Author Topic: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds  (Read 2725 times)

Ben

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Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« on: June 25, 2011, 10:35:08 AM »
California's new high speed rail (because we can SO afford it). Maybe there's more backstory here, but it seems pretty straightforward to me -- this planning process already included eminent domain as a preferred alternative to running the rail over public land because of the bird sanctuary. Some of our current train tracks go right along the beach through the central coast, to include all kinds of nesting areas and pinniped haulouts.

It's also interesting that they can completely circumvent the lake bed, but they need to cut right through the middle, versus an edge, of a farm.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/25/high-speed-rail-routed-around-environmental-site-affects-new-group-farms/
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zxcvbob

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 12:57:33 PM »
That might be intentional, just to F with the farmers.

I predict highspeed trains having to stop for farm equipment crossing the tracks (or broken-down there)  >:D
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roo_ster

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 01:06:51 PM »
That might be intentional, just to F with the farmers.

I predict highspeed trains having to stop for farm equipment crossing the tracks (or broken-down there)  >:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5rRZdiu1UE
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Lanius

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 01:08:23 PM »
Quote
I predict highspeed trains having to stop for farm equipment crossing the tracks (or broken-down there)  Evil
Yuo're obviously an American who has never seen a TGV or other high speed track. The tracks are surrounded by a chainlink fence. The idea of drunk staggering and then getting pasted by high speed trains is very sweet, but grisly, hence the fences.

In France, I'm fairly sure blocking TGV tracks would get you a felony charge for reckless endangerment, or something like that..

longeyes

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2011, 01:19:32 PM »
The Overseers are pretty clear about which species they prefer and which one they don't.  Perhaps it's time for a psychiatric inquiry into those who guide such agencies.
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zxcvbob

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 01:39:48 PM »
Yuo're obviously an American who has never seen a TGV or other high speed track. The tracks are surrounded by a chainlink fence. [snip]

I'm pretty sure California state law will force the transit authority to give him an easement to access his property.

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roo_ster

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2011, 03:26:27 PM »
Yuo're obviously an American who has never seen a TGV or other high speed track. The tracks are surrounded by a chainlink fence. The idea of drunk staggering and then getting pasted by high speed trains is very sweet, but grisly, hence the fences.

In France, I'm fairly sure blocking TGV tracks would get you a felony charge for reckless endangerment, or something like that..

My post covers willful misapplication of farm equipment.

I'm pretty sure California state law will force the transit authority to give him an easement to access his property.

And this covers inadvertent blockage.
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roo_ster

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MechAg94

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2011, 11:34:28 PM »
I recall this issue discussed some years ago when high speed rail was brought up in Texas.  The idea that people might have to drive several miles to find a crossing to 200 yards away seemed pretty nuts.  Also there would have to be all sorts of allowances for wildlife to cross at some point or you are just walling off huge sections of the state.  I'm glad we never did it.  I'm sure the people lobbying for it would have made lots of money though. 
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KD5NRH

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2011, 01:21:30 AM »
Also there would have to be all sorts of allowances for wildlife to cross at some point or you are just walling off huge sections of the state.

This; completely blocking migration routes is a lot worse for many species than just taking some of their habitat.  Considering that we're mainly talking about whitetail and larger animals, just planning to hit a few with the high-speed trains isn't exactly a good plan either.  Those things aren't built like freight trains to just shrug off a cruise-speed collision with a full grown beefmaster bull.


Boomhauer

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2011, 02:02:07 AM »
California's new high speed rail (because we can SO afford it). Maybe there's more backstory here, but it seems pretty straightforward to me -- this planning process already included eminent domain as a preferred alternative to running the rail over public land because of the bird sanctuary. Some of our current train tracks go right along the beach through the central coast, to include all kinds of nesting areas and pinniped haulouts.

It's also interesting that they can completely circumvent the lake bed, but they need to cut right through the middle, versus an edge, of a farm.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/06/25/high-speed-rail-routed-around-environmental-site-affects-new-group-farms/

Think of it a lot like the Flight 93 memorial. The feds just had to seize 2200 acres to properly memorialize it, dontcha know?

