Author Topic: Bullet drift in wind  (Read 16392 times)

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,987
Bullet drift in wind
« on: December 14, 2011, 11:48:24 PM »
Anyone have any good, concrete links for bullet drift in wind?

Specifically, any these loads:

55gr .223
62gr .223 M855
69gr BTHP .223
77gr BTHP .223
80gr BTHP .223

147gr FMJ .308
168gr BTHP .308
175gr BTHP .308

Distances:  200 yards, 300 yards, 500 yards, and 600 yards.  1000 yards might be welcome in the future.

I know that I'm missing velocity data for the bullets above.  Let's assume I'm shooting a relatively high velocity handload intended for match competition.

I'm looking to find out the windage adjustment at 200/300/500/600 for each of the above loads, for a 10mph full value wind and a 20mph full value wind.

I have a "general" formula I've been working off of:
.308 = (# of 100 yard increments to target) * (increments of 10mph of full value cross wind) = # MOA to adjust into the wind
.223 = (# of 100 yard increments to target) * (increments of 7mph of full value cross wind) = # MOA to adjust into the wind

So, shooting .308 at 300 yards with a 20mph crosswind, you have:
(3 for 3 x 100 yard increments to target) * (2 for 2 x 10mph full value croswind) = 3 * 2 = 6MOA adjustment into the wind... or the bullet is blown 18 inches by the wind in 300 yards.

Shooting .223 at 500 yards with a 14mph crosswind, you have:
(5 for 5 x 100 yard increments to target) * (2 for 2 x 7mph full value crosswind) = 5 * 2 = 10MOA adjustment into the wind... or the bullet is blown about 50 inches by the wind at 500 yards.

These are supposed to be for ball ammo (147gr .308 and 55gr or 62gr .223), and "good enough" to keep a person in a 4MOA target to 500 yards.  I need to get more precise than this, I need to stretch this to 600 yards, and I need it for heavier match quality ammo that drifts less in the wind.

I've been running 69gr BTHP .223 under the assumption it will be as efficient as 147gr ball .308 (1 MOA per 10mph crosswind rather than 1 MOA per 7mph).  Keeping me pretty close, but in strong winds it doesn't seem to be quite enough hold into the wind.  Either that, or my wind estimation skills are off.  Or both.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2011, 12:03:53 AM »
I have the Nightforce ballistics software, which is excellent. I can give you the values if you give me a muzzle velocity. If I plug the right numbers into it, the shots are almost always dead on.

Northwoods

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,386
  • Formerly sumpnz
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2011, 01:17:40 AM »
I have a "general" formula I've been working off of:
.308 = (# of 100 yard increments to target) * (increments of 10mph of full value cross wind) = # MOA to adjust into the wind
.223 = (# of 100 yard increments to target) * (increments of 7mph of full value cross wind) = # MOA to adjust into the wind

It's not a linear equation like you're assuming.
Formerly sumpnz

Chuck Dye

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,560
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2011, 01:43:16 AM »
The Norma ballistics program will do it.  Set the sliders for the ammo and conditions, the wind drift is displayed in a box in the header.

http://ballistics.norma.cc/javapage_US2.asp?Lang=2

Note the define your own function.
Gee, I'd love to see your data!

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2011, 01:55:57 AM »
If you want to get really precise with the Nightforce software, you need other variables such as altitude, barometric pressure, humidity, and other really fanatical stuff. I assume you don't have all that handy.

BobR

  • Just a pup compared to a few old dogs here!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,322
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 03:54:15 AM »
If you have an Android you can also get an app called "Shooter" for it. I have been very impressed with it. I believe there is also an app for the i'phone. But, then again, you will need to know your muzzle velocity.

bob

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2011, 08:06:23 AM »
I use ballistic FTE for iPhone and it's been pretty good so far...easy to use, has factory loads, and a whole mess of bullets, does g1 and g7, and can even use the internal inclinometer of the iPhone to measure LOS angle.

bedlamite

  • Hold my beer and watch this!
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,817
  • Ack! PLBTTPHBT!
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2011, 08:12:39 AM »
Point blank will do it and it's free, although I haven't been able to get the new version 2.0 to run on Ubuntu.

http://www.huntingnut.com/
A plan is just a list of things that doesn't happen.
Is defenestration possible through the overton window?

