Scientist raises questions about genetics and the criminal justice system

[Balog]

http://m.theatlantic.com/magazine/print/2011/07/the-brain-on-trial/8520/

Basic premise: there is no free will, so assigning culpability is a failed model for our justice system.

I don't agree, but I'm interested in you all's take on it.

[RoadKingLarry]

Some interesting points brought up.
Treat the ones you can and cull the rest maybe?

I've seen a couple cases of either a brain injury or a tumor in the brain radically altering a persons behaviour and personality.

My neighbor was a big time hot shot with Peabody coal in th '70s, They used to come to his house and pick him up for the day in a helicopter. I went to school with one of his kids and had met him a few times, sharp as a tack and a hard charger.
One day the chopper failed at beating the air into submission and succumbed to gravity, my neighbor was the only survivor but he had suffered a pretty severe head/brain injury and bears very little resembalance personality wise to the man he was before. Still a heck of a nice guy and a great neighbor though.

[vaskidmark]

I never thought the question of "free will" was a good way to approach the issues of morality or criminality, but I also never thought that "fatalism" was a decent alternative, either.  Neurology and neurobiology may hold some explanations and some options for change/rehabilitation.  My overwhelming concern at the moment is that history tends to demonstrate that putting te power of decision-making about such matters in the hands of the state represented by "it's for your own good""-ists does not produce good or even equal, let alone equitable, outcomes.  To paraphrase, who is going to check and vett the status of those who will be checking the status of those deciding if you are diseased or just plain rotten?

Admittedly our current system sucks big-time.  But there's a reason science fiction has pretty much made it an axiom that robotic justice sucks even more than our current highly flawed system.

It's the middle of the night.  I woke up from the first dream I can recall in literally years, and my thinker-er is not yet up to coming up with answers to stuff like this on the spot.  I'd say "Let me sleep on it" but that does not seem to be an option at the moment.

stay safe.

[seeker_two]

Simple answer:  Eyeglasses, Xanax, and hormone therapy make any arguements of genetic determinism moot.....we've been overcoming our genetic predispositions for centuries....

[birdman]

Ah, the genetic predisposition vs free will argument.

First, a straw man argument: susceptibility to addiction is a genetic trait (shared by both ultra marathoners, people who work 100 hours a week AND heroin addicts, which, digression, kinda look similar), so it is IS free will as to whether that trait is applied to productive or destructive pursuits.

Second, an anecdotal/non-statistical argument, I know quite a few true sociopath or psychopaths that are extremely productive, successful, and have never done anything violent or destructive

Third, I agree with seeker_two's argument, we have been compensating for genetic variability for millennia, albeit with the application of free will and technology, any rarer genetic pre-dispositions or predilections can only manifest in hormonal (and thus medically changeable either now in in the future) or alterable based on learned behavior /free will correction (see addiction argument)

So I think the article referenced in the OP is yet another "oh well, guess we just have to accept {blank}, because it's "the way it is" argument"...which is the heart of the progressive BS that is wrecking so much these days.

[T.O.M.]

I think of it like this.  Put 100 people in a situation where they have an opportunity to steal something, and they will make a choice.  Most will choose to walk away, while some will choose to attempt the theft.  Life is all about choices and consequences.  Good choices have good outcomes.  Bad choices put people in front of me, wondering if I'm going to let them go home tonight.

As for substance abuse, my courtroom policy is that if you use, don't give a damn who else gets hurt along the way if you steal to afford it, or neglect a child because of it, etc., I will punish you accordingly.  If you have a problem, ask me for help, and work with us on trying to get better, I won't punish you for slipping along the way.

[Ned Hamford]

I've known a couple of folks into the brain science.  Girl, top of the field studies at Columbia, sometimes even having human brains under the scanner, one of the smarter folks I've known, and wholly believes in free will ect.  Another, local college, not one of the best and the brightest, doesn't believe in free will... studies the brain by giving crayfish heroin, and whose most recent publication asserted there may be some evidence to show people learn better when colors are used rather than in a wholly black and white environment... I think it was teaching people the names of colors in spanish...  Thanks to facebook I also know he now has a tattoo across his entire chest, a stylized font just saying Skeptic.  I really dislike that guy. 

