Author Topic: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader  (Read 3716 times)

Marnoot

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12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« on: October 19, 2012, 03:40:57 PM »
12 year-old girl was home alone, called her mom when the guy started trying to break in, mom told her to grab a gun:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22617747&nid=148&title=oklahoma-12-year-old-shoots-intruder

This brings up something I've thought about before. You have kids, you have your guns in safes, quick-access or otherwise. At what age do you trust them with the combination to a safe with a loaded gun for just such a situation? Don't do it at all? Go by their level of responsibility?

AZRedhawk44

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2012, 03:49:04 PM »
12 year-old girl was home alone, called her mom when the guy started trying to break in, mom told her to grab a gun:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22617747&nid=148&title=oklahoma-12-year-old-shoots-intruder

This brings up something I've thought about before. You have kids, you have your guns in safes, quick-access or otherwise. At what age do you trust them with the combination to a safe with a loaded gun for just such a situation? Don't do it at all? Go by their level of responsibility?

No kids here, but I intend to return any of mine that I don't trust with guns by age 13 as "defective" and get a refund or a new one. =)
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kgbsquirrel

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2012, 03:56:32 PM »
12 year-old girl was home alone, called her mom when the guy started trying to break in, mom told her to grab a gun:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=22617747&nid=148&title=oklahoma-12-year-old-shoots-intruder

This brings up something I've thought about before. You have kids, you have your guns in safes, quick-access or otherwise. At what age do you trust them with the combination to a safe with a loaded gun for just such a situation? Don't do it at all? Go by their level of responsibility?

Around the same time I was given my BB gun I was told where Mom kept an old deringer/boot knife set (at the time it was the only gun they owned) and told point blank to leave it the hell alone unless they told me it was okay. Considering I had already been shooting .22's in the Cub Scouts and could go out in the yard and shoot my BB gun any time I felt like, the whole novelty/taboo allure thing was non-present for me.

My personal timeline:

Age
8: First instruction in shooting BB guns. Given first pocket knife.
10: Instruction in firearms handling, cleaning and shooting .22LR single shot bolt actions.
11: Given my own BB gun. (Dad wanted it to be a .22 but we lived in a city.)
14: Instructed in how to shoot pistols.

I personally felt rather comfortable with this progression.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 03:59:50 PM by kgbsquirrel »

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2012, 04:00:28 PM »
Quote
Go by their level of responsibility?



Mary Carpenter
April 20,2001

North Carolina General Assembly
To Whom It May Concern,

To my understanding you are debating the passage of laws requiring trigger locks and mandatory storage of guns. I am a second generation resident of the State of California, a mother and a grieving grandmother. I wish to express to you how trigger locks and mandatory storage laws in the State of California affected my family. I hope my testimony may save someone in your state from sharing the pain we must now endure for the remainder of our lives. No law you can pass will keep the irresponsible from shooting accidents or a felon from stealing a gun. I am enclosing a portion of a letter I wrote to my own state legislators concerning the constant progression of laws restricting our guns in my state.

Depending on whether or not you truly care, you may or may not recognize my name. I am the paternal grandmother of the two children who were brutally murdered inside their rural Merced California home on August 23, 2000 by a stranger with a pitchfork.

Instead of suing gun manufacturers, I am of the opinion it is our lawmakers who need to be sued. It was you who created the laws that kept my grandchildren from being able to defend themselves with any weapon greater than their bare hands. All of my son's children had been trained in the use of firearms but were unable to get to their Dad's weapon because of California State Law.

You, who have CCW permits or armed body guards, or both expect me to face a society gone mad because of drug altered brains and lax laws on the perpetrators of crime? You had no room in your prisons for the killer of my grandchildren though his wife had reported to the police in Mojave California in June of 1997 that he had forced her and their infant son into his car (kidnapping) while living in southern California? At that time she also reported how she had managed to escape from him in Mojave after he held a gun to her head (assault with a deadly weapon) threatening to kill her and their one-month-old child?

Though more recently she had given to the Dos Palos California Police Dept. the tape from her message minder threatening to kill her present husband? Though he had assaulted a police officer while resisting arrest for drug charges? Though he had violated his parole by not appearing at his hearing and they had a warrant out for his arrest? Though they knew where he lived, and also his mother and grandmother, yet failed to pick him up? Will you then find room for my son in your prisons should his fourteen year old daughter have access to his gun while she is babysitting her siblings?

