Age Discrimination in the Open: What does the employer expect from prospects?

[roo_ster]

http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/2011/11/its-nice-to-see-age-discrimination-out.html

I guess this employer just wants code monkeys? 

What do you all think? (about the employer objectives & expectations)


I am not quite middle aged and would qualify under "up to 15 years work experience" if I didn't list any high school/college jobs and fudged my time in the military.  But, as someone who has lead systems & software engineers, I wonder at what the employer expects from these folks.

When I have a shiny, new graduate BS, MS, PhD (with no professional experience) I know that (no matter how bright & eager, no matter how prestigious their schooling) I need to give them a narrow, well-defined task (hold the ambiguity).  They can be handy, but need constant course-correction and a very focused objective.  About only exception is if the employee has some military experience of E-4 & beyond.  They can usually handle more complexity.

More experienced employees I lead can handle much more ambiguity and I can give less-detailed instruction and usually rely on them to make shinola happen in the most efficient manner.

The most experienced technical employees I can say (roughly), "I'm leading this train, but in your subject matter area I am pretty much ignorant.  Let us figure out how we can make this happen."

[RoadKingLarry]

Basically they want to hire PhD level training and pay McD level wages.

[vaskidmark]

In addition, you will keep abreast of innovations in both commercial and academic institutions, provide detailed assessments of competitive products, and communicate solutions to other research and development staff, Sybase consultants, and directly to customers.

Being a completly non-tech/non-computer person I read the above as needing to keep up with HS and undergrad-aged folks whose thumbs are remarkable opposable (at least from my non-touch-typing perspective).  There are not going to be many 30+ year olds, let alone 50+, who could meet that job requirement.  And quite frankly if someone over 30 was "hanging out" with HS/undergrad kids the creep factor would be way beyond icky.

From a purely HR perspective I see the wording as trying a bit too hard to "avoid the appearance of" age discrimination, and trying way too hard to suggest that the position could be either an entry-level job for someone with a shiney new BS or a mid- to senior-level guy-with-a-tie job.  EE(OC is not going to like this any better than will AARP.

stay safe.

[Fitz]

As a side note, it bothers the crap out of me just how many "IT" people have NO capacity to figure things out on their own. Any strange error or unexpected behavior leads to a call to Microsoft, NetApp, or Cisco...

I am a system engineer II... and I am CONTINUALLY doing the job of the two system engineer III's we have in Detroit. And I don't have more experience than them, I just have the ability to figure *expletive deleted*it out!

Annoys me to no end.

And you know what? When i DON'T know something, I consult google, and figure it out.

Many people rebuild things at that point. UN-freaking-acceptable.

[41magsnub]

As a side note, it bothers the crap out of me just how many "IT" people have NO capacity to figure things out on their own. Any strange error or unexpected behavior leads to a call to Microsoft, NetApp, or Cisco...

I am a system engineer II... and I am CONTINUALLY doing the job of the two system engineer III's we have in Detroit. And I don't have more experience than them, I just have the ability to figure *expletive deleted* out!

Annoys me to no end.

And you know what? When i DON'T know something, I consult google, and figure it out.

Many people rebuild things at that point. UN-freaking-acceptable.

A-friggin-Men.  If I end up on the phone with Microsoft it is because something went horribly horribly wrong where I spend the first several hours convincing the first 2 levels of support they really need to escalate this to a real engineer and they are writing hotfixes for me.

Staff learn real quick that the easiest way to piss me off is to ask me how to do something, and when I ask back "what have you tried before coming to me?"  the answer is nothing.  I don't answer questions, I give pointers to the resources they should be using to find the answer themselves.  Frequently I find myself helping people with basic troubleshooting skills.  Folks don't seem to be able to step back, think "ok, what other things need to work for the thing I am working on to function?"  Then work back from there on those dependencies until the source of the problem is found.

And of course there are the easy problems where you throw the exact error message you get in google and the first link fixes it.  When a tech comes to me looking for help and this solves their problem...  that is when I get in trouble for not being nice.

[Fitz]

A-friggin-Men.  If I end up on the phone with Microsoft it is because something went horribly horribly wrong where I spend the first several hours convincing the first 2 levels of support they really need to escalate this to a real engineer and they are writing hotfixes for me.

Staff learn real quick that the easiest way to piss me off is to ask me how to do something, and when I ask back "what have you tried before coming to me?"  the answer is nothing.  I don't answer questions, I give pointers to the resources they should be using to find the answer themselves.  Frequently I find myself helping people with basic troubleshooting skills.  Folks don't seem to be able to step back, think "ok, what other things need to work for the thing I am working on to function?"  Then work back from there on those dependencies until the source of the problem is found.

And of course there are the easy problems where you throw the exact error message you get in google and the first link fixes it.  When a tech comes to me looking for help and this solves their problem...  that is when I get in trouble for not being nice.

You would be appalled at how often my "superiors" on our system is detroit throw me a problem.... that the first or second link on google solves.

[Stetson]

I was just offered a position at a much higher level of pay than where I am now SPECIFICALLY because I know how to troubleshoot VS. canned standard responses/fixes.  I don't know where I can go from there but I am going to get hands on with switches and routers and I have little experience there now.

[cambeul41]

Fitz --
 
Perhaps it is Detroit. I am a 70 year old college faculty member in the city, and I spend all too much time teaching 20+ year old students how use the computer to do their assignments. ("Have you heard of Google?"  "Go the Google and . . . . "  "This takes you to a wizard." "Fill in the blanks in the wizard, then . . . .")

[Fitz]

Funny thing is: i am reasonably sure they'd move me up there if i would allow it...

Despite the absolutely ABSURD things i said I'd require in order to go up there... like 110k salary and 20k for relocation. LOL

[Northwoods]

Employers will often look for folks with different levels of experience.  I usually see this expressed as minimum levels of education/experience.  I don't usually see maximums.  Those usually get imposed by limiting the salary, and if someone with a lot more experience than desired (or budgeted for) makes to the interview process it's not that hard to weed them out on the initial phone call, or at the on-site interview.