I'm a great believer in free will.  Neural plasticity also really seems to support the notion.  Having suffered from head trauma myself, I dare say I got to experience it a token bit myself.  Last of human freedoms and whatnot.

In cases of tumors and trauma, much like extreme situations, I think our legal system already has well explored culpability lowering concepts like the irresistible impulse.  For almost all serial killers/rapers, they actually had to work hard to overcome the natural inclinations; as exemplified by vomiting afterwards or being unable to get an erection. 

But yah, feel an irresistible urge to kill loved ones or indulge in pedophilia coming on... go check yourself into a hospital.  Rather like that classic horror film example of the man turning into a werewolf who gets himself chained up before the moon rises; or how we hold people accountable for their actions when they are drunk/high [as they made the choice to get drunk/high].  I do think it is a more interesting question when a person goes OFF their meds; but yah, ignoring free will doesn't lead to anything good in a free society.

[TommyGunn]

I wonder what people who think up philosophies like this think should be done with violent & dangerous criminals?  Just let 'em run loose?

One of the purposes of the prison system is to isolate society from these people to protect it FROM these people. 
This is completly aside from rehab or other intents.
I might even be able to come up with a halfway decent article that stipulates that if someone is nothing more than a puppet of his DNA, or biology then there's all the MORE reason to remove  hime from society.

[MechAg94]

So I think the article referenced in the OP is yet another "oh well, guess we just have to accept {blank}, because it's "the way it is" argument"...which is the heart of the progressive BS that is wrecking so much these days.

I fall in this line of thought.  I am always skeptical of articles that imply that individuals are not responsible for their actions.  That is primarily due to so many idiots who try to use it as an excuse and other idiots who believe them. 

I was taught to take responsibility for my actions, good or bad, intentional or mistake.  It really doesn't matter why or how you did it, but you did it and should own up to it. 

[MicroBalrog]

Fine. Wrongdoing is genetic. I guess we have the moral excuse to isolate criminals pre-emptively?


























Somehow I don't think that's where they want us to go with this.

[AJ Dual]

One can completely believe that genetic and biological predisposition to crime exists, but still know it in no way absolves one of personal responsibility, or that free will does not exist.

My SIL by marriage is adopted. As is her older brother. Both have different birth families.

My SIL, a special-ed high school teacher and girls tennis coach found her birth mother, who just happens to be a special-ed high school teaching assistant, and girls volleyball coach.

Her brother found his birth parents, both in prison at the time, and with lengthy arrest records. Before that time, he was constantly in and out of jail for drugs, larceny, and parole/probation violations. He has the notable distinction of being the only student at their local high school who had to be carried out in a straight jacket and hogtied/leg-irons by the police.

After finding his birth mother, he wound up murdering his live-in girlfriend through strangulation, and then his birth mother helped him dispose of her corpse. http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local/fox_cities/mueller-to-be-sentenced-for-girlfriends-death

(Note, the father pleading for just the possibility of parole is his adoptive father, the mother who is charged in the case, and who's apartment where the murder took place is the birth mother with whom he'd reunited as an adult. The MSM news story, in usual fashion, does a piss poor job of explaining this.)

I know the plural of anecdote is not data. However, stuff like this in my own life, and cases like the separated twins who have the same type of job, the same car, wives with the same name, and even the same breed of dog... tells me that genetics/biology is HUGELY powerful in who we are and what we do...

However, we are sentient/sapient beings. And part of being self-aware is to recognize and work with and against our inborn traits. This is what separates us from the animals. Some of the great apes and other animals may have tools, arguably, some have language of sorts too. Despite that, none of them have any social constructs that aim to override their instincts to bring harm and mayhem to others when their instincts drive them to it.

That's what it truly means to be human.  

[seeker_two]

Fine. Wrongdoing is genetic. I guess we have the moral excuse to isolate criminals pre-emptively?

Somehow I don't think that's where they want us to go with this.

Shhhhhhhhh!....Tom Cruise might hear you & make another movie..... 

[Tallpine]

I might even be able to come up with a halfway decent article that stipulates that if someone is nothing more than a puppet of his DNA, or biology then there's all the MORE reason to remove  hime from society.

Permanently