There is a growing list, in my area alone, of people (mostly women) who might still be alive had they not been in a state where the use of a gun was prohibited.

Juli Sund, Carole Sund, Selvina Pelosso, Joie Armstrong, Ashley and John William Carpenter to name a few. Lawmakers talk big about a woman's right to choose yet don't allow me the very basic right to choose to defend myself? If teachers were allowed to carry a concealed weapon to school you would see the school shootings disappear. The same is true with the citizen on the street. The reason is, these killers are cowards. You can tell by their choice of victims. They operate best where they know there are no guns.

Look at your child tonight and imagine him or her with their eyes jabbed out, their skulls splintered, their brains pierced, and their spines broken with the heavy tines of a spading fork. In defending her sisters to the death with the only weapon you allowed her, Ashley had 138 puncture wounds. Twenty-nine of them were on the right side of her face, five on the back of her head, and thirty-seven to her chest and lower neck. (Obviously he was trying to behead her.) She was nine years old. While committing no crime greater than sleeping in his parents bed, in his own house, John William, 7 years old, was stabbed 46 times, with most of them in the chest, neck, and head. Depending on the condition of your heart, you may or may not feel a small measure of the pain my family and I must endure for the remainder of our lives.

Now, imagine all the gun laws you can dream up and honestly admit whether or not they would have stopped such a mad dog as this. This man was a total stranger to the family, and other than a trace of marijuana, was not on drugs at the time. However, by the testimony of his wife and girlfriend, he was a drug user who became frightening whenever he used them. All your imagined gun laws will do is insure someone's children will die again. Take a drive downtown and see for yourself all the drug addled brains.

You may declare gun free zones, but you cannot declare killer free zones. This tragedy has made me realize I am not even safe in my locked home, my barn, or my backyard. I dare you to request the autopsy reports of John William & Ashley Danielle Carpenter done on August 28,2000 from Sheriff Tom Sawyer of the Merced County Sheriffs Dept. Also ask him for the police interview with the killer's wife and girlfriend telling about his drug use and devil worship. Ask Detective Parsley about his fetish for horror movies produced by a John Carpenter, (no relation to us), and one he especially liked, that we have learned depicts a killing done with a pitchfork.

His last employment was as a telemarketer in Merced. If you have an honest bone in your body you will see this country is in desperate need of a change of heart not the gun laws that have been in place for over two hundred years. All the gun laws you can imagine cannot change the heart of a killer and you know it. Until man's heart is changed, we will be like sheep led to the slaughter without our weapons of defense.

May you stand before God and man as my two precious grandchildren's killer if you pass any more gun legislation that will make me a felon should I own a handgun or any other gun for that matter.

Sincerely,

Mary Carpenter
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Tallpine

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2012, 04:15:58 PM »
We never locked anything up.  Our girls knew to leave things alone.

They first started shooting I think at age 10.  They never had any toy guns or BB guns.  Only reason they didn't start with real guns sooner is they weren't big enough.

One or the other was carrying on hikes out here in the woods by about 16.

I bought them each a gun when they left home.
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2012, 01:50:20 AM »
It is far better to gun proof a kid than to try to kid proof a gun.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

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ArfinGreebly

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2012, 02:10:02 AM »

One troubling thing:  ". . . get the family gun."

"The" as in just one?

That kinda bites.  I'm thinkin' "the family gun" needs to be more like "one of the family guns."
"Look at it this way. If America frightens you, feel free to live somewhere else. There are plenty of other countries that don't suffer from excessive liberty. America is where the Liberty is. Liberty is not certified safe."

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2012, 04:49:20 AM »
No, it should be "Get the <whatever room you're in> gun"
No Child Should Live In Fear

What was that about a pearl handled revolver and someone from New Orleans again?

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2012, 05:53:17 AM »
He went after to find her? Yeah, I'm sure he just wanted to steal some conveniently placed laptops or jewelry.
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mtnbkr

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2012, 07:06:18 AM »
No kids here, but I intend to return any of mine that I don't trust with guns by age 13 as "defective" and get a refund or a new one. =)

Kids have a funny way of throwing a wrench into your plans.  I'm always amused at the non-parents who boast about how their kids will act.  It's not like training a dog... :)


We never locked anything up.  Our girls knew to leave things alone.