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,987
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2011, 08:30:16 AM »
It's not a linear equation like you're assuming.

I'm sure the "true" value is potentially extremely complicated.

However, I need something that I can use in my head in the 30 seconds between shots at a 500 or 600 yard high power match.  The current formula I described isn't cutting it.  It's keeping me on paper and in the black 95% of the time in moderate winds (I score 165-170 out of 200 in 10-20mph winds that shift around or have a quartering vector), and pretty darn well in light breeze (I scored a 189 recently in a light sub 5mph breeze).  I need to pick up my game in moderate wind situations.

And I don't want to use my Android phone to calc every shot.  

I need something trustworthy to put me in the 9 ring or greater out to 600 yards in a 20mph environment (9 ring is approximately 3MOA accuracy).

Googling brought me this:  Jeff Hoffman's Wind Formula.

http://www.millettsights.com/downloads/JeffHoffmanWindFormula.pdf

For .223:
Start with an assumed 10mph wind, and divide by 10.  Give 1 MOA hold per 100 yards.  Basically, this means assume a 5MOA hold for 500 yards.  Then, multiply that hold by your estimation of the "real" wind.  If it is 15mph, then hold 7.5MOA.  Then, if it is a quartering wind blowing at an angle, multiply by 0.75.  That gives you a 6MOA hold for the 500 yard shot with .223 in a 15mph half value wind.

For .308:
Start with an assumed 10mph wind, and divide by 10.  Give 1 MOA hold per 100 yards, but subtract 1 from this number.  This means a 4MOA hold for 500 yards.  Then, multiply that hold by your estimation of the real wind.  If it is 15mph, then hold 6MOA.  Then, if it is a quartering wind blowing at an angle, multiply by 0.75.  That gives you a 4.5MOA hold for the 500 yard shot with .308 in a 15mph half value wind.

Using my previous quick-n-dirty formula, I was holding:
.223 =   5MOA (for 500 yards) * 2 (for a 15mph wind) * 0.5 (for half value wind) = 5MOA
.308 =   5MOA (for 500 yards) * 1.5 (for a 15mph wind) * 0.5 (for half value wind) = 3.75MOA


And I've basically been under-adjusting in windy environments where my estimation of the wind is that it is quartering.  I notice that my old formula uses an 0.5 multiplier for a quartering wind, while the Hoffman formula uses 0.75 for that environment.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 08:36:41 AM by AZRedhawk44 »
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2011, 12:32:23 PM »
OK. The following assumes a scope or sight 1.5" above the barrel, a sight-in distance of 200 yards, zero incline, wind from 3 o' clock, altitude 0' above sea level, temperature 59 degrees, humidity 50% and pressure 29.92. I'm using Sierra for ballistic coefficients. For velocity, I'm using 2800 for .223 and 2500 for .308.

55 gr HPBT, ballistic coefficient .185:
velocity 2800 fps
10 mph wind
adjustments:
100 yards 1.75 MOA
200 yards 3.75 MOA
300 yards 6.5 MOA
500 yards 12.75 MOA
600 yards 16.25 MOA
1000 yards 27.75 MOA

62 grain HPBT, BC .231:
adjustments:
100 yards 1.25 MOA
200 yards 3.00 MOA
300 yards 4.75 MOA
500 yards 9.50 MOA
600 yards 12.25 MOA
1000 yards 22.25 MOA

69 grain HPBT, BC .301:
adjustments:
100 yards 1.00 MOA
200 yards 2.25 MOA
300 yards 3.50 MOA
500 yards 6.75 MOA
600 yards 8.50 MOA
1000 yards 16.75 MOA