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2011, 09:55:06 AM »
er no... i don't know

On March 7, 2002, Congressman John Murtha (PA-12) introduced a bill in the United States House of Representatives to establish a National Memorial to be developed by a commission, and ultimately administered by the National Park Service. On April 16, 2002, Senator Arlen Specter (PA) introduced a version of the "Flight 93 National Memorial Act" in the Senate. On September 10, 2002 the bill passed both houses of Congress. The final bill specifically excluded the four hijackers from being memorialized. When signed by President George W. Bush on September 24, 2002, it became Public Law No. 107-226, and the site was listed on the National Register of Historic Places. By September 2005, the commission was required to send to the Secretary of the Interior and Congress recommendations for the planning, design, construction, and long-term management of a permanent memorial.

The proposed boundaries of the National Memorial extend from Lambertsville Road to U.S. Route 30. It will be about 2,200 acres (890 ha), of which about 1,000 acres (400 ha) will be privately held, but protected through partnership agreements. The memorial itself would be a 400-acre (160 ha) bowl-shaped area, with 1,800 acres (730 ha) surrounding as a buffer.[7] In December 2002, landowner Tim Lambert donated 6 acres (2.4 ha) at the crash site, and entered discussions with the Conservation Fund regarding 160 acres (65 ha) additional.[8] Using some funds donated from receipts for the film United 93, the Families of Flight 93 organization purchased 3 acres (1.2 ha) in the summer of 2006. The organization is also seeking $10 million in federal funding to use for acquiring land.[7] In November 2006, the Conservation Fund acquired 100 acres (40 ha) as buffer land which are to be managed by the Pennsylvania Game Commission.[9] PBS Coals Inc. sold 900 acres (360 ha) to the families' organization in March 2008.[10]


from wikki


then this

http://www.wjactv.com/news/19396127/detail.html

National Park Service officials said they will begin taking land for the Flight 93 memorial in Somerset County from property owners because negotiations have been unsuccessful.

The service said it will condemn about 500 acres still needed for the memorial to be built in time for the 10th anniversary of the 2001 terrorist attacks.

Randall Musser, who is one of seven landowners affected, said he is surprised by the Park Service's actions but understands the agency must move forward with land acquisition to finish the memorial by 2011.

Park Service representatives said they have been working with landowners for years, but negotiations have not been successful.

Musser said while there have been talks about negotiating, they have never sat down and discussed anything.


and finally this
http://www.wtae.com/news/19665762/detail.html


SOMERSET, Pa. -- The U.S. government will not use eminent domain to seize people's land for a permanent Flight 93 memorial and instead will renew negotiations with landowners near the terrorist crash site in Somerset County.

"The landowners will be treated fairly," Interior Secretary Ken Salazar said Friday. "There will be fair compensation provided. That's fair compensation based on fair market value."

U.S. Gov't Backs Off Plan To Seize Flight 93 Memorial Land

Until Friday, the National Park Service had planned to seize the remaining land that's needed for a $58 million, 2,200-acre memorial and national park at the crash site -- an extremely rural area 60 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.

Slideshow: Pictures Of The Flight 93 Temporary Memorial

U.S. Sen. Arlen Specter, D-Pa., accompanied Salazar Friday as they met with families of victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, fatal hijacking and landowners in Shanksville.

The meeting also focused on what still needs to be done for the memorial to be completed by 2011, in time for the 10th anniversary of the terrorist attacks.

Specter said the "landowners have been good neighbors and there have been some miscommunications. Here and now, we have to recognize the contributions of the landowners."

Salazar told the park service to negotiate with landowners for one more week. Eminent domain will be used as a last resort if no agreement can be reached.

"They, too, were the victims of 9/11, in terms of what happened," Salazar said of the seven property owners, who control about 500 acres. "I do believe we will find a good way and a positive way to move forward."

Two owners account for a majority of the acreage that the park service had hoped to condemn. Svonavec Inc. owns 275 acres -- including the place of impact where the plane hit the ground -- while a family that operates a scrap yard has about 150.

Parks service officials have said they needed to take the land because negotiations with landowners weren't successful, but landowners said those negotiations never took place.

"Every time we've talked to someone, nothing's happened," said Christine Williams, who owns about 6 acres at the site with her husband. "We have had three appraisals. We've never seen them."

"They haven't been informed exactly what was going on -- the procedures which were being followed," said Specter, who chalked it up to miscommunication.

Williams said she believes the announcement will help the process move faster, but it doesn't make giving up the land any easier.

