weighty memento

[roo_ster]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/9618342/Weighty-memento-war-veterans-secret-revealed-after-his-death.html

Family of ww2 vet only discovers truth of his greivous war wound after his cremation.

Do mash the link.  The image hauls the freight.

[RoadKingLarry]

I'm a little skeptical about the picture at least. There is some pretty modern looking hardware in that pile.

[Regolith]

I'm a little skeptical about the picture at least. There is some pretty modern looking hardware in that pile.

I'm wondering if they burned him in a wood coffin; maybe some of it is from that? I'd imagine the wood screws are, at least.

[brimic]

I'm wondering if they burned him in a wood coffin; maybe some of it is from that? I'd imagine the wood screws are, at least.

Quite possible. Could be a lot of staples that held the box and lining together...
I spent a few hours chatting with the Amish man who makes my furniture, he had started in on the casket business.
From what I learned, Caskets used for cremation have a removable interior- either heavy cardboard or in his products, particle board, which the fabric lining is attached to. At cremation, the inner box is removed and burned and the outer casket is reused several times. He said the few large commercial outfits tend to use cheaper cardboard, but he prefers particle board which holds together much better if the corpse gets runny or is extra heavy.

[French G.]

I am way skeptical of the picture. Modern hardware, nothing deformed by explosion or 70 years in a body. Perhaps the metal that was in him is in there, but I'm kinda skeptical of things that look like a binder clip. Many of the items pictured are made from cheap steel, already blast damaged they would have eroded in the body.

[Devonai]

...but he prefers particle board which holds together much better if the corpse gets runny...

 

[K Frame]

Not a single piece of actual shrapnel in that pile. In fact, there seems to be the bail for a binder clip in there.

[Perd Hapley]

God put those things inside his body to test our faith.

[kgbsquirrel]

I see one piece that might be shrapnel. Bottom front, slightly to the right, looks almost like a mangled primer cup.


For the morbidly curious, here's what shrapnel (or, more accurately, casing splinters) looks like. It's pretty much just heavy jagged chunks of metal. The largest piece in my hand still had threading from where the rocket parts were screwed together.

[Regolith]

I see one piece that might be shrapnel. Bottom front, slightly to the right, looks almost like a mangled primer cup.


For the morbidly curious, here's what shrapnel (or, more accurately, casing splinters) looks like. It's pretty much just heavy jagged chunks of metal. The largest piece in my hand still had threading from where the rocket parts were screwed together.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n149/Yaivenov/Me/IMG_0149.jpg

There's another piece at the top right that might be, too. Kind of a flattened piece of metal.

Also I didn't know Uncle Sam let you guys wear blue jeans.

[kgbsquirrel]

There's another piece at the top right that might be, too. Kind of a flattened piece of metal.

Also I didn't know Uncle Sam let you guys wear blue jeans.

That was a DOD civi working in the TOC.

[vaskidmark]

Yes, there are some strange artifacts in there, but the majority does look similar to notched wound-wire fragments.  I'm just not sure the Chermanns used notched wire in any of their land mines.  Back then most 'splodey stuff was segmented in fairly large chunks - think pineapple grenade.  About mid-way through WWII the Nazis developed a heavy sleeve, that looked very much like the pineapple grenade, to be slipped over the sheet-steel can of the potato-masher to provide more fragments instead of relying primarily on the shock wave to do the damage.  There's nothing available in a short search indicating they used notched wound wire.

Now, about those fragments looking like notched wound-wire fragments.  Using that wood screw (at almost dead center bottom) and the binder clip-looking piece as rough guides of two inches, the fragments seem to be fairly uniformly two to three times as long, making them four to six inches.  That's waaay to long for wire-wound fragments, which in modern grenades are about one inch long.  (Reducing the length of the guides to one inch just makes things worse.)  Also, the wire that is used for wound-wire 'splodey things is actually more like a ribbon than plain round wire.

