Author Topic: Spooky needs help with rifle decision!  (Read 4890 times)

SpookyPistolero

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« on: July 15, 2006, 03:51:09 PM »
Howdy ladies and gents! This topic has been on my mind for quite some time now, and I wanted to get the opinions of you guys, being of a much higher cut than the general THR populace.

I've currently got a Saiga .308. I bought it with a lot of intentions, but the reality is that I know want (need?) a personal/home/homeland defensive rifle. I really like this rifle, but it's hard to afford .308 ammo with my current income. I also can't really afford to stock up on the new 20 rnd mags as I had hoped, along with a pistol grip conversion. Lastly, it's tough to justify the .308 as a personal defense rifle in an urban area.

These tumultuous times and likely upcoming political hardships for gun owners sort of put me on the clock to make a decision. I love the AK platform, and will definitely make the Saiga's replacement, if I do replace it, another AK.

I'd love even a basic SAR or even WASR but a big question mark is whether it's wise to get a 7.62x39 rifle? The recent dry up leaves one wondering how probable it is to have a reliable source of ammo deep into the future. I'd hate to give up what is a decent rifle, though in poor format and expensive to feed, for a rifle that I couldn't feed no matter what.

I'd consider the 5.45, but the same problem exists as the x39. The 5.56 would be a last option, but then you have the trouble of getting good magazines, as well as increased cost of the rifle.

So it's keep what I've got and do nothing about getting a rifle, sell it and get a basic x39 AK hoping that ammo influx levels out, or sell the saiga and find extra money for an AK in a caliber that I'm not crazy about but that is readily available.

I'm about to start a post grad program, which will put me on a very clearcut budget not leaving too much room for rifle purchases. Somehow, though, I feel a little naked without a decent long gun in the closet.

Anyone care to shed some light on the predicament? I apologize for the barely coherent rambling, but this has been bouncing around my mind for a while!

Thoughts, comments, snide remarks?
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Preacherman

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2006, 04:20:51 AM »
Spooky, perhaps it's time to change your username to "Spirit Rifleman-o"? Cheesy

Now, to get down to basics.  I totally agree with the superiority (in terms of simplicity, reliability, etc.) of the AK-47 action.  It's the world's best, bar none.  I've personally taken a guerilla's AK-47 that had been buried in mud and clay for over a year, hosed it down, kicked the bolt back, let it retract, and emptied the magazine downrange.  It "shot itself clear" of the mud and grit in the barrel, and never even blinked.  I was impressed, to say the least!

As to an effective defensive rifle, I'd suggest the following.

1.  ComBloc rounds (7.62x39 or 5.45) are available.  They're expensive, sure, but they're available.  I have a healthy respect for the 7.62x39mm., having been shot twice with it, and I know from personal experience that it's a very effective stopper.  (I'd rather not have gained the personal experience, but we won't go into that . . . )  As for the cost of the ammo - compared it to 5.56mm. lately?  In comparative terms, it's still not bad.

2.  5.56mm. has grown scarcer and more expensive, what with military consumption, raw material prices, etc.  However, there's still plenty of it out there, and decent prices can be obtained in bulk from places like Georgia Arms, etc.  (I don't recommend or use steel-cased ammo in this caliber, because of reliability issues.)

3.  .308/7.62x51mm. is a very, very good all-purpose round, probably still unrivalled if you can only have one caliber.  Prices on milsurp are getting rather higher, and will continue to do so, because most countries no longer use this caliber for their main battle rifles, only for machine-guns.  Thus, the production of this caliber around the world has decreased dramatically.  Once surplus stocks are consumed, we'll be paying commercial prices, which is Not A Good Thing if you like to shoot a lot.  I'd stock up on at least 10,000 rounds now, while the surplus is still available, if you plan to shoot much of this stuff over the next 20 years or so.

