), I put the snake back in the field where I found it.

Yes the admission was by lottery, and we greased the skids by going to programs and introducing ourselves to staff and faculty a year or two before admission.  We wrote a nice appropriate letter stating our goals and desires for our children's education, and were friends with a member of the board who was also a PhD Educator at GVSU, awarded a fullbright and is currently on sabbatical with a thinktank in DC.

We wanted our daughters in this school.  We did everything short of a bribe.  Will poor people go to this length to see to thier children's education? If so, they have as much a chance as we did.  Connect the dots on your own. 

Can forcing a failing public school to charter status jump start it to a higher standard?  Either that or it will cause it to close down.
Hmmmmm... 
Performance based reward? 
That sounds terrifyingly capitalistic.

I like it.

[grislyatoms]

My daughter just finished her first year at a charter school. To say I am pleased with both the school's and my daughter's performance would be a gross understatement.

The one main difference I have seen between the public schools and this charter school - the folks involved. Everyone, to the last parent, teacher, and child, is engaged. I volunteer when my schedule allows and I have rarely seen a better bunch of folks, as a whole.

When the state lawmakers were pondering cutting a key funding bill recently, they were invited to the school. 750+ parents, grandparents, and students (essentially the entire school) showed up to rally. The local news outlets showed up as well. (I was on t.v. for a bit, even!) The lawmakers left the bill intact.

I like the "no cafeteria" plan. All the related costs are instead plowed into education. How hard is it to make a sandwich/wrap, fill a thermos with soup, and chop some fruit/vegetables?

I attended somewhat elite private schools until I was in 9th grade. The quality of education at this particular charter school is on par, and without the rampant elitist attitudes. The kids are polite and well spoken, generous (even if someone forgot their lunch, they don't go without), and fun to be around. Teachers are the same way. Administrators, too. Engaged.

I'm proud to be part of it all.

  

[MillCreek]

^^^^ My wife, the elementary school teacher, agrees that a critical part of educational success is the engagement of all parties, especially the parents, in the educational process.  This year, for example, she has had very few parent volunteers or much involvement in her classroom, and she says she can really tell the difference. 

[Tuco]

.....(even if someone forgot their lunch, they don't go without), and fun to be around. Teachers are the same way. Administrators, too. Engaged.

I'm proud to be part of it all....

Same here.

Friday, the girls go to the after-school program (basically, extended day care).  My oldest left with a friend for an overnight, (prearranged) and the first grader was scheduled to be picked up by me at 5 pm.  I got a call at 4:30 from her teacher.  Teach was loading up a bunch of children (including one of her own) and taking them to the ice cream joint and was it okay and I could pick her up there.

Sat and shot the breeze with the teacher for a half hour and got volunteered to go in and tell stories in two weeks.
I'm thinking "Chicken Heart" or "The Cruel Shoes".

[Chuck Dye]

I have long argued that much of the social ills in the world and, especially, in the U.S. can be attributed to parental abdication.  Let anybody acculturate the kids, schools, media, whatever, just so long as the parents aren't bothered.  I suspect that where charter schools succeed is in attracting involved parents.  The rest is secondary.

[makattak]

I have long argued that much of the social ills in the world and, especially, in the U.S. can be attributed to parental abdication.  Let anybody acculturate the kids, schools, media, whatever, just so long as the parents aren't bothered.  I suspect that where charter schools succeed is in attracting involved parents.  The rest is secondary.

Parental abdication is but a symptom.

The problem with America is (many) adults don't want to, and don't grow up. We've encouraged immaturity in how we coddle teenagers and, now, college students. (And even longer anymore.)

If you don't ever grow up, you can't be a parent either.

[drewtam]

Now this is an ironic thing.

In this forum thread, there is consensus that parental involvement is very important to child rearing and educational development.

In the other forum thread, there is consensus that the most significant factor is the nature of a person; and human nature is not malleable.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=29471.125

[makattak]

Now this is an ironic thing.

In this forum thread, there is consensus that parental involvement is very important to child rearing and educational development.

In the other forum thread, there is consensus that the most significant factor is the nature of a person; and human nature is not malleable.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=29471.125

Nurture is important to education and civilization of children. Nature is important for personality/capabilities.

I see no disconnect between the two. Parents exist to civilize children. There is a limit to how much can be done, though. (Hence, nature.)

Parents shape nature, not change it.

[Rob Morse]

Charter schools work well in California.  Here, charter schools are not constrained by union seniority.  Given our budget cuts, the teachers union is trying to do away with them.

[roo_ster]

Now this is an ironic thing.

In this forum thread, there is consensus that parental involvement is very important to child rearing and educational development.

In the other forum thread, there is consensus that the most significant factor is the nature of a person; and human nature is not malleable.
http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=29471.125

Very important != Most significant factor

Similar, but not identically weighty.

The older I get, the more weight I give to Nature.  Some days I think it may be as high as 80%, but my usual is something along the lines of "more than 50%."

Also, Nurture is stacked against the parents, once kids go off to school.  Of the Nurture proportion, parental influence likely plunges down to 10%, once kids become teenagers.

As a parent, once my kids go off to school, the greatest influence I can have on my kids is manipulating their peer group. 

I can manage this manipulation is two ways:
1. Choosing where we live.
2. Choosing where they go to school.

We determined where we lived very carefully, noting the demographics of the local population and the local public schools, the performance of those public schools, crime rates, etc.  Neighborhood playmates are thus filtered.

We pay serious $$$ to send our kids to a private religious school we scouted out (to include the church) before we sent our kids there.  We were especially interested in the school-aged kids, as they (or their younger siblings) would be the sorts to be our children's peers.  We have become involved in the leadership of the school and church, so as to influence both. 

Worst case scenario, if we fall on hard times, we can send our kids across the street to the well-regarded public school

Every once and a while, my wife wonders if we are sheltering our kids too much.  I figure that they can always learn bad habits and take up with shady characters.  What is tougher is teaching them good habits and making sure to limit the number of sawed-off sociopaths and budding felons they deal with as children.  Oh, and keeping them from the power of adult sociopaths in the gov't education bureaucracy.

[Boomhauer]

very once and a while, my wife wonders if we are sheltering our kids too much.

You can expose them to the underworld and show them the evil at your discretion...they are much less likely to face it unarmed and alone than they would by being thrown into the shark tank of the average public skool.

[roo_ster]

You can expose them to the underworld and show them the evil at your discretion...they are much less likely to face it unarmed and alone than they would by being thrown into the shark tank of the average public skool.

Already doing that.  Whenever my wife needs to hit work (county hospital) for a quick errand and takes the kids along, she shows the results of poor behavior and decision-making skills:
"Do enough meth and you'll end up like this next patient, who used to work as a <goodjob> and had a nice family, but now his brain nearly as messed up as the next patient, who rode his motorcycle drunk and without a helmet.  Oh, and the next patient will show you the effects of AIDS in its last stages after partaking in <heroin or homosexuality or both>.  Here's another patient who got drunk, but instead of riding a motorcycle, she got belligerent and kicked through a sliding glass door and cut herself so bad, she nearly lost her leg."

I have other means.

[grislyatoms]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=31492256&id=1591479091

A small sample of the folks attending the rally.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/164106_1655546400473_1591479091_31492261_7695825_n.jpg

Another sample. That's yours truly in the khaki shirt/bald head.