Turn in disability cheat?

[Guest]

The money he's getting was stolen in the first place. It cannot be traced back and returned to the original owner(s). It is up for grabs. He is getting some of the stolen money back from the state. Leave him be.

Every dollar he steals from the system is another dollar that will be stolen from the populace to pay for all of the other government projects.

One can't "steal" from the state; a thief's booty is not his property. If the state steals more in the future, blame them, not the victim class.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi, that's getting close to an ad hominem. But I won't take that bait.

Didn't some guy, a long time ago, find something chiseled on a rock about not bearing false witness?  I think that also applies to bearing witness where one is not certain of the facts.

I can't share your trust that the government will always do the right thing in such cases. I would rather give my fellow man the benefit of the doubt.

- NF

No guy ever found anything chiseled on a rock about bearing false witness.  Sorry.
As for giving the benefit of the doubt, that is not the question here.  Nor is it for the person to decide whether the guy is cheating or not.
I dont know whether the gov't will do the "right" thing or not.  I do not know what the right thing is in this case.  Neither do you.  That is the whole point: turn it over to someone with the power and authority to make that judgement.  If they screw up, the guy still has due process.  If you want to allege that gov't will always screw up and is out to get everyone, then thanks for the conversation.

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

The money he's getting was stolen in the first place. It cannot be traced back and returned to the original owner(s). It is up for grabs. He is getting some of the stolen money back from the state. Leave him be.

Every dollar he steals from the system is another dollar that will be stolen from the populace to pay for all of the other government projects.

One can't "steal" from the state; a thief's booty is not his property. If the state steals more in the future, blame them, not the victim class.

The state steals this booty on behalf of the "victim class" so that these "victims" can  enjoy the benefits of unearned and undeserved wealth.  The state that steals the booty and the "victims" that keep it are equally complicit.

Note that whenever the state doesn't have enough money to cover its "obligations" (by whomever's definition) the solution is always to raise taxes and steal even more.  Money paid out to this disable guy is money the state can't make available to cover its other "obligations".  If this guy is fleecing the state, then he is increasing the liklihood that the state will have to engage in greater amounts of theft from the people.

Ask the guy what his disability is.  Ask him how he is able to lead a normal life while being unable to perform his job.  If he has a fair explaination then let him be.  If not, then he's nothing but a bum and a liar and a thief - turn the lousy bastard in.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

I do not know what the right thing is in this case.  Neither do you.  That is the whole point: turn it over to someone with the power and authority to make that judgement.  If they screw up, the guy still has due process.  If you want to allege that gov't will always screw up and is out to get everyone, then thanks for the conversation.

First, turning the guy in is a betrayal of the friendship (however slight) that he's shown.

Second, by doing so, you eliminate your last chance to prevent a potential wagonload of unnecessary trouble. What's wrong with simply asking the guy what his disability is?

Third, I personally find the role of ratfink distasteful. Besides which, it's not in my job description. If you can live with it, then I guess we're just wired differently.

Finally, given what the 2A is for, it seems wierd to me that so many armed citizens here will trust governments before they trust themselves.

- NF

[The Rabbi]

First, turning the guy in is a betrayal of the friendship (however slight) that he's shown.

Second, by doing so, you eliminate your last chance to prevent a potential wagonload of unnecessary trouble. What's wrong with simply asking the guy what his disability is?

Third, I personally find the role of ratfink distasteful. Besides which, it's not in my job description. If you can live with it, then I guess we're just wired differently.

Finally, given what the 2A is for, it seems wierd to me that so many armed citizens here will trust governments before they trust themselves.

- NF

The first point is no argument whatsoever.  The guy is a casual acquaintance, nothing more.
I dont understand the second point.  The person making the call will not have any trouble whatsoever.  What's wrong with asking the guy is that, believe it or not, people do often lie.  Even people who hang out the range and can shoot bullseyes at 50 yards.
Third, I think this is really the crux of the issue.  I find the role of chiseler and swindler distateful and am happy to see such people get their just desserts.  Something is clearly less than kosher when a person who has alleged a permanant disability nontheless pursues a lifestyle that healthy people would have problems with.
I strongly suspect that if you were forced to send this man $10 a month you would have no problem whatsoever turning him in and letting some judge sort it out.  But that is the reality because people like this cost Americans millions of dollars a year in higher taxes and insurance.  
And it seems "wiered" to me that some people will see any interaction with the government as either signs of fascist tendencies or some kind of betrayal.

[jefnvk]

One can't "steal" from the state; a thief's booty is not his property. If the state steals more in the future, blame them, not the victim class.

Yeah, but you can be in posession of stolen property.  Which I can't imagine being much better.

[Werewolf]

The money he's getting was stolen in the first place. It cannot be traced back and returned to the original owner(s). It is up for grabs. He is getting some of the stolen money back from the state. Leave him be.

Every dollar he steals from the system is another dollar that will be stolen from the populace to pay for all of the other government projects.

One can't "steal" from the state; a thief's booty is not his property. If the state steals more in the future, blame them, not the victim class.

That assumes that taxation is indeed theft and that is one heck of an assumption. Without some taxation there could be no government (and as much as some would like to see that...) and no government considering man's current level of culture more than likely would mean anarchy and a return to the days of rule by the strongest.

Does anyone really want that? I think not.

Taxes are necessary. Sometimes one just cannot opt out of the group and participates in the system whether they like it or not.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

I know I'm setting myself up with a point-by-point rebuttal, but what the heck, it's a slow day...

The first point is no argument whatsoever.  The guy is a casual acquaintance, nothing more.