My personal choices are as follows.  My primary defensive rifles are matched twin AK clones in 7.62x39mm.  I use the ComBloc ammo for training and plinking, and I have a few boxes of premium ammo with US bullets for use if the S really does HTF.  Backup mags will carry milspec ball, as I know from experience that this does a pretty decent job.  It's also powerful enough (think .30-30-equivalent ballistics) that I could hunt deer with it if necessary.

My backup defensive rifles are AK clones in 5.56mm.  This US ammo is more readily available than 5.45mm., and if the S really does HTF, it will still be obtainable from local sources, whereas ComBloc calibers may not fall so easily to hand.  I use these rifles for a lot of training, too, because frangible "green" ammo is freely available in this caliber where lead restrictions apply.  My "real deal" mags are loaded with Hornady TAP 55gr. ammo, which is very unlikely to overpenetrate, and I would consider this combo of an AK in the US caliber to be prime for urban and suburban use in the absence of decent low-penetration 7.62x39mm. ammo.  I regard the 5.56mm. as inferior to the 7.62x39mm. as a "stopper" (again, based on actual personal combat experience), but I don't plan on shooting a BG once only with either caliber! Cheesy

I also have a Saiga in .308.  It's the 22" barrel version, as yet unconverted to full AK standard (although this is a future project when I have funds).  It's there as a heavier caliber in case I need it, and I plan on hanging on to it for use in more rural environments, where longer ranges would be the norm.  However, it's certainly overpowered for the urban and suburban environment, and I would not use it there.  Far too much risk of overpenetration.

Hope this helps.
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280plus

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2006, 05:26:03 AM »
Preacher , I already have a Bushmaster Shorty AK but would like to get another home defense rifle in a higher caliber or at least more reliable when dirty. Here in CT they won't let us play with AK-47s which would be my first choice. What would be your second choice? BTW I use the federals for plinking and I have a few hundred rounds of the GA that I need to try out now that you mention it. Smiley

I also have about 750 rounds of Leisenger's ammo left too. Are you familiar with his stuff? 75 gr hpbt manufactured by Hornaday. He stopped making it because he couldn't get once fired brass anymore and new brass is too expensive. It's the only ammo I've found so far that I could take my out of the box Bushy and call my shots at 100 yds. I have high hopes for the GA though.
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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2006, 06:12:04 AM »
Quote from: SpookyPistolero
...The recent dry up ...
Would someone please tell me to what this refers?

Preacherman

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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2006, 08:51:50 AM »
280, if you want a higher caliber than 5.56x45mm., you're effectively limited (in semi-auto rifles) to 7.62x39mm. or 7.62x51mm.  Since you can't have an AK-style rifle in CT, why not look for an AR upper in 7.62x39mm?  They're out there, I know.  Magazines can be a problem for this combination.  Other alternatives are the 6.5mm. from Alexander or the 6.8x43mm. round, but these are relatively new, and there's no guarantee that ammo will be readily available, either now or in the future.  Basically, if you get one of these, stock up on ammo right now, and plan on reloading.  The 6.5mm. has some ballistic advantages over the 6.8mm., but holds fewer rounds in the magazine, and is strictly a private venture, whereas the latter was tested by the military, and Remington was loading it commercially in limited quantities (don't know if they still are).

In 7.62x51mm., there are several choices, but I'd go for either a FAL or M14/M1 design.  The FAL would be my personal preference, particularly from DSA.

Mercedes, the "dry up" refers to the year-old shortage of ComBloc ammo at decent prices.  Used to be that you could buy a case of Wolf 7.62x39mm. for about $80, but today the same case will cost you almost double that - when you can find it.  There have been many reasons given, but I strongly suspect that the importers are deliberately bringing in less and charging more for it - there is evidence supporting this view, BTW, it's not just a SWAG.
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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2006, 09:05:33 AM »
Quote from: Preacherman
...Mercedes, the "dry up" refers to the year-old shortage of ComBloc ammo at decent prices.  Used to be that you could buy a case of Wolf 7.62x39mm. for about $80, but today the same case will cost you almost double that - when you can find it.  There have been many reasons given, but I strongly suspect that the importers are deliberately bringing in less and charging more for it - there is evidence supporting this view, BTW, it's not just a SWAG.
Thanks. I wonder what prevents someone else from starting up a new ammo-importing company and undercutting the present importers.