I have no reason to believe that Sergeant Brown was not wounded by an anti-personnel mine and that he carried shrapnel for the rest of his life.  I just have some reason to believe that was is depicted is not WWII German anti-personnel mine shrapnel.

stay safe.

[MicroBalrog]

Guys, I'm sorry to be rude, but I do know that there exists a range of various mines and munitions that did use wound, segmented wire to form shrapnel. The wire would be wound around the explosive during the manufacturing of the mine or grenade, and then during detonation it would break up into its segments.

Add to this the fact Nazi Germany had dozens of separate models of landmine, and also used captured Soviet mines, not to mention German combat engineers often improvised mines... it's quite possible a mine that used such wire existed at some point.

[geronimotwo]

i have to agree with the skepticism shown above, and will add that the heat used to break down bones would likely melt any lead objects (if a "bullet").  however, it would appear there are a few bits that could be shrapnel.  no awards to the mortuary for not removing the staples and screws.  (although phillips head screws were around as early as the 30's)

[MicroBalrog]

i have to agree with the skepticism shown above, and will add that the heat used to break down bones would likely melt any lead objects.  however, it would appear there are a few bits that could be shrapnel.  poo on the mortuary for not removing the staples and screws.

A lot of landmines and grenades use steel, not lead. Soviet RGD-42 (although not German, but a contemporary weapon nonetheless) used steel to form the wire.

[MicroBalrog]

P.S. Wikipedia suggests cremation is typically carried out at a temperature of 870-980 Celsius. I imagine at least some steel objects could survive this while preserving a rough semblance of their old shape (steel melting temperature varies but is (again according to the Internet, i am not an industry professional) typically 1200 C or over.

[Perd Hapley]

Using that wood screw (at almost dead center bottom) and the binder clip-looking piece as rough guides of two inches, the fragments seem to be fairly uniformly two to three times as long, making them four to six inches.  That's waaay to long for wire-wound fragments, which in modern grenades are about one inch long.  (Reducing the length of the guides to one inch just makes things worse.)  Also, the wire that is used for wound-wire 'splodey things is actually more like a ribbon than plain round wire.

Screws and binder clips come in various sizes.

[MechAg94]

I understand the skepticism, but the Germans did make box mines and wooden mines.  What screws and such did those use?

Could some of those be medical screws?

[MechAg94]

This link has a note near the bottom about the shrapnel used. 

http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/german/homefront/betty.php

Courtesy of a link on Sig Forum that came up.

1.First, the mine was fired 2 ft 10 inches to 4 ft 10 inches up into the air by a small propellant charge.   2.Second Approximately a half-second later, the main charge detonated at the optimum height to kill or severely injure anyone in the immediate area.   3.Third The main charge of the mine was surrounded by roughly 360 steel balls, short steel rods, or scrap metal pieces. These became metal shrapnel that sprayed horizontally from the mine at high velocity.

[vaskidmark]

Screws and binder clips come in various sizes.

You will not get an argument out of me on those points.  I just suggested a size for the objects to use as a comparison to the length of the wire pieces, and then an observation about the probability of pieces that length being from a mine.

We are all playing guessing games.  I'm just trying to see if I can construct soe hints to lead me to a more-than-likely answer.

This link has a note near the bottom about the shrapnel used. 

http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/german/homefront/betty.php

Courtesy of a link on Sig Forum that came up.

Which would not give you wire fragments.  Besides the ball bearings you would get jagged-edged pieces of the can.

I'm no expert - not by a far shot.  But I'm just having some difficulty in seeing those pieces as mine shrapnel fragments.

Would one of the JBTs from BATEFEIEIO who regularly monitors this site please ask your experts to weigh in?  Thanks.

stay safe.

[MechAg94]

Why would you expect heavy jagged chunks of metal from a small anti personnel mine?    Especially a mass produced one.  Also, the link mentioned steel rods and scrap metal.  I doubt it would be heavy rebar and who knows what the scrap metal would be.