Author Topic: "Slide-fire"/bump fire  (Read 3863 times)

Jocassee

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"Slide-fire"/bump fire
« on: August 05, 2011, 07:07:54 AM »
Potential legal issues aside, I think I want one.

http://www.classicfirearms.com/slide_fire.htm?v=Tm1mBhLNT_s&feature=related

"Slide fire" bump-fire assisting stock for your AR-15
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Jamisjockey

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 07:30:16 AM »
I think the BATFEIEIO will be having a field day over that.  If a shoelace is outlawed, afterall, only outlaws will have shoelaces!
JD

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birdman

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2011, 07:45:35 AM »
So far BATFE has tacitly allowed it.  The official response (from BATFE, you can see the letter) was that it's not a fully automatic weapon because each discharge requires a separate action (forward pressure on the forward grip to return the weapon to it's initial state, combined with continued push backward on the trigger).  Since technically, the system allows the trigger to be released after each discharge (by recoiling the weapon into the stock), each discharge is a separate trigger pull.  Now, the end result is well within the letter of the law (hence the official response), I do not see it being very long (especially if it's popularity continues to rise) before a regulatory adjustment is made.  Of course, such an adjustment is demonstrably litigable as the device fits within the current laws, and thus a de facto rule-based ban would be contrary to established law...such a rule could easily be held up by even a conservative court, if they were operating in any way on public-opinion based "common sense" and not a strict interpretive method.

That being said, a friend of mine has one, and it's pretty cool.  I want one, even though it's ugly as sin.

Daniel964

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2011, 08:04:54 AM »
At $350 each.   :O
I don't think I'll be getting any.

CNYCacher

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2011, 11:33:31 AM »
Someone made something VERY similar for the Ruger 10/22 a few years ago.  They received the exact same form letter from the ATF, then sold a ton of units. Sometime later the ATF decided "Oops, those are illegal now!", raided the manufacturers for customer records.  The records were used to send threatening letters telling customers to mail the ATF the spring that was inside the stock or else be charged with possession of a machine gun.
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

AJ Dual

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2011, 11:52:21 AM »
Someone made something VERY similar for the Ruger 10/22 a few years ago.  They received the exact same form letter from the ATF, then sold a ton of units. Sometime later the ATF decided "Oops, those are illegal now!", raided the manufacturers for customer records.  The records were used to send threatening letters telling customers to mail the ATF the spring that was inside the stock or else be charged with possession of a machine gun.

The Akins accelerator supposedly got messed up in that because it had spring action in the stock near the trigger group and action of the 10/22 rifle.

So while the finger still hit the trigger bump fire style, it was supposedly part of the rifle's operating action in some way, because the action and barrel could move within the stock, and therefore made it an MG.

The slide-fire is soley contained in the roughly AR pattern stock, and the whole rifle moves as a unit, so the ATF is (for now) regarding this as not being demonstrably different than bump fire done completely by hand.

Of course, that is until they change their minds.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2011, 12:11:44 PM »
Someone made something VERY similar for the Ruger 10/22 a few years ago.  They received the exact same form letter from the ATF, then sold a ton of units. Sometime later the ATF decided "Oops, those are illegal now!", raided the manufacturers for customer records.  The records were used to send threatening letters telling customers to mail the ATF the spring that was inside the stock or else be charged with possession of a machine gun.

It's the Akins Accelerator, and the story has gotten a bit skewed.  Questionable operation of the test unit, lots of creative interpretation of the ATF's original letter, plenty of righteous indignation, and a healthy disgust with the ATF in general has created a mythos around the product.  Unfortuntely it's become such a hot-button issue that trying to discuss it rationally (especially the legal technicalities of product performance and wording in the "approval" letter") is a useless waste of time.

Brad
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Balog

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2011, 12:16:23 PM »
I'm not sure why anyone would pay hundreds for a device that's likely to be banned by F-Troop at some point, in order to duplicate something you can do for free with poor technique and some practice.
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AJ Dual

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2011, 01:26:22 PM »
I'm not sure why anyone would pay hundreds for a device that's likely to be banned by F-Troop at some point, in order to duplicate something you can do for free with poor technique and some practice.

Because the market, it flows like water, always finding cracks and new opportunities.

All this stuff, Hellfire triggers, trigger cranks etc. only even exists because of the MG freeze poison pill amendment to the '86 FOPA. If that ever get struck down, and the ATF is forced to re-open the registry, they'll dry up overnight. Or at least be seriously reduced in prominence.

The only market for them will be people too lazy or impatient to pay the $200 NFA tax for the real deal. 
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CNYCacher

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2011, 02:46:10 PM »
Because the market, it flows like water, always finding cracks and new opportunities.

All this stuff, Hellfire triggers, trigger cranks etc. only even exists because of the MG freeze poison pill amendment to the '86 FOPA. If that ever get struck down, and the ATF is forced to re-open the registry, they'll dry up overnight. Or at least be seriously reduced in prominence.

The only market for them will be people too lazy or impatient to pay the $200 NFA tax for the real deal. 

On those of us in a handful of states where NFA is outright banned
On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?" I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

PTK

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2011, 03:42:14 PM »
I love products like these. They make finding huge piles of once-fired brass that much easier! :laugh:
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

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coppertales

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2011, 04:51:01 PM »
My neighbor at my camp has one.  it works pretty good.  Expensive though.....chris3

AJ Dual

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2011, 04:56:47 PM »
The only conceivable practical use I can think of is to simulate FA fire and get ner-do-wells to skedaddle faster if SHTF.

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PTK

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2011, 05:14:01 PM »
From what I've seen on YouTube, it seems a decent trigger and rubber bands would do the same thing for an AR15? I just can't see spending $350 on one... I love the piles of brass, as I've said, but that seems to be more a benefit for me than the buyer. =D
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"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

sanglant

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2011, 05:41:23 PM »
wouldn't it be the same thing as, taking the "hold off"(think that's what it's called, at any rate the thing that holds the stock at a fixed length) out of a normal ar-15 stock, and adding a heavier spring? ???

birdman

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2011, 06:18:36 PM »
wouldn't it be the same thing as, taking the "hold off"(think that's what it's called, at any rate the thing that holds the stock at a fixed length) out of a normal ar-15 stock, and adding a heavier spring? ???

No, the grip needs to stay with the stock, while trigger and receiver need to move backwards (thereby allowing forward pressure on the foregrip to bring the trigger back forward against the finger.  By doing so with forward manual pressure and not a spring (eg the accelerator), it meets the manual action per discharge requirement.

sanglant

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2011, 07:07:04 PM »
ah, i see. =) was thinking you could just limp wrist the pistol grip. :facepalm:

Balog

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2011, 09:36:17 PM »
Aj: or the folks who don't want to give f-troop access to their home to "inspect" the nfa items.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

AJ Dual

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2011, 12:46:20 AM »
Aj: or the folks who don't want to give f-troop access to their home to "inspect" the nfa items.

Yes, there is that.  ;)
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PTK

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Re: "Slide-fire"/bump fire
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2011, 01:10:05 AM »
Have any of you ever heard of anyone ever having any official inspect any NFA items as a non-FFL? I haven't, but I'd love to hear of any such tales. Thus far, it seems to be much-discussed but hasn't ever happened, nor would it be legal as the law is currently.
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."