Matthew Carberry

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2006, 10:58:22 AM »
Thanks. I wonder what prevents someone else from starting up a new ammo-importing company and undercutting the present importers.


Startup cost, licensing and the inconvenience of dealing with Government regs on both sides of the transaction I'd imagine.
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280plus

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2006, 02:37:24 PM »
Thanks Preacher, you jogged my memory, someone else recently recommended an FAL and I had forgotten all about it. I'll be looking into it.
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Preacherman

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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2006, 03:23:16 PM »
280, it really sucks that they won't let you have an AK variant in CT.  The .308 Saiga is a superb battle rifle, and in my opinion is the absolute best value-for-money in this caliber right now.  In basic form (i.e no pistol grip, 8-round magazine, wood or synthetic furniture) it's about $350-$450, depending on the version you choose:

http://www.fbmginc.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=37&Itemid=1

Even fully tricked out in AK format (i.e. pistol grip, decent trigger, etc.) it's still a bargain at $750-odd:

http://www.fbmginc.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=101&Itemid=1

For the price of a new DSA FAL or Springfield M1A, you can get three to four of the standard Saiga's, and one-and-a-half to two of the converted ones.  The accuracy is as good, and with 20rd. magazines now available, the one advantage of the US guns goes away.

Whatever you look at, I recommend 18" as a minimum barrel length - otherwise it gets LOUD!!!
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SpookyPistolero

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2006, 03:58:25 PM »
Thanks for the thoughts!

I've 'mostly' made up my mind to sell off the Saiga and the little ammo I have for it, and then start looking for a decent SAR/WASR. Basic makes me feel warm and fuzzy. Some mags and a quick dehorning, and I'll be sound as a pound.

In four years, when I've actually got cash, I know I'll regret selling the rifle. It's just a great example of the niche it's meant to fill. The unfortunate reality is that I just can't afford that niche at this time.  

I suppose I'll just place my bet that we will always see at least some 7.62x39 coming into the country, even at elevated prices, rather than deal with a caliber that I'd be less than enthralled with which might also have the same availability problem.

Out of curiosity Preacherman, who is the maker of your defensive AK's? Did you find that you were a big fan of any particular alterations? My intentions are to pretty much leave it alone, except for the dehorning, heat-shielded handguards and some night sites.

Thanks again for helping me sort out my problem!


PS- Anyone else know the feeling I have about not having a decent rifle to fall back on? It feels like driving when you know you forgot your license at home...

PPS- Preacherman speaks the truth about the loudness of a sub-18" .308 rifle, my 16" has a big bark, and ones with a muzzle brake are just about plain uncomfortable.
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Preacherman

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2006, 06:06:14 PM »
Spooky, check your PM's on THR.
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280plus

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2006, 12:45:10 AM »
Here is a list of prohibited waepons in CT. Notice FN/FAL is on the list but not Saiga. This is good no? From what I see here I SHOULD be able to, purchase a Saiga? I think it's intersting they banned the Colt. Gee, we can make it but we can't own it. This is also the first tiome I noticed the Barret light .50 on there too. Crap, how am I going to shoot satellites down??  Tongue

I DID almost fall over when I saw the price on the FAL but then started figuring out how to put the cash together. Cheesy


