Author Topic: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan  (Read 4388 times)

HankB

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2012, 12:10:15 PM »
If Japan was on the verge of surrender I wonder why it took 2 nukes to get the point across?
You'd think if they were pretty much ready to throw in the towel already the first one would have gotten the point across.
Exactly the point I made years ago to a history professor in college. (He wasn't pleased - but had absolutely no response.) Plus the Soviets declared war on Japan after the first bomb.

. . . I still think the reason was to force Japan to surrender rather than fight to the lat man, woman and child.
Which they were quite ready to do - my Dad fought in the Pacific, and was part of the occupation forces after the surrender. He said they came across a LOT of munitions stockpiled - tunnels and caves big enough to drive a truck into, except they were packed with war material.

By that late in the war, Japan had absolutely no effective way of delivering a weapon like an atomic bomb, and no real way to get it anywhere near US held territory.
The Japs were pretty far from building an actual bomb, but as for delivery vehicles, thay had subs large enough to fly aircraft from; certainly they (the subs, not the float planes) could carry a bomb. All they'd need is one I-boat to nose up close to San Francisco or LA and bang. Even offshore, it would be . . . bad. (Remember that a good part of the weight of Fat Man and Little Boy were in the casings which contained a lot of safeties and controls - things that could be skipped if they were going to use a kamikazi sub.)

This crap has been circling the bowl for years and years.

It's called revisionist history.

Even AFTER the dropping of TWO atomic bombs on Japan there was almost a military coup to overthrow the government, seize the emperor and prevent his pre-recorded surrender message from being broadcast, and continue the war until the absolute bitter end. It was only thwarted at the last minute and almost by accident.
The History Channel had a special which covered exactly this - a DVD of The Last Mission is available which covers the final conventional bombing raid against Japan and the events around the near-coup playing out simultaneously on the ground: http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=68280&SESSID=b1050b0b86d137a52cc6443eef0f8628&v=history
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MechAg94

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2012, 12:19:40 PM »
Also, didn't we more or less leave Hiroshima nad Nagasaki off the conventional bombing target list to save them as A-bomb targets?  Those cities would have been fire bombed at minimum if we hadn't dropped the A-bomb.

Also, if we had invaded, I assume the USSR would have completed its drive in Korea so there would have been no South Korea.  Not sure what other effects we would have seen.
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K Frame

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2012, 01:25:17 PM »
'You'd think if they were pretty much ready to throw in the towel already the first one would have gotten the point across.'

You'd think that, but by all documented evidence, you'd be wrong.

The Japanese could have easily indicated that they were willing to abide by the terms of the Potsdam Declaration before the first bomb dropped, OR before the second dropped. Yet there was nothing but silence from them.

The spacing between the first and second bombs was on a set timetable and ONLY a response from the Japanese could derail it.

It was not, and never would have been, a case of "But the Japanese surrendered on 30 July! Who cares, drop the bombs! Both of them! And get five or six more!"

In fact, when the details of the Potsdam Declaration became known to the Japanese via dropped leaflets and radio broadcasts, Prime Minister Suzuki met with the Japanese press and stated that there would be NO response to the Potsdam Declaration at all. NONE.

Does that sound like a Japan that's conceptually ready to throw in the towel?


Oh, and in case you're interested, the Soviets declared war and invaded Manchuria on... August 9.

The same day as the second bomb. The two events were happening concurrently.

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Harold Tuttle

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2012, 03:35:30 PM »
I almost went out on the Keldysh in 1998 to dive on a sunk Japanese cargo sub for a natty geo story

It seems the nazis were trading heavy water for gold out in the middle Atlantic...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-52_(1943)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2012, 03:39:23 PM by Harold Tuttle »
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2012, 04:08:03 PM »
there were solid plans in place to use atomic weapons against Germany had they held out very much longer.

really? i missed that.  you think theres any truth to allegations ike spared certain parts of germany from air strikes?

found this
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/731073/posts
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2012, 04:15:52 PM »
and to give it scale
The major strategic bombing of Japan by the USAAF began in November 1944 and continued until Japan’s surrender on 15 August 1945. The US had previously executed a minor bombing raid on the Japanese capital in April 1942; this early effort gave America a victory in terms of morale, but the bombing did not begin in earnest until more than two years later. When the powerful B-29 Super Fortress bomber came into service, the Americans made full use of it, putting its capabilities to extensive use over Tokyo. In fact, nearly 90% of the bombs that fell on Japanese home soil were dropped by B-29s. Of all the sorties over Tokyo, the raid of 9-10 March 1945, codenamed Operation Meetinghouse, was the most significant, and indeed is considered the single most destructive bombing ever. Around 1,700 tons of bombs fell on the city, destroying an estimated 286,358 buildings – made largely of wood and paper – and killing an estimated 100,000 citizens or more in the resulting firestorms. When the 1,000,000 injured and made homeless respectively are added to this figure, one begins to get a small sense of the sheer scale of destruction witnessed on those terrible nights of 1945.


bolded by me
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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K Frame

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2012, 06:46:47 PM »
Regarding Ike... no.