77 grain HPBT BC .372
adjustments:
100 yards .75 MOA
200 yards 1.75 MOA
300 yards 2.75 MOA
500 yards 5.00 MOA
600 yards 6.50 MOA
1000 yards 12.75 MOA

80 grain HPBT, BC .420
adjustments
100 yards .75 MOA
200 yards 1.50 MOA
300 yards 2.50 MOA
500 yards 3.75 MOA
600 yards 5.50 MOA
1000 yards 10.75 MOA

147 grain HPBT, BC .397
adjustments
100 yards 1.00 MOA
200 yards 2.00 MOA
300 yards 3.00 MOA
500 yards 5.50 MOA
600 yards 7.00 MOA
1000 yards 13.25 MOA

168 grain HPBT, BC .447
adjustments
100 yards .75 MOA
200 yards 1.75 MOA
300 yards 2.75 MOA
500 yards 4.75 MOA
600 yards 6.00 MOA
1000 yards 11.50 MOA

175 grain HPBT, BC .496
adjustments
100 yards .75 MOA
200 yards 1.50 MOA
300 yards 2.25 MOA
500 yards 4.25 MOA
600 yards 5.25 MOA
1000 yards 10.00 MOA

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,987
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2011, 01:31:04 PM »
Quote
69 grain HPBT, BC .301:
adjustments:
100 yards 1.00 MOA
200 yards 2.25 MOA
300 yards 3.50 MOA
500 yards 6.75 MOA
600 yards 8.50 MOA
1000 yards 16.75 MOA

77 grain HPBT BC .372
adjustments:
100 yards .75 MOA
200 yards 1.75 MOA
300 yards 2.75 MOA
500 yards 5.00 MOA
600 yards 6.50 MOA
1000 yards 12.75 MOA

Thanks.

The above confirms that my one and only miss last weekend (1.25 inches outside the 5 ring @ 500 yards, or a miss from the center of the X by about 19 inches) would have been a 6 or 7 ring hit had I sent the same shot with 77gr ammo rather than 69gr ammo.

(shot with 69gr, bullet moves 6.75 MOA @ 10mph crosswind @ 500 yards = 33.75 inches, while a 77gr move 5 MOA @ 10mph crosswind at 500 yards = 25 inches... 8.75 inches inwards on the target.  The wind only switched on the last half of the distance down range and I was dialed 5MOA "in" to the wind as I read it.  So I moved 2.5MOA into the wind correctly, but about 3.5MOA in the wrong direction due to the wind switch, resulting in being 3.5 MOA off... half the scoring bull, just outside the 5 ring.  Had I been shooting 77's, I would have dialed 5 MOA into the wind, had correct windage for 2.5 of that and incorrect windage for the other 2.5, putting me 2.5 MOA off center.  That's a 7 or 8 ring hit.

69gr:

X---10---9---8---7---6---5-x

77gr would have been here:
X---10---9---8--x7---6---5


Target = 7MOA with white 5 ring, about 36 inches across.  Moving inwards 8.75 inches puts me at (37.25 inches - 8.75 inches) 28.25 inches from center.  That's on the outer edge of the 6 ring just on the edge of the black.  I had a R-L 10mph crosswind that completely reversed on me halfway downrange as I was getting into position and I didn't see it until I broke cheek weld after the shot had already gone down range. I knew I had basically shot with the wind helping to push me the last half of the distance off target.  Heavier bullets would mean less windage dialed in the first place, along with less negative affect from an erroneous or missed wind call.  Alas, stuck on 69's until my White Oak arrives...)



Interestingly:

Your data for 77gr:
100 yards .75 MOA
200 yards 1.75 MOA
300 yards 2.75 MOA
500 yards 5.00 MOA
600 yards 6.50 MOA
1000 yards 12.75 MOA

Using the Hoffman formula, I come up with:
100 = 1(for hundreds of yards) x 1 (for 10mph wind) x 1 (for full value wind) = 1 MOA
200 = 2 x 1 x 1 = 2 MOA
300 = 3 x 1 x 1 = 3 MOA
500 = 5 x 1 x 1 = 5 MOA
600 = 5 x 1 x 1 = 6 MOA
1000 = 10 x 1 x 1 = 10 MOA

Doesn't seem to be insufficient until out to 600 yards, and starts to lose its accuracy significantly at 1000.  At least for 77gr.