"This was to be a property that we retired to," she said. "We didn't want to leave, and we still don't want to leave."

Current plans for the memorial include a walkway and a wall which would follow the plane's flight path to the crash site. Visitors would also be able to, for the first time, view the crash site from just a few feet away.

United Airlines Flight 93 was traveling from Newark, N.J., to San Francisco when hijackers took control and diverted it, likely hoping to crash into the White House or Capitol. The official 9/11 Commission report said the hijackers took the plane down when passengers tried to gain control of the cockpit.

Read more: http://www.wtae.com/news/19665762/detail.html#ixzz1QOHKhA35

« Last Edit: June 26, 2011, 10:01:31 AM by cassandra and sara's daddy »
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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MechAg94

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 11:43:04 AM »
Considering how much money they are spending, they could have offered 2 to 3 times the market price, got it over with quickly, and saved quite a bit of money and time.  That is one reason I start disliking eminent domain. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 12:03:51 PM »
how does one
"offered 2 to 3 times the market price,"

and  "saved quite a bit of money and time"
my understanding was the companies saw a windfall and tried to exploit it.  imagine that.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011, 02:36:09 PM »
how does one
"offered 2 to 3 times the market price,"

and  "saved quite a bit of money and time"

Lawyer fees and the time value of money.
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roo_ster

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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2011, 02:39:44 PM »
thats gonna be cheaper than paying assessed value?  only if there is/was a protracted legal fight and thats not the reality here. what did they finally end up paying the folks for the last 500 acres?it was mostly the mining operation and the scrapyard.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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roo_ster

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2011, 02:43:12 PM »
thats gonna be cheaper than paying assessed value?  only if there is/was a protracted legal fight and thats not the reality here. what did they finally end up paying the folks for the last 500 acres?it was mostly the mining operation and the scrapyard.

Maybe lawyers work cheap where you live.  Not so much around here.
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roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2011, 02:54:13 PM »
states lawyer is on salary. unless there is an adverse award the other folks pay their own.  its actually part of the inate unfairness of eminent domain.  but since in this case they didn't use eminent domain its moot.

this guy in court?  good luck to him and the fact hes got a donation box tells the tale

and this?
http://wearecentralpa.com/wtaj-news-fulltext?nxd_id=117551
Salazar says the Federal Government has agreed to acquire the need land at a price in the neighborhood of nine and one half million dollars. Its figure he says reflects the appraised fair market value of the the properties.
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Boomhauer

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 12:55:02 AM »
Why the *expletive deleted*ck does 2200 acres need to be seized for what ought to be a small memorial?

Way I see it, and considering I understand the NPS and fed .gov mentality pretty well...the feds saw the opportunity for grabbing some land just for the hell of it. Kind of how like they forced the poor old black guy off his family's homestead at the park where I worked, despite his home being nowhere near the historically significant section of the park.



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MechAg94

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 09:11:19 AM »
thats gonna be cheaper than paying assessed value?  only if there is/was a protracted legal fight and thats not the reality here. what did they finally end up paying the folks for the last 500 acres?it was mostly the mining operation and the scrapyard.
What I saw when I read the article was that they screwed around for years making no headway on acquiring property and kept referring to "fair price" and all that.  How long has the group that is using Govt funds to set up this thing been in operation and how long have they been paying salaries of people working for this group?  I really doubt it is all volunteers.  Now they may end up dealing with lawsuits over the eminent domain which is also going to cost.  "Fair price" don't mean dirt to homeowners looking at someone trying to seize their land.
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MechAg94

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2011, 09:12:51 AM »
Why the *expletive deleted* does 2200 acres need to be seized for what ought to be a small memorial?
Because when the Federal Govt doles out a truckload of money, they feel they can don anything they want. 

It could have and should have been done with all private funds and donations.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Rail to Disrupt Farmers, Not Birds
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2011, 09:31:21 AM »
Why the *expletive deleted* does 2200 acres need to be seized for what ought to be a small memorial?

Way I see it, and considering I understand the NPS and fed .gov mentality pretty well...the feds saw the opportunity for grabbing some land just for the hell of it. Kind of how like they forced the poor old black guy off his family's homestead at the park where I worked, despite his home being nowhere near the historically significant section of the park.





how much land was seized again?  wanna try 150 acres?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I