Here's the thing. Eisenhower had to fight like hell, and came close to resigning over it, to get control of ALL US forces, including Navy and Air Force, American and British, destined for the invasion of Western France.

Eisenhower wanted to pursue the Transport Plan, which was designed to interdict German reinforcements and supplies by killing their ability to move those items towards Normandy and the coast in general in the lead up to D-Day.

The British and American air force commanders, however, wanted no part of that. They wanted to keep going after strategic targets deeper in Germany. Bomber Harris, specifically, wanted to keep pounding Berlin.

It wasn't until April 1944 that Eisenhower was given full command over the air forces, and he only kept it until I think late August when Allied forces began to break out through France.


Regarding Studs Terkel's interview with Tibbets --- I don't think it has ever been conclusively proven that there was a fourth atomic bomb anywhere near ready. That's been surmised in the past, but I've never seen any categorical proof.

The first bomb, of course, was the plutonium implosion test bomb that went into the Trinity Test. That was the prototype for Fat Man.

Little Boy was the uranium gun bomb that Tibbets dropped.

Truman alluded to the fact that the US was ready to really step things up when in July 1945 he talked about a "rain of ruin from the air the like of which has never been seen on this earth."

You have to wonder what the Japanese might have thought of that, given that they had seen virtually all of their major cities firebombed into oblivion.

Had the Japanese not surrendered when they did, it's very likely that there would have been a "breathing period" in which the US would have tightened the blockage noose and would have concentrated bombing against Japanese military targets preparatory to an invasion, and while additional atomic bombs were prepared.

Let's remember a couple of very, very important things...

This was new technology for almost everyone. Not even the Manhattan Project scientists were sure what the long-term effects were going to be. They knew that there would be radioactive consequences, but there was a lot of leeway in the estimates for how bad it would be, and for how long it would linger.

Even Oppenhimer was profoundly shocked at the power of the Trinity test. It's one thing to theorize about it, it's another entirely to see it put into practice.

For the military men who witnessed the test, it was a simple substitution in which one plane and one bomb could do the same damage as 200 planes and 25,000 fire bomblets.

The ethical questions and implications of such a new weapon often lag FAR behind the application phase. There's a direct analog to that with the employment of chemical weapons in Europe during World War I. It was only afterwards that soldiers and statesmen looked at the after effects and asked themselves if it is really worth it.

And that's where this revisionist history really gets its roots. It's easy to say, 70 years after the fact, that Japan was about ready to surrender, the atomic bombs were unnecessary, it was just revenge for Pearl Harbor, with a huge component of racism inherent in it all.

Of all of that, the one thing that is probably the most true is that there was a strain of racism in it. There had been significant anti-Asian sentiment in the United States for a LONG time, and the beatdown that the Japanese put on the United States early in the war fueled that. You can even see it in the cartoons that were shown to kids at the theaters, with things like Warner Brother's "Bugs Nips the Nips."

But I think it's incredibly wrong to say that that racism drove everything else, and that the bombs were only unnecessary.

At the time, many viewed Japanese intransigence in the face of overwhelming American military superiority with an incredible amount of horror. Take a look at the casualty figures throughout the war as the US got closer and closer to the Japanese home islands -- instead of dwindling as you might expect as the enemy gets closer and closer to defeat, they kept spiraling upward.

I forget who it was who, after the war, said that his personal estimates for the first week of the invasion of Japan proper would be 25,000 Allied (primarily American) dead and upwards 100,000 wounded, with virtually no end in sight to casualty figures like that for at least 6 months to a year.  

As I noted earlier, the military struck half a million Purple Hearts in preparation for the invasion, and more than a few thought that that wasn't going to be enough by the time all was said and done.

Can you imagine being the president and being told... "Well, sir, our best estimates are that we're probably going to double the American death toll for the Pacific war in three to six months, and it's going to get a lot worse after that. Oh, and probably between five and ten million Japanese are going to die, too."




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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2012, 06:53:32 PM »
that makes sense

like i said the first bomb i woulda dropped its the second that makes a feller wonder.   had truman actually seen the effects?   and most japanese i know aren't all bent over the bomb.  you play the game you take the consequences.


be warned  if you start a search in that area you run across sites that make truthers seem real well grounded in reality  the conspiracy nuts are everywhere
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Waitone

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2012, 08:01:46 PM »
http://www.pearlharborsurvivorsonline.org/html/Invasion%20Plans.htm

A brief summary of invasion plans as viewed from both sides.
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K Frame

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2012, 10:08:19 PM »
"like i said the first bomb i woulda dropped its the second that makes a feller wonder.   had truman actually seen the effects?"