They first started shooting I think at age 10.  They never had any toy guns or BB guns.  Only reason they didn't start with real guns sooner is they weren't big enough.

One or the other was carrying on hikes out here in the woods by about 16.

I bought them each a gun when they left home.

My kids don't mess with my guns, but I still don't live them unlocked.  The aftermath of them doing something unexpected is too much of a risk for me.  I've made it clear to them (9yo and 4yo) that they're welcome to see and touch my guns whenever they want, but ONLY if they ask first.  I will gladly open the safe and pull a gun out for them to see if they're so inclined.  I've taken the 9yo to the range a few times already.  She love shooting the Bearcat even if she can barely cock the hammer. 

I have a cute carved holster for the Bearcat.  On day, I hope she wears it while we're out in the woods together. :)

It is far better to gun proof a kid than to try to kid proof a gun.

I prefer both.  A lock reacts less randomly than the average small child's brain.  When they get old enough (and mature enough), they'll be given access to the safe keys, but even then the guns will remain locked up when not in use.

FWIW, I follow CorneredCat's methodology regarding kids and guns:
http://www.corneredcat.com/article/kids-and-guns/the-first-lesson/

Well, follow is the wrong word, I was doing something very similar before I ever read the post.  It seems common sense to me that you need to make a gun as boring and commonplace as a hammer by frequent supervised exposure.

Chris

geronimotwo

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2012, 09:19:34 AM »
i agree with chris on this.  it takes both a lock and education for young children.  i feel very comfortable with my big girl having access to guns, but the little is still a bit random in her actions.  also, i have very little faith in others teaching their kids properly.

good job by the mom and the daughter.  i am curious what caliber she used, as it appears to have gone through the door, a shoulder/arm, and penetrated sheetrock on the other side of the room (or perhaps the bullet was dug out of the sheetrock?). 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 09:29:47 AM by geronimotwo »
make the world idiot proof.....and you will have a world full of idiots. -g2

Perd Hapley

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2012, 09:34:06 AM »
FWIW, I follow CorneredCat's methodology regarding kids and guns:
http://www.corneredcat.com/article/kids-and-guns/the-first-lesson/


Sounds pretty good, I guess. But she's wrong about one thing. Picking up a gun is exciting and attractive. So there.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tallpine

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2012, 01:49:43 PM »
Back when our girls were little, I didn't have people on the internet (Algore hadn't invented it yet) telling me I should lock up my gun(s).

I grew up with an unlocked gun in the house, and never bothered it.  Once on an OK highway at night, I crawled through the "boot" between pickup cab and camper to get the gun when a couple guys tried to hijack us.  Funny, they lost interest and let us go on by after that ...  =| 

DGU  ???
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Perd Hapley

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2012, 01:55:41 PM »
Defensive Gun Use, I think.
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tallpine

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2012, 02:02:41 PM »
Defensive Gun Use, I think.

 :facepalm:

So was it, or not  ???

No shot fired, not even pointed at anyone.  But somehow after I crawled into the camper and back to the cab, they desisted trying to stop us.  The dash lights were on bright, so I think they could see it was just a couple women and a kid.
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

Tuco

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2012, 02:23:25 PM »
innernet
Blah blah DGU blah.....

Tallpine
 WTF is DGU?

Fistful, trying to be helpful,
Defensive gun use, I think.

 :-*

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MrsSmith

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2012, 04:45:30 PM »
I grew up in a house with no handguns but plenty of rifles and shotguns, none of them locked, and my brother and I managed not to kill ourselves or anyone else. I've never locked a gun either, though once the boys started getting old enough to snoop, I did hide all of my weapons in secure locations that were still easily accessible to me. My hiding spots were never discovered - tampon box, and other places they'd rather die than look in.