Then why do you hate him enough to accuse him of something that you only suspect and don't know?

I dont understand the second point.  The person making the call will not have any trouble whatsoever.  What's wrong with asking the guy is that, believe it or not, people do often lie.  Even people who hang out the range and can shoot bullseyes at 50 yards.

I can explain it for you again, but I can't understand it for you.

Third, I think this is really the crux of the issue.  I find the role of chiseler and swindler distateful and am happy to see such people get their just desserts.  Something is clearly less than kosher when a person who has alleged a permanant disability nontheless pursues a lifestyle that healthy people would have problems with.

A lot of things are clearly less than kosher. Fer instance, there is a contractor who's renovating a house down the street from me and who hasn't obtained the proper building permits. The house was an eyesore and the reno will make it look nice, I hope. He's a lawbreaker who's cost my township a hundred dollars in permit fees. Am I going to turn him in? Not on your life.

One closer to home. You just opened a gunshop. Suppose someone suspected you of some unreported income. Should he turn you in?

I strongly suspect that if you were forced to send this man $10 a month you would have no problem whatsoever turning him in and letting some judge sort it out.  But that is the reality because people like this cost Americans millions of dollars a year in higher taxes and insurance.

If I knew he was chiseling me, you're right. But if I just suspected he was, then you're wrong.

And it seems "wiered" to me that some people will see any interaction with the government as either signs of fascist tendencies or some kind of betrayal.

Oh, wow, a spelling flame. Here's a news flash: Power corrupts. Governments always try to accumulate power. If citizens always trust their governments, then they deserve what they get. I've learned through hard and bitter experience that authority in general, and governmental authority in particular, is not necessarily my friend.

- NF

[The Rabbi]

-Hatred has nothing to do with it.  I dont know the guy.  This is a theoretical, as far as this board is concerned.  Dont turn it into a personal issue.

-I doubt you could even explain it.

-There is more here than mere suspicion.  There is a downright presumption of fraud based on the available evidence. Do you think fraud ought to go unpunished, or that it is a victimless crime?

-If I were really not reporting income and someone did turn me in, I would not blame that person at all.  It would be justified.  Similarly if I were selling guns illegally and someone turned me in, it would be perfectly justified.  But if I were not and there were no circumstances warranting suspicion then I would think that person had a personal axe to grind.  Again, in our situation the guy has given ample reason to be suspicious.

-As far as your contractor, if he hasnt obtained permits then he is not only stealing but also possibly defrauding his customer by doing sub par work and endangering people.  If you dont want to turn him in, thats your business.

I dont know what your "hard and bitter experience" has been.  In general although not universally I have found that blame often lies in the mirror.

[Perd Hapley]

no government considering man's current level of culture more than likely would mean anarchy and a return to the days of rule by the strongest.

Does anyone really want that?

mercedesrules wants that; he's a professed anarchist.  

Yes, mercedes, I know, you want government without a state.

[The Rabbi]

no government considering man's current level of culture more than likely would mean anarchy and a return to the days of rule by the strongest.

Does anyone really want that?

mercedesrules wants that; he's a professed anarchist.  

Yes, mercedes, I know, you want government without a state.

I get the distinct feeling that anyone who wants anarchy has never experienced it.

[Guest]

If complete anarchy existed right now, I'd go find mercedes_rules, kick his ass and sack his house/bunker/whatever.  just as an object lesson.  I belive he is Gunkid's twin-separated-at birth

Having to hear the chaos theory every time anything even vaguely political pops up gets really old.

[Perd Hapley]

That is too funny!  But I do have to defend the merc - he's nothing like Melvin.  He's probably less annoying than I am, even.

[Monkeyleg]

This thread certainly has taken a weird turn.

There is no way for me to know what is truth and what is not. All I know is what my friend has told me. He has told me that he's been on disability since 1985, that the judge who heard his case got fed up with the city not presenting its case in a timely manner, that my friend's disabilities stem from back and neck problems suffered on the job, that he turned down a full-time job because he would have lost his disability payments, that he is going mountain biking (pictures supplied), shoveling four tons of rocks (pictures supplied), has built storage shacks in his yard (pictures supplied), and so on.

If he and I were not friends, I wouldn't hesitate to call whatever department handles such matters. I've reported people I know for a number of things: a competitor who was operating his business out of his garage in an area not zoned for business or the guy down the block who was letting drug dealers work out of his duplex, for example.

This boils down to sentiments versus a stone-cold position of reporting anyone doing something wrong. That's a pretty hard decision to make.

My wife has extreme pain in both wrists from repetive motions on her job, and I've described my own physical problems, as have others.

I've never heard this guy complain about any pain whatsoever. Doesn't mean he doesn't have it, he just doesn't mention it.

This has been gnawing at me for a couple of years now. Maybe it will just continue to gnaw at me. I don't know what to do.

[jefnvk]

Try ignoring him.

[Werewolf]

*expletive deleted*it or get off the pot as the saying goes, Monkeyleg.  Sounds like you're putting your self through some unecessary anxiety.

If you can't decide whether or not to drop a dime on the guy then flip a coin. Heads you turn 'im in; tails ya don't.

There! Problem Solved.

[Guest]

If complete anarchy existed right now, I'd go find mercedes_rules, kick his ass and sack his house/bunker/whatever.  just as an object lesson.  I belive he is Gunkid's twin-separated-at birth

Having to hear the chaos theory every time anything even vaguely political pops up gets really old.

You wouldn't hit an old man wearing glasses, would you?