Had Truman seen the effects? How could he have? No one had ever seen the effects of an atomic blast on a population center before. Right there you're back to the theoretical of what a new weapon MIGHT do. It's pretty easy to visualize the effects of a 1 ton bomb. But how can anyone adequately visualize the effects of a 20,000 ton bomb?

So, what would you have done?

Gone back to strictly firebombing? You ever see the results of US firebombing raids? Here's a site that discusses it to some detail: http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/japan/fire.html

Where is the ethical and moral dividing line?

And, why would a return to firebombing be any more convincing for the Japanese that they needed to surrender? Virtually every major city in Japan had, over the span of 8 months, been turned into fire-charred wastelands. Hundreds of thousands of Japanese were dead, possibly over a million, with millions homeless.

So, then, you're back to the invasion option.

Only, against many of the defenses that the Japanese are preparing on the expected invasion zones, firebombing will have little to no effect.

One only needs to look to Iwo Jima to see how limited and ineffective traditional naval and aerial bombardment is against an enemy that is dug into protected bunkers and caves. That's why the United States had active plans to use chemical weapons - they would be far more effective against caves and bunkers than conventional explosives.

Where's the ethical and moral dividing line there? Chemical weapons. Better than atomic weapons? Worse? The same? Once again, the long-term effects of atomic weapons were not known.

I've tried repeatedly in this thread to indicate the Japanese response to American demands for surrender in the face of overwhelming, catastrophic defeat. More than a few in the Japanese military and government held that it would be FAR better for every member of the Japanese race to be wiped off the face of the earth rather than suffer the indignity of surrender.

Even AFTER Hirohito made the decision to accept Allied terms there was an attempted coup designed to CONTINUE the war to the point expressed above.

I'm really interested in hearing your version of what you would have done, short of dropping the second atomic bomb, that would have convinced the Japanese that it was time to surrender, when 8 months of firebombing, the closure of virtually every port (Operation Starvation) through submarine and mine warfare, and the growing spectre of a full fledged invasion wasn't having that much of an effect in bringing the war to an end.

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HankB

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2012, 08:54:47 AM »
. . . Of all of that, the one thing that is probably the most true is that there was a strain of racism in it. There had been significant anti-Asian sentiment in the United States for a LONG time, and the beatdown that the Japanese put on the United States early in the war fueled that. You can even see it in the cartoons that were shown to kids at the theaters, with things like Warner Brother's "Bugs Nips the Nips." . . .
Perhaps a bit - we DID have the Oriental Exclusion Act of course, and then there's the unconscionable internment of AMERICAN CITIZENS who happened to have Japanese ancestry. (Unlike some, I have NO problem with the internment of Japanese nationals.) But the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor didn't raise regard for Japan and its people, and by August 1945 we knew about things like the Bataan Death March, kamikazis, the Rape of Nanking, and much more that led us to conclude the Japs weren't even rational, let alone reasonably civilized. In many ways, they seemed even worse, more brutal and sadistic, than the Nazis with their death camps, in that they didn't want to hide their actions, but gloried in them.

Oh, and as for some of the leaders - especially scientists and some generals - who opposed use of the bomb, I'd be willing to bet that they would have changed their tune if they were handed a rifle and helment and told "Congratulations - you're now in the infantry and will be in the first landing craft to hit the Kyushu beachhead in October!" (It's easy to be ethical when someone else is getting their head blown off to support your ethics.)

Dad was on a troopship when the news of Hiroshima came out - at first, the guys didn't believe it; after all, they were ARMY AIR CORPS and knew all about bombs; they thought it was some sort of a joke. But when the captain of the ship came on and confirmed it with a few more details . . . you never saw a happier bunch of guys. They'd been told that during the invasion of Japan, 1 in 3 of them probably wouldn't make it home in one piece . . . or at all. Suddenly, they had a new lease on life, and things looked a lot better; they'd see home again. There were NO repeat NO regrets about the bombings, other than "It's a damn shame we couldn't have done it sooner."
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Lee

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2012, 09:57:24 PM »
Better that THE two bombs were used to demonstrate their horrible effect, than 10,000 of them being used at a later date to prove they work. 

Was it morally wrong?  Probably....but all out war was the mode at the time.  Was it a message to the Soviets.  Yes.  Did it ultimately prevent a global nuclear holocaust (or at least delay it...knock on wood).  Who knows...but probably. 


Scout26

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Re: The REAL Reason America Used Nuclear Weapons Against Japan
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2012, 02:30:08 AM »
To answer the OP's thread title:

To end the farking war!!!


(My uncle was a Marine in the Pacific.  He was slated to go ashore in Olympic, like HankB said.  His only complaint was that didn't use them sooner.  (I know we didn't have them ready prior to, but a man can wish.)
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