I regret to say that I didn't teach either of my boys about guns though. The oldest is just now (at 22) getting to the age where I trust him to be responsible and take it seriously, and the youngest (20) isn't anywhere near there yet. My daughter (also 22) and I go shoot together every chance we get.
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erictank

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2012, 05:04:03 PM »
Step-kids 1 and 2 are in their mid and late teens, respectively, and recently graduated NRA's Basic Pistol class (along with their mom). Prior to that, I did a VERY basic safety run-through when Dad's gun came to me, and after discussing it with Lori we decided that both were mature enough to be trusted with the combo to the safe-box, to be used only in an emergency.

zxcvbob

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2012, 08:24:06 PM »


Mary Carpenter
April 20,2001

North Carolina General Assembly
To Whom It May Concern,

To my understanding you are debating the passage of laws requiring trigger locks and mandatory storage of guns. I am a second generation resident of the State of California, a mother and a grieving grandmother. I wish to express to you how trigger locks and mandatory storage laws in the State of California affected my family. I hope my testimony may save someone in your state from sharing the pain we must now endure for the remainder of our lives. No law you can pass will keep the irresponsible from shooting accidents or a felon from stealing a gun. I am enclosing a portion of a letter I wrote to my own state legislators concerning the constant progression of laws restricting our guns in my state.

Depending on whether or not you truly care, you may or may not recognize my name. I am the paternal grandmother of the two children who were brutally murdered inside their rural Merced California home on August 23, 2000 by a stranger with a pitchfork.
[snip]

Did they even acknowledge her letter?
"It's good, though..."

HankB

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2012, 08:37:30 PM »
I grew up in a household with firearms . . . although I had a regular arsenal of toys, I never confused them with the real guns.

Let's see, my "timeline" went something like this, although there was little opportunity to shoot the "real" guns by myself, growing up in Chicago. The one strict rule was - under defined circumstances I could shoot them with Dad or by myself, but never with another kid unless Dad was there. My folks knew that the collective intellect of a group of young boys varies inversely with the number of boys in the group.

BB gun - 4 years old
.22 Rifle - 7 years old
pellet pistol - 10 or 12 years old
.22 revolver - 13 years old (for 8th grade graduation)
Many more shortly afterwards.

And you know something? I never once considered doing something nefarious . . . but of course I wasn't a gangsta, nor was I drugged with Ritalin, Luvox, or any of those other drugs prescribed to kids by pill-pushing quacks calling themselves psychiatrists.
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MechAg94

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2012, 08:44:52 PM »
I always knew where my Dad's guns were.  He would pull them out if I ever asked.

My uncle is a pipeline welder and always had a big welding rig on his truck.  He told me once years ago a couple of vans boxed him in and started slowing down.  He said he pulled his revolver in its holster out and set it on the dashboard where it was visible.  The vans pulled away and made distance pretty quick.  I think this was back before cell phones.
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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2012, 09:13:41 PM »
Did they even acknowledge her letter?

I cant remember.

as a kid in the 60's I recall no safety training other then certain knowledge of painful retribution if one of dads guns would go bang when he wasn't there to pull the trigger. I played with loaded guns but instinctively knew not to pull the trigger, I did however point them in all kinds of unsafe directions. 
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Perd Hapley

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2012, 12:27:41 AM »
I don't recall when I found out that Dad had a single-action revolver. He only used it to dispatch animals. He hid it in different places, and I found it a few times. I would look at it, and move parts other than the trigger. At the time, it just seemed heavy and very, very serious. Scary serious.
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mtnbkr

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Re: 12 year-old girl shoots home invader
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2012, 08:05:57 AM »
I was the type of kid who would fool around with a found gun.  Not because I had nefarious purposes, but because I was enamored with mechanical devices.  Still am in fact.  That's probably why I love revolvers, they're like swiss watches that go bang. :D 

My daughters are not so inclined.  My oldest knows from experience what a gun can do.  She's shot them, saw the bullets go zipping through cans, fruit, etc.  She's even knocked pins over at a pin shoot.  She's been drilled on what to do if she finds one.  She knows the 4 rules as well.  My youngest isn't as knowledgeable (only 4), but knows not to touch daddy's guns and knows a gun store is a special place (we have our own "gun store" song that she'll spontaneously sing when we go to one).  I'm quite confident I could leave all my guns strewn around the house and they wouldn't touch them.

However, the cost of being wrong is too high.  You can't unfire a bullet and you can't bring your kid back to life.  It's not a gamble I'm willing to take.

Chris