Algimec Agmi
Armalite AR-180
Australian Automatic Arms SAP Pistol
Auto-Ordnance Thompson type
Avtomat Kalashnikov AK-47 type
Barrett Light-Fifty model 82A1
Beretta AR-70;
Bushmaster Auto Rifle and Auto Pistol Calico models M-900, M-950 and 100-P
Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88
Colt AR-15 and Sporter
Daewoo K-1, K-2, Max-1 and Max-2
Encom MK-IV, MP-9 and MP-45
Fabrique Nationale FN/FAL, FN/LAR, or FN/FNC
FAMAS MAS 223 Feather AT-9 and Mini-AT
Federal XC-900 and XC-450
Franchi SPAS-12 and LAW-12
Galil AR and ARM Goncz High-Tech Carbine and High-Tech Long Pistol Heckler & Koch HK-91, HK-93, HK-94 and SP-89
Holmes MP-83 MAC-10, MAC-11 and MAC-11 Carbine type
Intratec TEC-9 and Scorpion
Iver Johnson Enforcer model 3000
Ruger Mini-14/5F folding stock model only
Scarab Skorpion SIG 57 AMT and 500 series
Spectre Auto Carbine and Auto Pistol
Springfield Armory BM59, SAR-48 and G-3
Sterling MK-6 and MK-7
Steyr AUG Street Sweeper and Striker 12 revolving cylinder shotguns USAS-12; UZI Carbine, Mini-Carbine and Pistol
Weaver Arms Nighthawk
Wilkinson "Linda" Pistol
or
A part or combination of parts designed or intended to convert a firearm into an assault weapon, or any combination of parts from which an assault weapon may be rapidly assembed if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.
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Preacherman

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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2006, 05:54:08 AM »
No joy, 280 -

Quote
Avtomat Kalashnikov AK-47 type
The Saiga falls under that "type", so it's verboten in CT.
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280plus

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2006, 06:08:55 AM »
Crap, now I gotta move...

Sad
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roo_ster

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2006, 08:57:07 AM »
280:

Five letters: CETME
Regards,

roo_ster

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280plus

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2006, 09:34:54 AM »
I'll ask around, thanks...

I COULD always go AK-74. Thoughts?
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brimic

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2006, 02:16:24 PM »
I would suggest an M1 garand, but M2 ball ammo isn't exactly cheap or easy to find.
A good alternative might be a Hakim, it fires 8x57 ammo which is easily available, very powerful, and cheap, the rifle itself will cost you about the same as a midrange quality AK.

Edit: oops nevermind, just noticed that you already had a .308.  The WASR would probably be a good rifle, There is no shortage of 7.62x39 in my area, though it isn't being sold at 'give-away' prices anymore.

Might you consider a scattergun?  If society does breakdown, there will be shotgun ammo everywhere, especially 12 guage, and its a very versatile gun. Better yet, a saiga-12?
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SpookyPistolero

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« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2006, 06:51:47 PM »
Quote from: 280plus
I'll ask around, thanks...

I COULD always go AK-74. Thoughts?
If you mean could you get the AK-74 in CT, then it's still a 'no'. If it can be described as a kalashnikov action type, you can't get it. No loop holes through that one. You've still got options for a good rifle, just not of that type.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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Spooky needs help with rifle decision!
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2006, 07:58:52 PM »
I second the shotgun idea.  My primary defensive long gun is a Mossberg 500A.
I keep my Mosin-Nagant M44 ready to roll as well, in case something really bad needs shooting.

280plus

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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2006, 01:07:22 AM »
Actually we CAN own the AK-74 model. I almost bought one a while back out of a gunshop but, figuring the 5.45 is similar in performance to the 5.56, I was holding out for something in a heavier caliber. I posted some questions about it on THR then and was told the action is every bit as reliable as the 47 which appeals to me. I was recently talking about all this with some friends and the thing that sticks in my mind is the statement, "The M-16 is better but it's still a POS. If it's not meticulously clean it won't work." And I fully trust this particular person's opinion on things like this. Honestly, if I didn't have so many ties here I'd move to Vermont in a heartbeat. It's too crowded around here anyways.

Don't ask me why they differentiate between the 47 and the 74 in their silly law. I would GUESS it's about the heavier caliber of the 47.

I was thinking about the new SOCOM M1 (Springfield Armory?) but really don't want to spend that much if I don't have to. It IS a nice weapon though. :drool:
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