It appears that at 500 yards, though, Hoffman isn't gonna cut it for 69gr ammo.  Compare the Hoffman above, to your data:

Quote
69 grain HPBT, BC .301:
adjustments:
100 yards 1.00 MOA
200 yards 2.25 MOA
300 yards 3.50 MOA
500 yards 6.75 MOA
600 yards 8.50 MOA
1000 yards 16.75 MOA

It's off by 1.75 MOA (almost 1/3 of the target) at 500, and 2.5MOA at 600 (nearly half).

If I augment Hoffman and change my fundamental assumption of holdoff for 10mph wind when using 69's... I guess I'd use distance + 33%, then 1 MOA per 100 yards of that calc'ed distance for a 10mph full value wind.

100 = 1.33 * 1 * 1 = 1.25 (off by 0.25)
200 = 2.66 * 1 * 1 = 2.5 (off by 0.25)
300 = 4 * 1 * 1 = 4 (off by 0.5)
500 = 6.67 * 1 * 1 = 6.5 (off by 0.25)
600 = 8 * 1 * 1 = 8 (off by 0.5)

Or, stating it differently... add 1/3 more windage than I'd use if I were using a 77gr bullet, or 147gr .308.  At least for the 500 and 600 yard targets.  The effect of wind increases at longer distance, and adding 33% to 100/200/300 yard targets introduces error.


I had always just assumed about a 10% difference in windage efficiency between 69gr and 77gr bullets.  I had no idea it was as extreme as your data shows.  Thanks, Dick.  I'll spitball with 69gr, adding 33% to my current windage numbers.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 01:46:51 PM by AZRedhawk44 »
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2011, 02:04:53 PM »
I am a bullet on the wind ...
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2011, 06:31:41 PM »
AZRedhawk44, if you can provide the coefficient for the bullet you're using, and even a guess as to velocity, I can run it again.

I did a lot of research before buying that software, and it gets rave reviews. I zeroed my .308 at 100 yards, plugged in all of the information, got the adjustments for 500 yards, shot, and it was right in the center of the 5" bullseye target I'd printed.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,987
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2011, 12:39:38 AM »
2800-ish for my load is probably a bit slow.  Call it 3050 for the 69gr HPBT.  My cases are showing about 50/50 for flattened primers and I'm above some published loads for my components, and below other published loads for the same components.  I'm actually thinking of backing it down a bit.  It does shoot well, though.

Again, I don't have a chrony.  Just spitballing speed based on load data from various sources, and their chrony results.

I'll probably slow it down to 2900-2950.


I'll try out the new modified wind formula from this thread, tomorrow.  1MOA wind hold per 100 yards per 10mph full value wind.  75% for quartering wind, rather than 50%.  And add 33% more hold for 69gr than 77gr, at 500 yards.
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Monkeyleg

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,589
  • Tattaglia is a pimp.
    • http://www.gunshopfinder.com
Re: Bullet drift in wind
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2011, 11:24:17 AM »
OK. Using 2950 as the velocity for the 69 gr, I get this (using the same other variables as I gave above)

69 grain HPBT, BC .301:
adjustments:
100 yards 1.00 MOA
200 yards 2.00 MOA
300 yards 3.25 MOA
500 yards 6.25 MOA
600 yards 8.00 MOA
1000 yards 16.00 MOA

Not a lot of difference.

With 3050, I get this

69 grain HPBT, BC .301:
adjustments:
100 yards 1.00 MOA
200 yards 2.00 MOA
300 yards 3.00 MOA
500 yards 5.75 MOA
600 yards 7.50 MOA
1000 yards 15.25 MOA